Battle Fitness: Does the BFT really prepare us for battle?

[rmc_wannabe]

A shoot after the march would not be a PWT. It would simply confirm the zero of the weapon and that the soldier can group 5 shots according to CFOSP. I do beleive the standard is still 100mm group size while firing from 100 meters.

Seen, that makes more sense to me 

 

[Fusaki]

I like the BFT for use as the lowest common denominator for fitness in army units.  Every person and every trade should qualify on it at least once a year.

Personally, I've always found the fireman's carry a little silly.  It has always seemed that if you can march 13kms with a 45lb ruck, then carrying someone of equal weight for 100m should be no problem at all.  I've never felt challenged by it, anyways.

The actual 13km march portion on the other hand, provides a baseline standard of fitness that EVERYONE should be able to do on any given day.

Combat arms units need to adopt a tougher standard then the rest of the army and therefore the standard BFT is not sufficient for establishing a minimum level of fitness.  Its not uncommon for guys to carry and fight with 70-90lbs in their FFO alone under the 60 degree kandahar heat. IMHO this justifies an increase of the current 45lb BFT weight to the adoption of the 77lb CSOR BFT weight for ALL combat arms pers.

These combat arms BFTs should also be conducted at least twice a year, but more preferably 3-5 times a year and combined with regular ruck marches to avoid injuries.  Conduct the BFT early on a friday morning, then when the troops are done cut them loose for the weekend.  Let guys talk and shoot the crap while they march, and allow them to adopt a looser formation then the standard "two ranks facing that way".  BFTs are just as much mental as physical and small changes like these can make a big difference.

Crossfit and ruck marches are the key components of modern battle fitness. Set the bar high.

My .02

 

[X-mo-1979]

Combat arms units need to adopt a tougher standard then the rest of the army and therefore the standard BFT is not sufficient for establishing a minimum level of fitness.  Its not uncommon for guys to carry and fight with 70-90lbs in their FFO alone under the 60 degree kandahar heat. IMHO this justifies an increase of the current 45lb BFT weight to the adoption of the 77lb CSOR BFT weight for ALL combat arms pers.

Crossfit and ruck marches are the key components of modern battle fitness. Set the bar high.

Scratch out combat trades and insert infantry.I see no purpose in me humping a 77lb ruck.It serves NO purpose in my trade.Peroid.

However I do agree with crossfit with endurance training added .I did nothing but crossfit for about 3 month's and my endurance suffered.Now I mix the both with weight training.

However the BFT show's who should not be in the army,those who don't make it.And as for the 77 lb rucksack,I aint that hard...you guys can have it.Not that I couldnt do it,I just do not see the point in rucksack march's for PT.

 

[apple]

i know in my unit they told us the have all our gear add up to 55 lbs, which is light, we don't do the digging part because we don't have anywhere to do it, i myself just did the BFT about a week ago and i have never herd of an ammo can toss or whatever it's called.

 

[blacktriangle]

Let the infantry do the 13km march leading into section attacks or urban ops training for the next several hours.

Gunners 13km to a range and practice live fire with the guns

Engineers 13km to build a bridge or blow one up

Armoured 13km followed by BBQ.

Who's with me?

 

[X-mo-1979]

Let the infantry do the 13km march leading into section attacks or urban ops training for the next several hours.

Gunners 13km to a range and practice live fire with the guns

Engineers 13km to build a bridge or blow one up

Armoured 13km followed by BBQ.

Who's with me?

Next time your higher call's us to a firebase,I'll be sure to tell them we'll be there after our hotdogs.

How about go to a tank range (a decent one) all day as a loader.I know my loader was huffing and puffing.

 

[RTaylor]

I think the BFT weeds out people and gets them to a starting point that they should be at for fitness.

There's no real training that can prepare you for combat, every person Ive talked to that's been under fire has told me that. Adrenaline, fear, anger, excitement and so on pumps through you so you don't know that you even have a pack on your back. I've even talked to a few fellas that were in Vietnam and some others in the conflicts in Africa. BFT won't prepare you for shitting your pants.

And what if your in a jungle? Or desert? Or northern climate? Or mountains?

What BFT does is give you the basic tools to cope and a pathway to higher learning. A healthy body usually leads to a healthy mind, clearer thinking and healing faster. Anyone can be in a combat situation, you don't need to be in shape to do that, but you do need to be in shape to get to the area, support yourself and your comrades, and if need be to haul ass out of the situation.

I think that you should change the title to "Does the BFT prepare us for the physical rigors of a combat situation?" 

 

[X-mo-1979]

What BFT does is give you the basic tools to cope and a pathway to higher learning. A healthy body usually leads to a healthy mind, clearer thinking and healing faster.

I agree with a healthy mind and healthy body is key.However are you saying there is a nexus between the BFT and fitness? I do not see it.

 

[RTaylor]

Not a nexus, but a correlation.

If you can do the BFT you are therefore reasonably fit, this usually makes people feel better about themselves and their body, which is a sorely missing ideal these days. Also, it helps weed out the lazy slack asses.

Im not sure how it's run these days though and from what I understand differs between units.

 

[blacktriangle]

Next time your higher call's us to a firebase,I'll be sure to tell them we'll be there after our hotdogs.

How about go to a tank range (a decent one) all day as a loader.I know my loader was huffing and puffing.

I know, I kid. I hate being in the armd reserves, but respect the stuff the regs do on a daily basis.

My only point was that the 13km shouldn't be the main feature, it should be the leadup to the actual main training event, as only then will it be an indicator of how well we perform, at least in my opinion. I know after the BFT's I've seen, most people are allowed to chill out, eat, and take care of their feet...then call it a day. At least in the reserves...

BFT doesnt seem to indicate total fitness though, I know some fat people that can do the BFT and barely pass, but could not do any pushups or run 2.4km without dying. Is that fitness?

 

[RTaylor]

To be honest Popn, are you going to be crackin off situps and pushups in combat to strike fear into the hearts of enemies, or are you going to be walking, and walking and walking and walking and walking and walking and walking? A good war is a boring war, and the 13KM stroll is a decent indication of physical fitness.

A lot of the folks that I know have told me that walking is whats mainly done, running isn't the norm unless it's a short ass haulin in a bad situation, and the BFT reflects this. Don't forget that if you are being sent overseas to a conflict you go through several months of training that's apt to get anyone back into reasonable shape.

Most of the Combat Arms trades will be able to do the BFT and laugh at it because it's a great time for a stroll. It's the other branches that may have a few issues and it weeds these folks out. You're not the only one who's seen severely overweight people, I've noticed several in Logistics / Cooks / Supply Tech and a few AF techies that probably have their stretch marks classified as refridgerator racing stripes (thats mine don't steal it, when I get back to Basic I dont want it toss in my face  :blotto: )

BTW Popn...if I poke you in the stomach do you go "Hmm Hmmm!" ?  ;D

 

[Fusaki]

There's no real training that can prepare you for combat, every person Ive talked to that's been under fire has told me that. Adrenaline, fear, anger, excitement and so on pumps through you so you don't know that you even have a pack on your back. I've even talked to a few fellas that were in Vietnam and some others in the conflicts in Africa. BFT won't prepare you for ******** your pants.

I disagree.

First off, just because someone has been in combat does not make them the SME on anything.  I know plenty of guys who were dumb before they got into a TIC, and have continued to be dumb long after.  I also know the kind of guys who say things like "It was crazy man! Nothing could prepare you for it! When the adrenaline hits you just move like your ass is on fire anyways, so it's bullshit that this young Lt cocking us on this ruck march! I know 'cause I was there man, right in the shit! And you won't be able to argue with me untill you were there too!"

I call bullshit.  While it's obvious that adrenaline gives a physical boost and blocks out pain, it's also obvious that an adrenaline boosted fit guy is going to move faster then an adrenaline boosted fat guy. No form of PT is going to induce the same response in the sympathetic nervous system that combat will.  Running hard might get your heart rate up, but it can't replicated adrenaline, tunnel vision/hyperclarity, muffled/amplified noises, time distortion, and all the other typical perceptual distortions combat can trigger in the human mind.  But good PT will train the body to react with more efficiency, helping to offset some of the mental effects of combat. You'll shoot straighter, make it through the grape field faster, and over the mud wall with minimal time exposed to the enemy.

Fitness also increases your tolerence to stress. I'd quote On Combat here, but the book is at work. Basically, stress is like water in a bathtub. Some things in your life drip water into it slowly, some critical events can dump buckets in at once. When it overflows you have a combat stress reaction, so you need to take the time to relax and drain it out before the situation gets that serious. Physical fitness makes the bathtub bigger. Among other things, it increases your confidance and sense of self worth, helping your to deal with the stresses of a combat environment.  PT doesn't just help you get to the fight. It helps you fight the fight, and it helps you live with the fight after the fact.

The BFT (and being fit) alone does not prepare anyone for battle.  It needs to be combined with the proper mental conditioning, aggressive mindset, maturity, and skills training. These elements re-enforce each other and neglect of one leads to weakness in the others.

 

[X-mo-1979]

Don't forget that if you are being sent overseas to a conflict you go through several months of training that's apt to get anyone back into reasonable shape.

Really?Since I started work up training I can count on my hand's how many times our unit has had PT.Up until last week I've done PT maybe 5-6 times.
I do it 2 hr's a day.Not on government time.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I disagree.

First off, just because someone has been in combat does not make them the SME on anything.  I know plenty of guys who were dumb before they got into a TIC, and have continued to be dumb long after.  I also know the kind of guys who say things like "It was crazy man! Nothing could prepare you for it! When the adrenaline hits you just move like your *** is on fire anyways, so it's bullshit that this young Lt cocking us on this ruck march! I know 'cause I was there man, right in the crap! And you won't be able to argue with me untill you were there too!"

I call bullshit.  While it's obvious that adrenaline gives a physical boost and blocks out pain, it's also obvious that an adrenaline boosted fit guy is going to move faster then an adrenaline boosted fat guy. No form of PT is going to induce the same response in the sympathetic nervous system that combat will.  Running hard might get your heart rate up, but it can't replicated adrenaline, tunnel vision/hyperclarity, muffled/amplified noises, time distortion, and all the other typical perceptual distortions combat can trigger in the human mind.  But good PT will train the body to react with more efficiency, helping to offset some of the mental effects of combat. You'll shoot straighter, make it through the grape field faster, and over the mud wall with minimal time exposed to the enemy.

Fitness also increases your tolerence to stress. I'd quote On Combat here, but the book is at work. Basically, stress is like water in a bathtub. Some things in your life drip water into it slowly, some critical events can dump buckets in at once. When it overflows you have a combat stress reaction, so you need to take the time to relax and drain it out before the situation gets that serious. Physical fitness makes the bathtub bigger. Among other things, it increases your confidance and sense of self worth, helping your to deal with the stresses of a combat environment.  PT doesn't just help you get to the fight. It helps you fight the fight, and it helps you live with the fight after the fact.

The BFT (and being fit) alone does not prepare anyone for battle.  It needs to be combined with the proper mental conditioning, aggressive mindset, maturity, and skills training. These elements re-enforce each other and neglect of one leads to weakness in the others.

Amen. This quote stilll makes sense. It should - of course - apply to any soldier, and not just the 'maroon beret' wearing variety:

What manner of men are these who wear the maroon beret?

They are, firstly, all volunteers and are toughened by hard physical training.As a result they have that infectious optimism and that offensive eagerness which comes from physical well being. They have "jumped" from the air and by so doing have conquered fear.

Their duty lies in the van of the battle; they are proud of this honour and have never failed in any task. They have the highest standards in all things whether it be skill in Battle or smartness in the execution of all peacetime duties. They have shown themselves to be as tenacious and determined in defence as they are courageous in the attack. They are, in fact, men apart -- every man an Emperor.

Of all the factors which make for success in battle the spirit of the warrior is the most decisive. That spirit can be found in full measure in the men who wear the maroon beret.

Field Marshall The Viscount Montgomery of Alamein

 

[geo]

well.... from a personal perspective the B in BFT stands for BASIC.... as in a basic building block.  If you can t do that, then you probably can t do whatever else your leaders expect you to do in operations.

 

[RTaylor]

I do 100% agree that being physically fit rather than a gob of out of weight fat will help much more as it allows your body to concentrate on whats needed - keeping your mind straight. If you're haulin 60 pounds of gear and 40 pounds of fat with people firing at you, you're mind also has that to work on. The tub analogy is pretty right on the mark.

You can train all you want Wonder, but it's the same with any form of extreme condition, no matter how you've been trained you don't know how you'll act. The training you've gone through will give you something to concentrate on though and that is what will help you through the rough times. No matter how fit you are, only a certain amount of people will keep a straight mind when in a tight spot and be able to use that former training.

I did Swissair 111 recovery, and everyone was briefed on the situation. We had guys there that have been fired on (some hit) in Bosnia, some that were in Africa and threatened, but when they saw the body parts laying around they lost their minds. Some psychologists did also as well as other well trained personell such as military and police. Nothing can prepare you for your initial reaction and training will only go so far, it's how they decide to use it that matters.

Personally, I still have the occasional nightmare about that callout. But again, I'm a trained counsellor with the education and experience and am personally able to cope with it.

The BFT (and being fit) alone does not prepare anyone for battle.  It needs to be combined with the proper mental conditioning, aggressive mindset, maturity, and skills training. These elements re-enforce each other and neglect of one leads to weakness in the others

I don't think that maturity and aggressive mindset are the best way to describe it, I think you could rephrase this to :

"The BFT (and being fit) alone does not prepare anyone for battle. It needs to be combined with the proper mental conditioning and attitude, positive mindset, and skills training. The mental and physical elements re-enforce each other, and to neglect one leads to weakness in the others."

Really?Since I started work up training I can count on my hand's how many times our unit has had PT.Up until last week I've done PT maybe 5-6 times. I do it 2 hr's a day.Not on government time.

If things have changed, when you're scheduled to go overseas you prep by doing exercises (not exercise) to simulate a possible combat situation. Alot of this should beat the more lazy back into some semblance of shape. My cousin goes over in a few weeks to the sandbox and he's been training for a while now, as well as several others I know ( 2 infantryman, 1 arty officer and a few NCM arty, a few medics and a sig op)who have gone over have done from 2-5 months worth of training depending on what they'll be doing over there.

And of course, different units will train differently when in regards to deployment. I'm not sure if techs and others who usually don't get put into the direct line of combat go through this.


With names like Wonderbread and Popnfresh man...it's close to my suppertime

 

[DirtyDog]

It makes me sick to see people drop out of BFTs, especially early into them.

It should be a basic requirement across the entire CF, that everyone does one once a year, with no cheating.

Can't do a BFT?  Get out of the Forces.

 

[PuckChaser]

Honestly, how hard is it to turn your brain off and walk for 2 hours with a little bit of weight on your back, baring a medical condition that probably prevents you from walking even 10 minutes?

 

[infamous_p]

Honestly, how hard is it to turn your brain off and walk for 2 hours with a little bit of weight on your back, baring a medical condition that probably prevents you from walking even 10 minutes?

Not only that... the BFT is an IBTS requirement, making it a qualification that each soldier is <i>individually</i> responsible for. Therefore, each soldier can essentially set his or her own pace and complete the BFT as fast or as slow as he or she wants, as long as it falls within that two hours and twenty-seven minute (correct me if I'm wrong) requirement.

With that being said, that should give the soldier(s) even less of an excuse to not do it; as it can be completed at his or her own individual pace...

 

[geo]

THe BFT is an IBTS requirement for Combat arms people and all Blue, Black & purple types who are posted to Green army areas.

Obviously, a 13K walk in the park is not difficult at all if that is what you've always had to do BUT, if you only did the shuttle run OR "shudder" the stairs, then 13K becomes a bit of a challenge.... it's a reality that non army types are in their 2nd year of getting used to it.