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Bayonet obsolete? Not yet, apparently -

  • Thread starter Thread starter pcain
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One less skill for soldiers to master at boot camp: bayonet training
Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling opted to discontinue bayonet training for Army recruits. After all, the last US bayonet charge was in 1951. But in the weeks since that decision, Hertling has had some pushback.


http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2010/0928/One-less-skill-for-soldiers-to-master-at-boot-camp-bayonet-training

By Anna Mulrine, Staff writer / September 28, 2010

Washington
When a US Army general made the decision recently to remove bayonet assaults from the array of skills soldiers must learn during basic training, it seemed like a no-brainer.

US troops hadn’t launched a bayonet charge since 1951 during the Korean War. And new soldiers preparing for an increasingly violent war in Afghanistan already need to learn far more skills than the 10 weeks of basic training allows, says Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling, head of initial entry training and the Army’s Training and Doctrine Command.

So he made a change, substituting skills drill sergeants reported that they wanted to teach new recruits in favor of dropping the time-honored practice of the bayonet charge.

But in the weeks since that decision, Hertling has heard about it. “Bayonet training is pretty fascinating,” he says. “I’ve been slammed by retirees.”

The objections to ending the training are occasionally practical.

In 2004, with ammunition running low, a British unit launched a bayonet charge toward a trench outside of Basra, Iraq, where some 100 members of the Mahdi Army militia were staging an attack. The British soldiers later said that though some of the insurgents were wounded in the bayonet charge itself, others were simply terrified into surrender.

Instilling such terror is at the heart of the philosophical argument for keeping bayonet training, historians say.

“Traditionally in the 20th century – certainly after World War I – bayonet training was basically designed to develop in soldiers aggressiveness, courage, and preparation for close combat,” says Richard Kohn, professor of military history at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

Bayonet training is, in short, used to undo socialization – to “basically to try to mitigate or eradicate the reluctance of human beings to kill each other,” Mr. Kohn says. It is one of the challenges in US or Western society “where we have such reverence for the individual, where we socialize our people to believe in the rule of law, and all of that,” he adds. “What you’re doing with young people is trying to get them used to the highly emotional and irrational and adrenaline-filled situations in which they are liable to find themselves whether they are within sight of the enemy or not – and the reluctance to take a life.”

Hertling, for his part, has stood firm. “What’s interesting,” he says, “is if bayonet training is that important and it’s the centerpiece of everything we do, why is it the only place it’s taught is at basic training?

“If it’s that important, you’d think all the operational units would have bayonet assault courses.”

The fact is, there are more important things to teach during a time of war, Hertling adds. In a counterinsurgency fight such as Afghanistan, “You carry an M-4 carbine strapped around your chest,” he says. “You can’t do much with a bayonet.”
 
I'll jump out of my lane and wish for the Flame-throwers and tommohawks too.

Damn that'd be a sight to see....

Screw your Bear Cavalry, your Penguin Infantry, and your Zombie Soldiers, I raise you one KevinB with a Tommohawk and a Flamethrower!

(For those who have seen the motivational posters with the bear cavalry and such.)

NS

(Jumping back into my lane now...FLAME AWAY.....hehehehe)
 
4l6knza.jpg



http://www.themostawesomepageintheuniverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/bear-cavalry.jpg

http://www.penguinpride.com/i08/penguin_army.jpg



(Turned images into just links for the ones that have foul language in them....oops.)
 
NavyShooter said:
4l6knza.jpg



http://www.themostawesomepageintheuniverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/bear-cavalry.jpg

http://www.penguinpride.com/i08/penguin_army.jpg



(Turned images into just links for the ones that have foul language in them....oops.)

They can't be that dangerous... no bayonets attached hence no will to close with and destory... we got 'em half licked already!
 
We had a young soldier in our company who after 7 months of patrolling had finally had enough of those "cute" Afghan children.  He began patrolling with his bayonet fixed and kids stopped coming near him!  The psychological power of the bayonet on display! 
 
Haligonian said:
We had a young soldier in our company who after 7 months of patrolling had finally had enough of those "cute" Afghan children.  He began patrolling with his bayonet fixed and kids stopped coming near him!  The psychological power of the bayonet on display!

So he basically alienated and intimidated part of the local population whose trust we need because he had enough of them?  Don't get me wrong, I am not saying he had to be hugs and kisses with the kids, but usually having them around meant that the area was generally clear of the bad dudes and their explosives. 
 
Haligonian said:
We had a young soldier in our company who after 7 months of patrolling had finally had enough of those "cute" Afghan children.  He began patrolling with his bayonet fixed and kids stopped coming near him!  The psychological power of the bayonet on display!

A perfect example of the unspoken message coveyed by the bayonet: I mean business.
 
MJP said:
So he basically alienated and intimidated part of the local population whose trust we need because he had enough of them?  Don't get me wrong, I am not saying he had to be hugs and kisses with the kids, but usually having them around meant that the area was generally clear of the bad dudes and their explosives.

Too true.

Sigh...

There is dumb, and then uttery fucking stupid.



 
Haligonian said:
We had a young soldier in our company who after 7 months of patrolling had finally had enough of those "cute" Afghan children.  He began patrolling with his bayonet fixed and kids stopped coming near him!  The psychological power of the bayonet on display! 

This post has been in my head all day. [the army.ca monkey is strong]  Now this may be a stupid question but bear in mind all my 'deployments' were with fake enemy so,  wouldn't routinely fixing a bayonet for a patrol be a command function and not left to a "young soldier"?
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
This post has been in my head all day. [the army.ca monkey is strong]  Now this may be a stupid question but bear in mind all my 'deployments' were with fake enemy so,  wouldn't routinely fixing a bayonet for a patrol be a command function and not left to a "young soldier"?

Yeah... I thought it was sort of weird as well.  He wasn't in my chain of command so I'll leave it at that. I just thought it was a good example of the psychological effect of the bayonet, as daftandbarmy grasped.

MJP said:
So he basically alienated and intimidated part of the local population whose trust we need because he had enough of them?  Don't get me wrong, I am not saying he had to be hugs and kisses with the kids, but usually having them around meant that the area was generally clear of the bad dudes and their explosives. 

KevinB said:
Too true.

Sigh...

There is dumb, and then uttery ******* stupid.

Yup, maybe he scared some kids, (probably not though). Part of me agrees with the above statements, but the other part doesn't really think it matters if the kids were scared of us or not.  Its not our country/war to win, and I don't think too many of those kids give a damn about us.  I can't count the times they threw large rocks as we drove by, no matter how many times we stopped and asked them to cease throwing rocks and their elders to make them stop.
 
Haligonian said:
Yup, maybe he scared some kids, (probably not though). Part of me agrees with the above statements, but the other part doesn't really think it matters if the kids were scared of us or not.  Its not our country/war to win, and I don't think too many of those kids give a damn about us.  I can't count the times they threw large rocks as we drove by, no matter how many times we stopped and asked them to cease throwing rocks and their elders to make them stop.

Amen to that. The rules are different when you're not peacekeeping!
 
No shit its not peacekeeping, so lets just then fuck off the populace or worse?

Recipie for IED stew.

I would prefer for them to like me, okay with them tolerating or ignoring me, but to encourage them to be hostile -- dude give your head a shake.

 
KevinB said:
No crap its not peacekeeping, so lets just then frig off the populace or worse?

Recipie for IED stew.

I would prefer for them to like me, okay with them tolerating or ignoring me, but to encourage them to be hostile -- dude give your head a shake.

I agree with you Kevin, waving a bayonet at my kids will make you several instant enemies. Its counderinsurgency, not chasing the Fantasians around Germany.
 
KevinB said:
I would prefer for them to like me, okay with them tolerating or ignoring me, but to encourage them to be hostile -- dude give your head a shake.

Agreed. I never had any lost love for the general Afghan populace, but walking into a town and being instantly surrounded by kids, no matter how bratty or how many little hands tried to get into pockets, always made me feel a little more comfortable than a town where you got nothing but evil eyes.

Having kids around is like a psychological force multiplier. Alienating them only achieves alienation of yourself.
 
Beadwindow 7 said:
Agreed. I never had any lost love for the general Afghan populace, but walking into a town and being instantly surrounded by kids, no matter how bratty or how many little hands tried to get into pockets, always made me feel a little more comfortable than a town where you got nothing but evil eyes.

Having kids around is like a psychological force multiplier. Alienating them only achieves alienation of yourself.

Unless they're the kids that signal to the bombers/snipers of course!
 
I think I know which incident Haligonian us referring to; and in that particular village, insurgents would fire on us regardless of children being nearby (we had more civilian injuries as a result of their actions than friendly). If I recall correctly, the individual fixed his bayonet after the village became overtly hostile.

In my mind, I'd always keep the kids out of the way in case something happened.
 
Snaketnk said:
I think I know which incident Haligonian us referring to; and in that particular village, insurgents would fire on us regardless of children being nearby (we had more civilian injuries as a result of their actions than friendly). If I recall correctly, the individual fixed his bayonet after the village became overtly hostile.

In my mind, I'd always keep the kids out of the way in case something happened.

And now it all makes perfect sense. Its interesting how another perspective puts something into a completely different light.

Me personally, I'm all about my sweet Browning HP and carrying enough ammunition to get me through the hard times. You cant fit a bayonet to a Steyr carbine or an LMG unless you do it with a whole lot of black tape...
 
^^"Fighting requires the ability to attack their will to fight as well as their their bodies; I will still keep the bayonet"

Beautiful said Thucydides, I agree with your theory 110%
 
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