Bayonet obsolete? Not yet, apparently -

[Skinny]

Or we can just carry a pistol as a back up.....

but what backs up the pistol?

 

[Infanteer]

They skipped "Silent Kills with the Bayonet" on my BMQ....

 

[KevinB]

We actually used to teach different methods of sentry removal in Battle School -

However the fact was often neglected that you actually had to get that close undetected - and the stabbing up thru the scrotum area was recommended, as it caused so much pain the tgt usually collapsed from pain.

Kal - Neither Shughart or Gordon ran out of ammo, and the bayonet would not have helped with umpteen thousand Somalians.  Knife fighting has a limited role - but with a knife not a half assed bayonet.

Filling people with BS about the "power" of the bayonet will get a lot of troops killed needlessly - the majority of our troops are incompetant with their service weapons - we need to focus on the GunFighter to given them the confidence to use it properly and have them come out of lethal force encounters alive 

 

 

[Kal]

We actually used to teach different methods of sentry removal in Battle School -

However the fact was often neglected that you actually had to get that close undetected - and the stabbing up thru the scrotum area was recommended, as it caused so much pain the tgt usually collapsed from pain.

Kal - Neither Shughart or Gordon ran out of ammo, and the bayonet would not have helped with umpteen thousand Somalians.   Knife fighting has a limited role - but with a knife not a half assed bayonet.

Filling people with BS about the "power" of the bayonet will get a lot of troops killed needlessly - the majority of our troops are incompetant with their service weapons - we need to focus on the GunFighter to given them the confidence to use it properly and have them come out of lethal force encounters alive  

    Well, I can't argue with your post.  I wouldn't want to fight with that old brittle bayonet that is still issued, but a stronger tool, such a Coldsteel recon tanto or SRK, but I figured I sounded crazy enough in this thread that I had to draw the ine somewhere.  Like I said though, I would rather know it and not need, rather need and not know.  I still believe the knife fighting instills that warrior mentality that is lacking among some troops.

Oh thanks for the shivers up my spine by reminding me about the 'crotch kill'.  First heard of the Royal Marines using it...

 

[Michael OLeary]

From: A la bayonet, or, "hot blood and cold steel"

http://regimentalrogue.com/papers/bayonet.htm

Should bayonet training be dropped from Army syllabi? No, not necessarily. While it remains an available weapon, soldiers should be aware of its employment, but also of its limitations. Alternatively, the training of close quarter combat, including bayonet training, should be expanded and given broader scope. The intent is not to infuse a warrior spirit, for this cannot be done artificially, but to broaden the skill set and responses available to the average soldier.

First, let's update the bayonet. We continue to issue every soldier a bayonet that does not justify its own weight. Replace it with a sturdy, well-honed utility knife with a high-quality steel blade. Leave the bayonet mounting hardware on the hilt for the rare cases in which it becomes necessary. Teach the soldier how to handle a rifle and bayonet, but let's bring in a professional in improvised fighting techniques to help develop a useful combat system for it. Parade square parries and thrusts are only appropriate if the enemy has had similar instruction and is willing to fight by mutually understood rules. The Military Manual of Self-Defence (55) offers a series of aggressive alternatives to traditional bayonet fighting movements, its focus more on disabling the opponent than parrying until a clean point can be made. While not necessarily offering a full replacement to classic bayonet training, it does show that more options exist.

On possible approach is to incorporate in Army physical fitness training a structured martial arts program. A discipline can be selected to develop confidence, balance, reflexes, and close combat tactics. This program could include combat techniques; both unarmed and with a variety of weapons, including the bayonet, within a progressive format. This program could lead to every field soldier having recognized skill levels in a close quarter combat system that supports rather than confines reflexive responses in hand-to-hand combat. It should also provide advanced training and continuous skill maintenance throughout a soldier's career.

We must continue to train our soldier in close quarter combat techniques, but it should be based on a rational analysis of the purpose and components of that training untainted by the romanticism of tradition.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I agree that there is something to be said for the psychological impact of a rifle with a pointy thing on the end.  However, as an alternative, if you need a backup that doesn't depend on bullets, I'd prefer to see something like a kukri issued.  I would think the mind f*ck factor of these weapons, in the hands of troops PROPERLY trained in their use, would surpass that of a bayonet.  It also serves as a machete, axe, and has a dozen other field applications....my $.02

CHIMO, Kat

 

[Jarnhamar]

I'd prefer to see something like a kukri issued.   I would think the mind f*ck factor of these weapons, in the hands of troops PROPERLY trained in their use, would surpass that of a bayonet.   It also serves as a machete, axe, and has a dozen other field applications

We're Canadian, though.   What are the chances of a Kukri looking too agressive?

Forget the fibrals ripping off Canada, imagine the public outcry when a picture of a soldier carrying one of those suckers pop up?

 

[Kat Stevens]

Good point, Ghost. However IMHO (as always, don't want to look like an expert or anything), the Great Canadian Masses need to be educated to the fact that if we are going in harms way, we need to be able to return that harm.  If people can swallow the notion of their sons and daughters carrying a rifle, a bloody big knife shouldn't be that much of a stretch...

CHIMO,  Kat

 

[gottyfunk]

i can uderstand the reasons for having a bayonet (sorta)  i would think of it as more a transitional device. If u have a weopon failure then you transtion to the next, and so on. Makes a bit more sense to have a handgun to transtion too instead of a blade that is a p.o.s . If it being issued as a tool .................well thats what the multiplyers for. 

 

[vonGarvin]

i can uderstand the reasons for having a bayonet (sorta)   i would think of it as more a transitional device. If u have a weopon failure then you transtion to the next, and so on. Makes a bit more sense to have a handgun to transtion too instead of a blade that is a p.o.s . If it being issued as a tool .................well thats what the multiplyers for.    

Let's not forget that in a close in battle, there may not be time to get your handgun out.  If you are beyond bayonet range but within handgun range, then chances are you can seek cover and remedy the fault with the rifle.
Let's not forget the psychological effect of the bayonet on both the user and the intended victim.  There is nothing like the gleam of a bayonet shining in the dawn light to get troops motivated, and nothing worse to morale than a group of screaming soldiers coming at you, all to a man with a bayonet pointed seemingly at your throat.  So, let's not poo poo the bayonet.

 

[KevinB]

Let's not forget that in a close in battle, there may not be time to get your handgun out.  

:

I can draw and fire pistol much faster than someone can draw a bayonet and use it effectively.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

He may be refering to having the bayonet already fixed prior to the enemy encounter.

 

[GO!!!]

The bayonet also has other uses, like the control of PWs and crowds. It is very intimidating and not necessarily lethal.

We do need a new one though.

 

[vonGarvin]

:

I can draw and fire pistol much faster than someone can draw a bayonet and use it effectively.

A bayonet already fixed on a rifle and pointing at your head will make you submit faster than a pistol.  Now, suppose you have body armour on, a rifle in hand, it's hot, etc, etc and your rifle jams just as you enter a room and see Tommy and Timmy the Terrorist in the room.  Will you drop the rifle, fumble for the pistol and then go shooting?  Or, with bayonet already fixed, use it to stab Tommy in the throat and then club Timmy into submission?

I know this is rhetorical, and we could both "what if" this to death.  My point is that the bayonet is not obselete.  Does the CF need a new bayonet?  Yes, because the one we have is brittle.  Would I rather a pistol than a bayonet?  I don't know.  Would I like both?  CERTAINLY. 

The point is that in even a block two environment, a bayonet fixed to a rifle sends a psychological message to "them": "We're ready and we're agressive".  It has it's uses.

 

[Kal]

A bayonet already fixed on a rifle and pointing at your head will make you submit faster than a pistol.   Now, suppose you have body armour on, a rifle in hand, it's hot, etc, etc and your rifle jams just as you enter a room and see Tommy and Timmy the Terrorist in the room.   Will you drop the rifle, fumble for the pistol and then go shooting?   Or, with bayonet already fixed, use it to stab Tommy in the throat and then club Timmy into submission?

I know this is rhetorical, and we could both "what if" this to death.   My point is that the bayonet is not obselete.   Does the CF need a new bayonet?   Yes, because the one we have is brittle.   Would I rather a pistol than a bayonet?   I don't know.   Would I like both?   CERTAINLY.  

The point is that in even a block two environment, a bayonet fixed to a rifle sends a psychological message to "them": "We're ready and we're agressive".   It has it's uses.

Urban ops are tight enough without hindering yourself further by adding another 1/2 foot length to your weapon.  I would hazard a guess to assume the houses in the middle east are smaller than ones here at home and would only exagerate the problem.  As to fumbling with a pistol if your rifle goes down, well, you need more training then.  A transition from rifle to pistol can be done very quickly, in a matter of a couple seconds really.  As to slotting the guy while fixed, is good in theory, the enemy will not likely die immediately and from only one stab.  Flipside also, having the baynet fixed is a longer range weapon, while good if fighting someone unarmed or with a similiar weapon, in the close confines of CQB, the enemy may be so close as to clear your unweidly weapon out of the way and kill you, therefore having pistol back up is essential.

 

[KevinB]

vonGarvin - I understand your point  - but you won't see ME doing anything in a close quarter battle environment with a bayonet fixed - the C8SFW is long enough - let alone a C7A2 - without the bayonet attached.  Heck some of the houses in Afghan - the pistol a light and no kit was the only means of navigation...

You can transition seamlessly from carbine to pistol - as your access stage to the pistol with your strong side - your weak is rolling the carbine and stowing it against the body.  During withdraw your weak should be able to move back and be ready to find the strong and puch out to the tgt.

My point is I don't see a need for the bayonet in our current focus and feel that using it beyond a utility knife is filling our troops with antiquated illusions that will get them killed - it is the same idea for those who feel that cocking the weapon is part of the escalation of force  :  Having done Cyprus that was relevant then - however our new AO's are NOT.

I won't begrudge troops wanting bayonets - but I woudl not be foisting them on them either...  Tool inthe tool box use it as you see fit.

 

[GO!!!]

If even one of you can point out an infantry unit with pistols for all, time and $ for weapon transition trg, and short barrelled rifles for all, please inform me, as I want to go there!

Until then, my bayonet stays on my kit!

 

[KevinB]

GO!, for the last three years I have always had a pistol in addition - C6 gunner, Sec 2i/c, Wpn Det Cdr, and Section Commander. For tours we seem to be able to rangle C8's.  The JTF have run transition ranges for 1 and 3VP - continuation training is the unit responsibility, since both units has a number of Hill retirees it should not be a problem to find a SME.  I train/shoot on my own since I LONG ago gave up with the CF ever getting/keeping me at a competent level.
Any training/course I have taken with "higher" level instruction tend to disregard the bayonet.

I have been threatend overseas with a bayonet and it was all I could do to stop myself from laughing.

 

[GO!!!]

GO!, for the last three years I have always had a pistol in addition - C6 gunner, Sec 2i/c, Wpn Det Cdr, and Section Commander. For tours we seem to be able to rangle C8's.

Good! so what about the other 20 guys in the platoon? As I said, not enough pistols.

C8 - good, as long as you only deploy in pl, coy size - as I said, not enough C8s

The JTF have run 2 x 12 man serials - 2 yrs ago, and as I said, not enough ammo for transition trg - or its continuation

As for your "higher" trg, how much of it required you to guard violent prisoners in a field environment for several hours?

If you really were threatened with a bayonet and laughed, it would have been REALLY funny if the guy stuck it on the left side of your ballistic plate and killed you, as recently happened in Iraq.

AND the JTF does alot of things we cant replicate in a light infantry unit.

 

[gottyfunk]

So good issues have been brought up. Especially in mout, will a bayonet properly defeat body armour ? what happens if u hit a trauma plate ? gonna have enough time to go for unprotected area?. With a side arm you could try a double to center and then to head/face or butt stroke to the face. I guess military sop is what need modifying , but being a knife nut the current blade sucks except as a door stop.