Be in shape when you arrive on course...

[Haggis]

The simple answer to that is, "different terms of service."  Being in shape is in my job description.  Civilian employees do not suffer adverse career action by failing to pass a PT test.  If the CF is going to impose a requirement to be fit upon me, then the CF is obligated to provide me with both the time and the equipment to maintain an acceptable level of fitness.  When Treasury Board imposes a  fitness requirement on members of the Public Service, then they can argue for time and equipment through the collective bargaining process.  Until then, deal with it (admittedly, I try ot be more diplomatic when arguing this to a new civilian supervisor).  So far I've been lucky.  I too work at NDHQ and I've never had a problem with this.  In fact, when I leave work early to play hockey in a CFSU(O) sponsored league, it's not for fun.  It's part of my CF approved fitness program.  It it also worth noting that CF members are not employees of the Department of National Defence

I see that you have probably read an e-mail I sent.  ;D  After the second time facing this dilemma (this time precipitated by a Public Servant who submitted a grievance) I developed a template e-mail quoting chapter and verse of various DAOD, CDS guidances, CANFORGENs etc. Consequently,  I have fought the battle and won on every occasion.

However, it gets tedious when the ground needs to be re-taken every time a new Director, DG or ADM arrives and the "chain of command" tries to rein us into "the Business" and away from "the military".

It's also a bit disheartening to see CF members at NDHQ who use this as an excuse to not do PT and, further, get "EXCUSED" on thier PERs as a result.

 

[Jarnhamar]

It's also a bit disheartening to see CF members at NDHQ who use this as an excuse to not do PT and, further, get "EXCUSED" on thier PERs as a result.

You're in better shape than most of the troops in the regiment. It's apparent on marches, pwt3, ex's etc and the troops see that.
I can't see soldiers at NDHQ caring about being in shape because they probably don't see a reason why they have to be. No one is looking up to them, no one is judging them.
Kinda pisses me off, I have to fight to get time for the gym (even class B I need to pay for my own membership) and these NDHQ types have access to a free gym, permission to go and yet choose not too.

Is it still a rule that someone cannot be promoted unless they pass the physical fitness test?

Also, without trying to be a smartass, there are some very very VERY obese soldiers in the Canadian Forces. Like, epic sized.
Clearly they cannot pass a fitness test, be it a run or the (more applicable) BFT.  Do they face any repercussions?  Are they put on a sort of boot camp workout where they have to loose X amount of weight by X date or are they just left to their own?  A friend of mine's husband was a mechanic in the US army and after being put on a probation for being over weight and failing to get in shape, they kicked him out of the army.
Do we have anything like that?

 

[Haggis]

Is it still a rule that someone cannot be promoted unless they pass the physical fitness test?

Ys, it is.  The minimum standard required for promotion is the EXPRES test.

Also, without trying to be a smartass, there are some very very VERY obese soldiers in the Canadian Forces. Like, epic sized.
Clearly they cannot pass a fitness test, be it a run or the (more applicable) BFT.  Do they face any repercussions?  Are they put on a sort of boot camp workout where they have to loose X amount of weight by X date or are they just left to their own?  A friend of mine's husband was a mechanic in the US army and after being put on a probation for being over weight and failing to get in shape, they kicked him out of the army.
Do we have anything like that?

We have DAOD 5023-2 which sets similar conditions.  You can get released for not being fit.  I have heard that it has been successfully applied but I have not (thanklfully) seen it personally yet.

Where I work - now - the Director's expectation (a Capt (N)) is that all staff will either complete the BFT or get EXEMPT on the CF EXPRES.  He does it and so do we.  there is a culture of fitness in my Directorate.

 

[mariomike]

We have DAOD 5023-2 which sets similar conditions.  You can get released for not being fit.  I have heard that it has been successfully applied but I have not (thanklfully) seen it personally yet.

For reference:
http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5023-2-eng.asp

 

[Eye In The Sky]

EITS,

Thank you for the insight into the other side of the fence.  It's just inconceivable for me to imagine a boss looking at you disapprovingly when you tell them you want to do PT.  Both my OC and CO are unbelievably fit and as I mentioned above my culture is the complete opposite of what you're describing.

At least you seem to claim it's not the entire AF, just unit dependent. 

To add,

What I see at my Wing and Sqn is just that, only one small part of the AF.  I've only worked on 2 Wings so far.  From what I gather though, PT is not as structured or organized like Army units, and I'd go as far to say in my (limited) experience in AF units, there is not as much of a 8-4 workday as I saw in garrison life on the green side.  The FLYPRO dictates alot of personnel/time resources, people are on shifts, stand-by, weekends, what have you.  Therefore, it seems that the majority of PT is left to the individual responsibility.  Where I am now, if you have a showtime for 0830, its up to you if you want to get some PT in before your flight.  We have a few guys who do NO PT, and a few guys who don't miss a day.  Having said that, of course everyone has to pass the EXPRES test, as well as their yearly aircrew medical.  BMI, waist circumference and the like are still used on us. 

:2c:

 

[davidsonr_91]

I don't get it cause at the start of this article it says that those candidates who failed the test were released but in the DAOD that was provided above says that those who do not meet the standard will be placed on remedial PT for 12 weeks until the standard is met and everything will be good as long as they don't fail it twice in a row.

Any clerification? 

And there is a difference between a person who didn't prepare cause they were lazy and someone who maybe was off pt for a while because they had a injury and coundn't do pt but wanted to.

 

[PMedMoe]

They weren't released, they were ceased training, meaning they could not continue on the course they had been sent on.

 

[vonGarvin]

Any clerification? 

All candidates for courses conducted at the Infantry School must be fit In Accordance with a certain standard.  That standard varies by course: in some cases, it's the CF ExPres Test, in others, it's the LFCPFS.  The candidates I mentioned were on courses for which being fit in accordance with the CF ExPres Test was a prerequisite.  Just as a person must be qualified certain things before attending certain courses, and just as you need to have completed a previous grade in school, so too must these candidates meet this prerequisite. 
These candidates, not having met the prerequisite, were not allowed to continue training.  The message I am trying to send is this: be fit.

That is all.

 

[SeanNewman]

I don't get it cause at the start of this article it says that those candidates who failed the test were released but...

And there is a difference between a person who didn't prepare cause they were lazy and someone who maybe was off pt for a while because they had a injury and coundn't do pt but wanted to.

1.  The Commandant of the Inf Sch is not the Commanding Officer for anyone except the Infantry candidates.  For all other trades the candidates are only on loan (for explanation's sake) to the Inf Sch.  So what happens if a candidate is junk is that the Inf Sch Cmdt can stop the candidate from training and then make a recommendation to the soldier's actual CO for what to do with him.

2.  No.  If you are unable to pass the test you fail.  If you are injured and unfit you should not be loaded on to the course until you are fit enough to train and pass the test.

 

[davidsonr_91]

Thanks for the answers.  I know this isn't the right place but how do you find the course schedule for the different schools?  How do you know if the schedules are accurate?  Sorry to change the subject.

 

[ballz]

Having said that, of course everyone has to pass the EXPRES test, as well as their yearly aircrew medical.  BMI, waist circumference and the like are still used on us. 

Holy $#!+

BMI? Are you serious? If you don't mind me asking, is it #1 a "no higher than X or you fail" type thing or is it #2 in combination with other things to get a total score? If it is #1, what is the limit if you don't mind me asking?

BMI on it's own is a pretty archaic and inaccurate way of passing/failing, as has been discussed in many other fitness threads.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Holy $#!+

BMI? Are you serious? If you don't mind me asking, is it #1 a "no higher than X or you fail" type thing or is it #2 in combination with other things to get a total score? If it is #1, what is the limit if you don't mind me asking?

BMI on it's own is a pretty archaic and inaccurate way of passing/failing, as has been discussed in many other fitness threads.

Ok keep in mind I am not a Flight Surgeon, MO, PA, or Med Tech.  >

It is part of the aircrew medical.  From my limited understanding, it is used in combination with blood work results (cholesterol levels appeared very important), waist circumference, and 'overall fitness' as tools for the Flight Surgeon to do his/her thing. 

So I'd say its one possible indicator/tool for them to use to assess your medical/health state.

 

[ballz]

Ok keep in mind I am not a Flight Surgeon, MO, PA, or Med Tech.  >

It is part of the aircrew medical.  From my limited understanding, it is used in combination with blood work results (cholesterol levels appeared very important), waist circumference, and 'overall fitness' as tools for the Flight Surgeon to do his/her thing. 

So I'd say its one possible indicator/tool for them to use to assess your medical/health state.

Roger... I was terrified for a minute that it was going to be as simple as  PASS < 26 =< FAIL

I would have lost a lot of all faith...

 

[DexOlesa]

Having recently completed (and passed) my A1 Aircrew medical. I did Blood work, blood pressure, hearing, eyes, put me in a machine to measure my body to see if I'd fit in a plane. Lung tests, weight, height, etc. I don't recall them mentioning my BMI but obviously with all those tests they could have just written down my BMI. Now my BMI is High, and I still passed so its obviously not end all be all if its even used.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

weight, height

I am sure you know this but all BMI uses is height and weight, which is its fault.

 

[DexOlesa]

Yes like I said they took my weight and height as well as measured me for cockpits. They never stated "Your BMI is x" this however does not mean they didn't write it down. My main point is my BMI is like 34. Where as my body fat percentage is roughly 21. I am overweight, I am not morbidly obese or anything like the BMI would have you think. I still got my medical so thats obviously not THE deciding factor.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I don't think anyone suggested it was.  I merely pointed out it is used, and is 1 of the many factors. 

Cheers!

 

[Griffon]

I talked to the MO at DRDC when I did my aircrew medical and she said that BMI is used as part of determining "Metabolic Syndrome" (Yup, that's what it's called now).  It goes in the mix with HDL, LDL and triglyceride levels and waist circumference.  So they're not using BMI on it's own, just using it as the tool it was intended to be to indicate the possibility that there may be a problem.

 

[Infanteer]

The guy who mentioned fitness culture has the right of it.  We have no fitness culture in the CF, it is all dependant on who your CO is.  I spent some time with the USMC and there is a culture of fitness.  Three simple ways to start are:

1.  Do away with the Battle Fitness Test, which has little to do with battle or fitness, and revamp the Express Test to be a good measure of functional fitness.

2.  Make a CF PT Test scored out of 100 (or 300, or whatever) and put that score on PERs.  Give weight to higher numbers and max scores.

3.  Physical Training Instuctor should be brought back as a course; units can send soldiers, sailors and airmen to become PTIs to lead PT at units (this is a course, like Small Arms Instructor, not a trade).  Of course, in the Combat Arms, PTI is a requirement for all leaders....

One of the biggest problems is training leaders to lead fitness - it's basically a self-taught game in the forces.  PT is more then go out for a ruck or a run.  The two fitness PAMs have good PT programs that, when followed, would likely raise the overall level of fitness.

 

[PanaEng]

I think part of the CAP and PLQ courses include a Unit PT component. This is a step in the right direction but I also like your suggestions 1 and 2.

Having the BFT as a PASS/FAIL only does not give an incentive for people to exceed the minimum time. People show up for them totally unprepared knowing that anyone should be able to walk the distance at a leisurely pace and still finish in time - then spend the next week recovering from sore muscles, joints and blisters.

cheers,
Frank