Benefits Cut...

[natharr]

Does this apply to new recruits that are going to CFLRS? According to their website, no indication about any changes yet. I will be attending of BMQ within next few weeks and i am married. Before i was told i don't have to pay for rations because i have a family and a house to maintain. I am trying to clarify this but the person i called at my local RC yesterday did not have any idea about it.
It seems tough to pay for two places with a recruit's pay.

My husband started BMOQ last week. They have told all the recruits that as of Sept 1 they will have to pay $540/month for food. So yes, it does apply to new recruits at CFLRS.

I know it's all been said, but this is really upsetting for a couple reasons:

1. No notice. All during the recruiting process they said that food would be covered during training. Not ONCE did someone say, "And you should budget $540/month so that you can eat."

2. No choice. You have to live there and you have to eat there and you can't buy and make your own food. It's essentially a $540/month pay cut.

3. The amount. $540 is more than what it costs to feed both of us for a month. So if we don't want our food costs to skyrocket, I will have to live on ramen.

This is all new to me. This is the first week of the next six (or more) years. Is this what it's like? Where they promise something and then take it away? It's a really crappy way to welcome people into the Canadian Forces.

(I hate being so negative. I hope the rumours of someone, somewhere, doing something are true.)

 

[Grunt_031]

This is all new to me. This is the first week of the next six (or more) years. Is this what it's like? Where they promise something and then take it away? It's a really crappy way to welcome people into the Canadian Forces.

This is way the CF and government operate. We are our own worst enemies. I feel your pain but in the end it will be a small bump in history. There will always be something along the way. There were many an event like this through my 23 yr career.

i.e In 1990, as a young private with a family, I was to set on my first tour and the LdSH Battlegroup arranged for prepayment of our HLTA with the travel agent. My wife and I used this opportunity to take that dream honeymoon in Europe. The cost was $5000 and it was to be spread over the length of the tour in installments. One month into the tour it came down that the CO did not have the authorization and that all accounts with the travel agent had to be paid in full or a immediate cost recovery would happen (My pay would be zero until it was recovered).  It was alot of stress but in the end a better (not much better) solution was adopted.

Hopefully the CofC will allow the current affected to be cushioned but in the end the marching orders for money are given by Treasury and in the next couple years this will be a semi event forgotten by the majority.

 

[MedCorps]

3. The amount. $540 is more than what it costs to feed both of us for a month. So if we don't want our food costs to skyrocket, I will have to live on ramen.

This will make the first of many sacrifices that you will have to make as the wife of an officer. Be also prepared for him being away for most anniversaries, missing the birth of your child, working late as to not help with child rearing to the full extent you (and he) would like, lots of mixed dinning ins where you have to buy something nice to wear only to listen to boring speeches all night, and functions / parties with the OC / COs wife - someone which you may not even like or a function that want to go, but that will have impact on your husbands career / posting survival. Also be prepared to move every 3-5 years when you are looking to establish your career.

I know ramen sucks, but this whole military experience is indeed a family team sport.  If you are not up to it, let him know now before he has committed blood and tears into his new calling, complete BMOQ and things get ugly.

This is all new to me. This is the first week of the next six (or more) years. Is this what it's like? Where they promise something and then take it away?

Yep.  Welcome to the suck my friend. Wait until you meet the variation on this situation called, "on the bus, off the bus".  You will like that one also.

MC

 

[SupersonicMax]

This will make the first of many sacrifices that you will have to make as the wife of an officer.

Wow, again, really?  So, because she is the wife of oh, an officer, she would have to eat ramen in order for their budget to balance, because rules changes with no notice and no way to avoid?  Give your cranium a good shake..... 

Families should not suffer because of atrocious policies.  It seems that some people wouldn't be able to tell bad policies if it raped them... Keep drinking the cool aid...

Hopefully something gets done, quickly, or the CF will lose some of their most valuable resource: people.

 

[Good2Golf]

Wow, again, really?  So, because she is the wife of oh, an officer, she would have to eat ramen in order for their budget to balance, because rules changes with no notice and no way to avoid?  Give your cranium a good shake..... 

Families should not suffer because of atrocious policies.  It seems that some people wouldn't be able to tell bad policies if it raped them... Keep drinking the cool aid...

Hopefully something gets done, quickly, or the CF will lose some of their most valuable resource: people.

While MedCorps is giving his head a shake on your orders, why don't you give your head a shake too?  With 28 years in the CF and 22 of that married to a wife who made countless concessions in support of my career, I can tell you that both I and my wife agree with 100% of what he said.  Not saying we like(d) it, but it is what it is.

At no time did MedCorps say he agreed with the new policy, but he was advising poster Harriet that if things don't get sorted out on the SE benefit reduction, that eating ramen noodles may very well be but one of the number of significant concessions she will have to make in the future; not because she is a woman or a wife per se, but as the spouse of an officer who, we'll assume has a reasonable career growth path ahead of him, will have to live with shorter posting cycles than NCMs (peak for my wife and me was five postings in as many years to four different cities) and "non-mandatory" costs (material and time) related to social and official functions, etc... that are part of the "support your spouse, even if you aren't a big fan of their bosses, system, organization, etc..." program.

MedCorps' comment about life in the CF being a "family sport" is about as close to the truth as anyone could get.  Unless I am completely missing his intent though, his comments were all meant to inform Harriet of the potential (likely) impact of how family life in the CF will unfold - forewarned is forearmed.  Frankly, I wish that both I and my wife had had someone tell us this much earlier in our careers such that when the posting message arrived, often without warning (especially that 5-in-a-row period) it would have made my wife putting yet again another job/career on hold or stopping yet again another degree in mid-course a bit more palatable...or at least understandable.

Over time (22 years to be exact) my wife is less surprised by things that happen in the CF that seem to either make no sense at all or, worse yet, bring hardships to bear on families.  That doesn't make those things any more palatable, but it has made both of us much more attuned to the plight of everyone affected by such policy changes and to help, as much as we can as a less formal "command team", CF members and their families understand and try to deal with their respective situations, including making social events with chain of command far less uncaring and unrespectful than when my wife and I were starting out our "marriage in/with the CF."

Deride MedCorps and others all you want with you "Kool-aid" comments and the like, Max, but don't lose sight of the fact that MedCorps' words were given with an aim of helping Harriet and other spouses to understand and prepare for what may (likely) come in the future, not to try to convince them to like what happened recently with cuts to SE benefits.


Regards
G2G

 

[Grunt_031]

Hopefully something gets done, quickly, or the CF will lose some of their most valuable resource: people.

We lose good people very day. As they fall to the side other people step up and new people join. You make contributions and sacrifice to the CF but once you leave they are a distant memory brought up at reunions. Your Creations, SOP's, Policies are changed or modified with the new people wanting to make their mark.  Remember it is always to the the benefit of the CF and the Crown not the other way round. The Army (CF) marchs on.  The camp followers are the ones that have to pick up the pieces after the battle.

 

[SupersonicMax]

While MedCorps is giving his head a shake on your orders, why don't you give your head a shake too?  With 28 years in the CF and 22 of that married to a wife who made countless concessions in support of my career, I can tell you that both I and my wife agree with 100% of what he said.  Not saying we like(d) it, but it is what it is.

I did not say that as a military spouse, you shouldn't make concessions and sacrifices... Quite to the contrary and I hope anyone joining the CF understands that.  I also think most people understand that policy changes will happen over time.  However, the latest round of policy change is simply unacceptable and saying that "This will make the first of many sacrifices that you will have to make as the wife of an officer" simply doesn't cut it, especially by a "Senior Officer". 

If any company tried that on a new hire, I can tell you lawsuits would follow...

At no time did MedCorps say he agreed with the new policy, but he was advising poster Harriet that if things don't get sorted out on the SE benefit reduction, that eating ramen noodles may very well be but one of the number of significant concessions she will have to make in the future.

The way I read it was along the lines of "suck it up, buttercup, hubby joined the military now your life is second to his".  In fact, I believe that military families are the backbone of our organization.  Keep them happy and they will go the extra mile without saying a word.  As soon as you cut into their basic needs, this is when it starts going sideways.  A soldier/airman/sailor cannot perform at work, especially not if deployed, then the family behind is not supportive at 100%.  The old days of "if they army wanted you to have a wife, it would issue you one" are, thankfully, gone.

MedCorps' comment about life in the CF being a "family sport" is about as close to the truth as anyone could get.  Unless I am completely missing his intent though, his comments were all meant to inform Harriet of the potential (likely) impact of how family life in the CF will unfold - forewarned is forearmed.  Frankly, I wish that both I and my wife had had someone tell us this much earlier in our careers such that when the posting message arrived, often without warning (especially that 5-in-a-row period) it would have made my wife putting yet again another job/career on hold or stopping yet again another degree in mid-course a bit more palatable...or at least understandable.

They way I interpreted his comments is "If you think eating ramen because you have no money to buy anything else is bad, let you hubby know now, so he can release."  Again, basic needs.  She can't be supportive of an organization that has little considerations for the consequences of policy change (I know the CF had its hand tied, however from a recruit's perspective, I think, it was for me back when I joined 12 years ago, it's all the same...)  And it's a very bad first impression of an organization that is supposedly an "employer of choice".

Deride MedCorps and others all you want with you "Kool-aid" comments and the like, Max, but don't lose sight of the fact that MedCorps' words were given with an aim of helping Harriet and other spouses to understand and prepare for what may (likely) come in the future, not to try to convince them to like what happened recently with cuts to SE benefits.

By not being sympathetic to the cause, he comes across, to me anyways, as not caring for the welfare of those involved.  I am in no way affected a bit by this, however I can sympathize with those that are and I certainly do not defend the system that is screwing its own people right now.

We lose good people very day. As they fall to the side other people step up and new people join. You make contributions and sacrifice to the CF but once you leave they are a distant memory brought up at reunions. Your Creations, SOP's, Policies are changed or modified with the new people wanting to make their mark.  Remember it is always to the the benefit of the CF and the Crown not the other way round. The Army (CF) marchs on.  The camp followers are the ones that have to pick up the pieces after the battle.

Attracting people is easy enough... Attracting quality people is a different matter...  Belive it or not, money talks, even in the CF.  If the CF and the Crown wants to benefit something, the CF and the Crown will have to give a little.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Max,

Reference your "lawsuit" comment-

The fact of the matter is that, you, we, us  Do Not work for a corporation.

We all serve at the pleasure of the Crown.

Think about that line for a second.

The Crown is free to adjust the terms and conditions of our service, at will.

This is not an endorsement of the mess that has become of SE and meal plans, particularly for junior folks under training.  It is instead, a reminder to that we work for a rather unique employer- an employer who quite literally holds all the cards.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Max,

Reference your "lawsuit" comment-

The fact of the matter is that, you, we, us  Do Not work for a corporation.

We all serve at the pleasure of the Crown.

Think about that line for a second.

The Crown is free to adjust the terms and conditions of our service, at will.

This is not an endorsement of the mess that has become of SE and meal plans, particularly for junior folks under training.  It is instead, a reminder to that we work for a rather unique employer- an employer who quite literally holds all the cards.

My comment was meant to be a contrast to the "Employer of choice" slogan widely used by the CF...  Having said that, I do not believe that the government has every and any right to do whatever it wants with its personnel and their benefit.  It still needs to stand in court if challenge (and there are avenues to challenge the policies).

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Really, Max?

Really?

You do understand the term "unlimited liability", right?

I am losing patience for your self entitled BS.

You do not have to like this latest benefits fiasco (and it is a fiasco), but you need to keep some perspective.

Do you think that you would realistically be making the equivalent of your entire compensation package (which amounts to more than 100k/annum) flying anywhere else in North America, with (I'm guessing here), less than 1000hrs of total flying time?

I've been doing this for more than 27 years.  95% of the time, we are vastly over compensated for what we do.

The other 5% of the time, there is not enough money in the world.

In other words, you had better be in this gig for reasons other than money.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Max,

You have repeatedly stated that you have no skin in this game, and yet weigh in with proscriptive if not apocalyptic pronouncements.  Easy to do without any skin - and I am assuming that you statements means that none of your subordinates (if you indeed have any) are in anyway impacted by this policy change.

Consider this.  Many of the poster on this thread, including the "Senior Officers" that you dimissively referred to have a lot of skin in this game.  They have subordinates that are severely affected by this policy change. And yet they have made the effort to truly understand the nature of the organisation in which they serve, and are now working diligently to not only mitigate the impact of the changes where possible, but also to be the public face of the policy change.

If you are not prepared to do so yourself, now or in the future, you should give West Jet a call.  I hear they are an "employer of choice", and you will get to belong to a union as well, protecting you from ever having to think hard about issues lkike unlimited liability, service to the country, or definitions of fair compensation.

 

[aesop081]

  It still needs to stand in court if challenge (and there are avenues to challenge the policies).

When can we expect you to do so ?

 

[George Wallace]

...........  Having said that, I do not believe that the government has every and any right to do whatever it wants with its personnel and their benefit.  It still needs to stand in court if challenge (and there are avenues to challenge the policies).

Tell that to the Public Civil Service unions.  I am sure they will all rally around you.  They just gave up Severence Pay, and other benefits due to 'discussions' with Treasury Board/our Government. 

 

[armyvern]

We lose good people very day. As they fall to the side other people step up and new people join. You make contributions and sacrifice to the CF but once you leave they are a distant memory brought up at reunions. Your Creations, SOP's, Policies are changed or modified with the new people wanting to make their mark.  Remember it is always to the the benefit of the CF and the Crown not the other way round. The Army (CF) marchs on.  The camp followers are the ones that have to pick up the pieces after the battle.

Careful with that statement. I am one who has picked up the pieces. 4 Prohibited Postings so far in my career, and at least 1 "middle of February" P.P. move for both myself and my Svc Spouse ... we are the ones who go "wherever, whenever, for whatever" and do our jobs.

Careers seriously can't find a spot for a Sup Tech in Petawawa with her Svc Spouse (at a time when at least two other sup techs of same rank had +12 years there)? In Petawawa!!?? My gawd. At a time when I was PP in Borden with a gentlemen of same rank/trade as my husband who was also PP - while both our spouses were in Pet (and she same trade/rank as I)? When I am P.P. here and he was posted to Quebec in last January while I was deployed ... and yet his career shop has since posted 2 members same rank/trade as him here to my location (1 of them IR!!)?? Yet we are still separated!?

And now, they want me to pay for those costs? How fun. Makes one think. You are right of course, I am replaceable; so is my service spouse. We who both do our jobs whenever and wherever are absolutely replaceable; we understand that careers will colocate us "when they can, but that exigencies of the service come first". Do exigencies of the service count when others rot in locations? When others of same rank/trade have never had to suffer through even ONE posting away from their family? Usually of the two latter groups precisely because they will not do the "whenever, wherever" thing as we who are now financially impacted have more than proven we are willing to do? Yes, we are a MSC, but the CF certainly benefits from the employment of us both.

To me, that means next time they want to post either one of us in February, the possibility exists that they can go ahead and replace us two replaceable people. That means they'd have to fill whatever job it was they were posting me to, fill the job I would currently be sitting in, and fill his job he'd be sitting in. In February. I wish them well with that should that be what it comes down to. Replace 3 for failing to look after the 1 who has no choice.

I'll give careers credit: on the last posting (his to Quebec), he was supposed to be posted in December. As the DF&E moves with him and I am the prohibited posted party, our taxes would have then been payable in Quebec tax rate for the year. Nice. When he talked to his career shop and pointed out they'd be screwing our family for an extra 10K in taxes from the two of us by posting him prior to 31 December, they relented and COSd him in on 5 Jan. Of course, that meant we were in a hotel over Christmas with my meals not covered under "his" move of course because I was attached posted to Edmonton for WU Trg (and posted PP somewhere else). But, best thing to happen to us from our respective career shops in many a years now.



+++ And, I've yet to hear whether or not it was the CF itself who offered up these areas for cuts or whether they were TB directed. So far, the benefits have not changed in the NJC for other government departments ...

 

[Wookilar]

Ok so Monday is not done just quite yet, but nothing new that I have seen. I've been out in the woods sans 3G for the last 2 weeks plus so I had a bit of reading to do 

I see that CANFORGEN 083/11 Clarification of Restricted Move was cancelled last week.

I haven't seen any new info that would replace said CANFORGEN. Part of a larger consolidation of Restricted/Prohibited et al perhaps?

 

[DAA]

Email came out today regarding the subject as a result of discussions at AFC.  The policy with respect to IR and its' benefits is being reviewed and an amendment on the CANFORGEN is forthcoming, hppefully by the end of this week.  There was no mention of just what is going to change, other than the comment of a "soft landing".....

 

[SupersonicMax]

You do understand the term "unlimited liability", right?

I am pretty sure it doesn't mean the government can frig you over all it wants.  Yes, it can send you to war, ask you to kill people and lay down your live.  That is in the law and we, as soldiers/airmen/sailors, understand and accept it. 

Do you think that you would realistically be making the equivalent of your entire compensation package (which amounts to more than 100k/annum) flying anywhere else in North America, with (I'm guessing here), less than 1000hrs of total flying time?

I am pretty sure I could make close to 100K a year flying right now on the civy streets/other militaries, or more if not flying, however that is not the point. I would not be expected to fly over bad guy land, being shot at and kill people with Air Canada.  Oh, and I am pretty sure I wouldn't work 60hrs a week on average working for Air Canada. Remember that "umlimited liability" thing?  It does have a price tag in the end.

I've been doing this for more than 27 years.  95% of the time, we are vastly over compensated for what we do.

Putting things into perspective, and taking into consideration what we could and are asked to do(kill or be killed), the sacrifices we need to make (I am gone 4-5 months out of every year for work, work countless week ends in the QRA, etc, etc) I don't think we are over compensated for what we do.

In other words, you had better be in this gig for reasons other than money.

Yup, I don't do it for the money.  I'm pretty sure I could have made a whole lot more money somewhere else.  But I wouldn't be doing what I love the most. However, you cannot expect your personnel to be happy when they can't meet the basic needs or their family because of horrible policies.  Money may not be the sole motivation for most people, however it is a very good enabler.  Think of people that went on tours because they netted a whole lot more money?

I am not arguing about IR.  I agree, IR was the sacred cow that people abused over the years.  It has a place and a use, but sadly, a few abused the system (and even with the latest changes, it looks like some will still be able to milk that cow).  I am mostly upset about the impact it has on personnel on prohibited posting, where the CF orders someone, somewhere and doesn't allow the families to come with, but puts the families (especially young privates/2Lts undergoing training) under a significant financial stress.  I am happy to see, with the latest post, that the upper echelon of the CF are trying to do something, but I am disappointed that nothing was done before the policy was unveiled.

CDN Aviator:  I would most definitely challenge the policy if it implicated me by all means possible, up to and including court.  I am very much a "It's not that bad, we'll live through it" kind of guy, but this is simply outrageous. 

GW: We also lost severange pay.  I am not bitching about that.

Consider this.  Many of the poster on this thread, including the "Senior Officers" that you dimissively referred to have a lot of skin in this game.  They have subordinates that are severely affected by this policy change. And yet they have made the effort to truly understand the nature of the organisation in which they serve, and are now working diligently to not only mitigate the impact of the changes where possible, but also to be the public face of the policy change.

There is always a way to deal with a bad policy internally.  Saving face at the expense of your people is not an option imo.  A spade needs to be called a spade. 

If you are not prepared to do so yourself, now or in the future, you should give West Jet a call.  I hear they are an "employer of choice", and you will get to belong to a union as well, protecting you from ever having to think hard about issues lkike unlimited liability, service to the country, or definitions of fair compensation.

Just to be clear, Westjet pilots do not have a union.  And I am not very pro-union.  But flying airlines is not in my future plans...  Thanks for the advice though..

 

[George Wallace]

GW: We also lost severange pay.  I am not bitching about that.

We all know that......It seems the point I was trying to make went right over your head.

...........  Having said that, I do not believe that the government has every and any right to do whatever it wants with its personnel and their benefit.  It still needs to stand in court if challenge (and there are avenues to challenge the policies).

It appears that the government does do what it wants with its personnel and their benefits. 

 

[4Feathers]

Ok so Monday is not done just quite yet, but nothing new that I have seen. I've been out in the woods sans 3G for the last 2 weeks plus so I had a bit of reading to do 

I see that CANFORGEN 083/11 Clarification of Restricted Move was cancelled last week.

I haven't seen any new info that would replace said CANFORGEN. Part of a larger consolidation of Restricted/Prohibited et al perhaps?

Hurry up and wait, it is coming as I said last Friday. Likely pertains to the timing of the benefit changes.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Max,

To avoid a total thread derail, I will just say that I disagree with just about everything you have just posted.

Good day.