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NavyGrunt
Guest
Has PM Martin come out and condemed this act yet? I heard Bush's.......
Bloody end to Russia school siege
- Thread starter Pikache
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NavyGrunt
Guest
Excellent. I was reading some articles my Aunt from texas sent me demanding to know where "Canada's" was. They dont mention it in the American news stories I've read.
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Can you post the links to those articles from your Aunt in Texas?
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NavyGrunt
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http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/03/school.world.reax.ap/index.html
Heres one from CNN that doesnt mention us....
Heres one from CNN that doesnt mention us....
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Ah ok I was under the impression that the articles were complaining that Canada wasn't condeming the actions of these Chechen terrorists.
Jarnhamar
Army.ca Myth
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Sorry guys i'm confused.
People are pissed that Canada ddin't make a huge announcement that we don't agree with what the terrorists did?
Do we have to make a public announcement anytime something like this happens? is there a time limit?
"Hell the Canadians haven't condemed the actions of those terrorists, they must be in league with them!"
Maybe I'm just not getting this..
I'm glad texans are so worried about us appologizing for everything bad happening in the world.
People are pissed that Canada ddin't make a huge announcement that we don't agree with what the terrorists did?
Do we have to make a public announcement anytime something like this happens? is there a time limit?
"Hell the Canadians haven't condemed the actions of those terrorists, they must be in league with them!"
Maybe I'm just not getting this..
I'm glad texans are so worried about us appologizing for everything bad happening in the world.
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NavyGrunt
Guest
HA Ill pass that along Scooby-doo. You obviously havent spent much time in texas ;D Everything is everyone elses fault and if your not with them you are a against them. As for "annoucing" it I know what you mean and I agree but look at like this- your buddies kid dies do you not pass along condolences? Or do you keep quiet and assume he knows? A little different I know.....
Jarnhamar
Army.ca Myth
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If it happens to my buddies kid's I'd give him my condolences naturally. If it happened to a complete stranger I wouldnt say anything because the last thing i think a stranger wants is someone feeling sorry for them. I do see your point to an extent an d i agree it's a little different.
I just think its BS that someone would take the time to get pissed off over something like that, to me THATS the real insult.
I just think its BS that someone would take the time to get pissed off over something like that, to me THATS the real insult.
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NavyGrunt
Guest
Its Texas. Everything is bigger in Texas and that includes tempers and accusations. In other Texas news they call a touque a "Toboggan".
"Jason its cold outside- put your toboggan on"
Oh man. I love that.
Anyways Ive hijacked a very serious thread. Sorry.
In the end besides terrorizing children and parents what did the rebels get? Certianly not sympathy for their cause. This was probably the worst attack I can recall as it was directed at children. As if they have some sway over international policy. Its sick.
"Jason its cold outside- put your toboggan on"
Oh man. I love that.
Anyways Ive hijacked a very serious thread. Sorry.
In the end besides terrorizing children and parents what did the rebels get? Certianly not sympathy for their cause. This was probably the worst attack I can recall as it was directed at children. As if they have some sway over international policy. Its sick.
Well, if the whole point was to draw attention to whatever their "cause" is, it worked. The thing I don't get is what they hoped to accomplish by negotiation; if a group of terrorists take over a school for shock value, then wouldn't murdering everyone inside be "even better"? Or was the whole idea of taking over a school a means to ensure that the Russian Special Forces wouldn't try to use a morphine based gas again?
This is going to sound stupid, but couldn't a "viable" solution be threatening to do something even worse to the Chechen population, as was done in Lebanon? "Stooping to their level" doesn't really sound bad, not after this.
The fight against people who would do something like this - it would be nice to see Canada doing something - or anything - of real importance to combat this problem, instead of merely echoing the condolences of other countries.
This is going to sound stupid, but couldn't a "viable" solution be threatening to do something even worse to the Chechen population, as was done in Lebanon? "Stooping to their level" doesn't really sound bad, not after this.
The fight against people who would do something like this - it would be nice to see Canada doing something - or anything - of real importance to combat this problem, instead of merely echoing the condolences of other countries.
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The terrorists didn't get the reponse they wanted (sympathy) according to what I've read and heard on the news and most people will support Putin even more strongly. I also saw on the news that Canada did issue a public comendation on the incident. nULL what would you have Canada do?
Well, for starters, what good did Canada do last year? I'm not bashing the troops, far from it; but Afghanistan still sounds like it is a pretty dangerous, lawless country. What were troops doing patrolling Kabul, maintaining law and order? Wouldn't that be a job for an international constabulatory force? Shouldn't our troops have been off in the countryside hunting down and killing the remnants of the Taliban, the ones still attacking both foreign and local aid groups and forcing them out of the country?
For instance...
http://www.dailytexanonline.com/news/2004/07/29/WorldNation/Doctors.Group.Leaves.Afghanistan.After.Staff.Murders-696457.shtml
I know it's my lack of experience talking, but I still think that Canada provided merely a token force, and that we can and should be doing more there.
For instance...
http://www.dailytexanonline.com/news/2004/07/29/WorldNation/Doctors.Group.Leaves.Afghanistan.After.Staff.Murders-696457.shtml
I know it's my lack of experience talking, but I still think that Canada provided merely a token force, and that we can and should be doing more there.
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Pugnacious
Guest
Somehow I think the Russian troops are more capable in dealing with this then Canada troops on many levels.
But I have to say if I was asked to go over and help somehow... I would.
Those poor kids... RIP
P. :-[
But I have to say if I was asked to go over and help somehow... I would.
Those poor kids... RIP
P. :-[
Pieman
Army.ca Veteran
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Wonder if there is a way that Canada could extend a hand over there that would be effective?
I was looking at some of the pictures you provided to the Russian webpage on the other thread, and some of them were pretty awful. I have to say that I used to side with the Chechnian rebels when they were fighting for Independence with Russia. At the start of this conflict, they were trying to push out the Russian Army and government. (When did this conflict start? about 6 years ago?) At first they gave the appearance, in my book, of legit rebels in a legit fight for freedom. (Or maybe that was because of my lack of knowledge back then via CNN on the subject)
Now, they have turned to these kind of tactics of killing children, suicide bombings etc. I wish the rebels would have accepted the fact that they lost the battle, instead of turning into bloody terrorists. I have no sympathy for them and I hope Putin hunts them down like dogs.
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Null: You are being a bit hard on Canada:
Well, for starters, what good did Canada do last year?
How about running ISAF, and the Kabul Multi-National Brigade(KMNB), and providing the most capable battle group in ISAF? We had to give all of that up because our Army just cannot sustain a bill of that size. The US commander here very much wanted Canada to stay at full strength (we are pretty well respected by the US, despite our small size) but we just couldn't. We have now drawn down to about a third of where we were, and are no longer running our own Area of Operations (AOO)
I'm not bashing the troops, far from it; but Afghanistan still sounds like it is a pretty dangerous, lawless country.
Outside Kabul it still is. Kabul is not perfect (see the bombing of the DYNCORPS building recently) but the degree of security, stability and economic recovery that it has now is largely due to ISAF's presence. A secure and stable Kabul is vital to the future of this country.
What were troops doing patrolling Kabul, maintaining law and order? Wouldn't that be a job for an international constabulatory force?
Not right now. The potential for the return of violence is still very high and will remain so at least until the Presidential elections are successfully completed in October, and perhaps even beyond that into next year depending on how the Provincial elections go. It is worth remembering that ISAF have suffered more losses from suicide bombers and carbombs than the US forces have.(Germans, UK, Cdns) Right now it is too much of a job for a constabulary force, although the Afghan National Police are playing an increasingly important role.
Shouldn't our troops have been off in the countryside hunting down and killing the remnants of the Taliban, the ones still attacking both foreign and local aid groups and forcing them out of the country
It depends on how you look at it. CJTF76, where I am working, is doing a very fine job of whacking and smacking the baddies under Operation Enduring Freedom. In fact, the last few days the ops briefings have been pretty tame-the sh*tbirds haven't been doing much. OEF has the hunting and killing part well in hand. And, not all the NGOs are leaving, by any means. There certainly is danger here, especially in the South and East, but it may not be quite the disaster the media depiicts.
What ISAF, especially KMNB is doing is working to ensure that Kabul, which is the economic and political heart of Afghanistan, is a secure environment from which the new government can gradually extend its rule across the country. The long term plan is for OEF to gradually wind down and hand much of Afghanistan to ISAF. You will most likely see Canada move out of Kabul to take on operating a Provincial Reconstruction Team (PRT).PRTs are the combined military-civil organizations that both OEF and ISF are using to start rebuilding the country outside Kabul.
Cheers.
Well, for starters, what good did Canada do last year?
How about running ISAF, and the Kabul Multi-National Brigade(KMNB), and providing the most capable battle group in ISAF? We had to give all of that up because our Army just cannot sustain a bill of that size. The US commander here very much wanted Canada to stay at full strength (we are pretty well respected by the US, despite our small size) but we just couldn't. We have now drawn down to about a third of where we were, and are no longer running our own Area of Operations (AOO)
I'm not bashing the troops, far from it; but Afghanistan still sounds like it is a pretty dangerous, lawless country.
Outside Kabul it still is. Kabul is not perfect (see the bombing of the DYNCORPS building recently) but the degree of security, stability and economic recovery that it has now is largely due to ISAF's presence. A secure and stable Kabul is vital to the future of this country.
What were troops doing patrolling Kabul, maintaining law and order? Wouldn't that be a job for an international constabulatory force?
Not right now. The potential for the return of violence is still very high and will remain so at least until the Presidential elections are successfully completed in October, and perhaps even beyond that into next year depending on how the Provincial elections go. It is worth remembering that ISAF have suffered more losses from suicide bombers and carbombs than the US forces have.(Germans, UK, Cdns) Right now it is too much of a job for a constabulary force, although the Afghan National Police are playing an increasingly important role.
Shouldn't our troops have been off in the countryside hunting down and killing the remnants of the Taliban, the ones still attacking both foreign and local aid groups and forcing them out of the country
It depends on how you look at it. CJTF76, where I am working, is doing a very fine job of whacking and smacking the baddies under Operation Enduring Freedom. In fact, the last few days the ops briefings have been pretty tame-the sh*tbirds haven't been doing much. OEF has the hunting and killing part well in hand. And, not all the NGOs are leaving, by any means. There certainly is danger here, especially in the South and East, but it may not be quite the disaster the media depiicts.
What ISAF, especially KMNB is doing is working to ensure that Kabul, which is the economic and political heart of Afghanistan, is a secure environment from which the new government can gradually extend its rule across the country. The long term plan is for OEF to gradually wind down and hand much of Afghanistan to ISAF. You will most likely see Canada move out of Kabul to take on operating a Provincial Reconstruction Team (PRT).PRTs are the combined military-civil organizations that both OEF and ISF are using to start rebuilding the country outside Kabul.
Cheers.
- Reaction score
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Correction note: my figures on ISAF vs US casualties could give the wrong impression. The US military across Afhanistan has suffered more deaths, total, than ISAF. A portion of these deaths have been by IEDs and VBIEDs but a number are combat deaths as well. (and there have been several deaths from negligent discharges). However, this does not lessen the point I was trying to make: Kabul is not Canada's Wonderland. Cheers.
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Pugnacious
Guest
I'm with you on this Pieman.
What I have learned over the years is the roots of this conflict goes way back, back to Tsarist days in fact if not even before, with about as many twists and turns as what we have seen in Balkan politics.
Still in the back of my mind I cannot help think that this situation as not created in part by the Soviets/Russians themselves.
This doesn't condone the acts we have seen, but explains abit of the build up to this point.
How would Canada respond if lets say it was invaded by the US not willing to let up on their loss in 1812, and our cities where turned to moonscapes? How far would we go? How would the world view us fighting back?
Desperate people do desperate things, and then out come the wing nuts, survivalists, Anarchists, mercenaries, and sociopath, to fill the gaps and ranks of the dead idealists...left behind are the ordinary people trying to survive in the rubble, and as the younger generation replaces the older one things become more bleak having grown up in a hell hole with no idea what it was like before the conflict.
So at times like this I have to remind myself, and others that these scumbags are the minority, and one cannot judge all of Chechnya for the actions of these scumbags, in fact they where mercenaries. Out of the 10 scumbags of the killed, 9 were Arabs , and one African.
IMHO I think how Canada can help would be to tighten its boarders and make sure we are not being a safe haven for terror groups to work in. Because if we don't I'm sure someone else will take over the security of our country for us, and we won't like this.
Cheers!
P.
What I have learned over the years is the roots of this conflict goes way back, back to Tsarist days in fact if not even before, with about as many twists and turns as what we have seen in Balkan politics.
Still in the back of my mind I cannot help think that this situation as not created in part by the Soviets/Russians themselves.
This doesn't condone the acts we have seen, but explains abit of the build up to this point.
How would Canada respond if lets say it was invaded by the US not willing to let up on their loss in 1812, and our cities where turned to moonscapes? How far would we go? How would the world view us fighting back?
Desperate people do desperate things, and then out come the wing nuts, survivalists, Anarchists, mercenaries, and sociopath, to fill the gaps and ranks of the dead idealists...left behind are the ordinary people trying to survive in the rubble, and as the younger generation replaces the older one things become more bleak having grown up in a hell hole with no idea what it was like before the conflict.
So at times like this I have to remind myself, and others that these scumbags are the minority, and one cannot judge all of Chechnya for the actions of these scumbags, in fact they where mercenaries. Out of the 10 scumbags of the killed, 9 were Arabs , and one African.
IMHO I think how Canada can help would be to tighten its boarders and make sure we are not being a safe haven for terror groups to work in. Because if we don't I'm sure someone else will take over the security of our country for us, and we won't like this.
Cheers!
P.
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You want to help the kids in Russia then send some money. We don't have the means or the will to do much more then we are already.
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Watching the events unfold on CNN I was understandably separated from the reality that was occurring- then I saw my daughter napping and then the horror of what happened sunk in. I quietly realized that it could happen here as well. I think many of us (Canadians) haven't accepted this reality. It can happen to Bali, Spain, UK, and the US. What make us so special- our maple leaf?
Do you think that bastards like this really care that we play hockey and drink Tim Hortons? (I realize that this a a glib statement on Canadian culture, but the reality is we aren't that different in our fundamental views on whats right and wrong-like that matters to these bastards- than those already singled out.
Do you think that bastards like this really care that we play hockey and drink Tim Hortons? (I realize that this a a glib statement on Canadian culture, but the reality is we aren't that different in our fundamental views on whats right and wrong-like that matters to these bastards- than those already singled out.
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