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C3 Howitzer Replacement

Who have significantly better Reserve programs than the CAF. While actual mandate summer training and government support and mandates towards that training time.
That is a fault of the program and no matter what you want the Reserves to do they need an adequate programme. If you want expeditionary reserves then train the buggers - you are going to have to in any event.

It has no GS ability in realistic terms due to the fact the M777 doesn't have the range that is generally needed for GS this day and age.
GS used to come in two forms. One added range. The other added weight in the form of a separate regiment that the Div Commander could swing to the main effort.

With 3 "CMBG" Regular formations, one would expect that there should be the ability to provide 3 Regular Bde's - and the CSSB for an actual Canadian Division
Agreed. So do we have 3 CMBGs? Or do we have 3 hollowed out skeletons? Would we be better amalgamating all the available assets and ensuring that we can stand up one proper, ready to deploy, CMBG?

CMBG's are supposed to be Mechanized - the fact that they really aren't should be telling.
They aren't. That is telling. The label doesn't describe what is in the box. Change the label.

My realistic view is that Canada has 1 Lt Bde, 1 Medium Bde and 1 Medium Bde with Tanks, the 777 is good for the Lt, but not really for the other two.
Sounds right.

I was meaning more wheeled or tracked and just using the names as generic placeholders.

Then why have a PRes?
Why have a National Guard? The Army Reserve is a different creature despite the recent tendency to regularly Federalize the Guard.
The Guard has been Federalized because the US Regular Army is too small for the ambitions of US politicians and the US Army can't retain enough qualified Reservists.
You just basically suggested that there is no value from them.
No. You just suggested that. I suggest that there is no value to the Regular Army or the Expeditionary Force.
No I don't accept Defense of Canada to be a legitimate claim.
And there is our biggest point of disagreement.
I accept the National Guard as a legitimate Defence Agency.
Federalizing the Militia demands a whole of society buy-in as in WW1 and WW2. And come to think of that we in Canada never achieved that buy-in in either war. In both wars we fought as volunteers. And damned near broke the country when we tried the other thing.
 
You have the RCMP and Provincial Police forces, as well as CSIS that would be hopefully interdicting the shipment, and preparation for anything like that.
Even down here we only have a MRAD program for the NCR, not a bunch of other cities, as we belief the Navy, AirForce, and NORAD will deal with any of those external threats (hmm kind of like Canada has) and the FBI and other intelligence and Law Enforcement entities to ensure that it doesn't happen from local launches.
Except for Greeley and the National Guard Avenger Battalions.
Any of those other items a Reserve capacity?
Your tanks are being upgraded/maintained to the point that only ~20 could go out the door
The Frigates are almost rusted out -- so you can't deploy more, but they used to have a much more robust sailing schedule.
The CSC assumably would resume a great deployment schedule - but you still need to rest crews and conduct maintenance.
The Subs, are a prime example of how the rule of 3's work, 1 deployed, 1 standby/workup, 1 in maintenance.
All of them are Reserve Capacity in the sense that we never commit more than 20% of the available capacity to the field. The other 80% is held, as you say, for training and maintenance.

I think the average Canadian would shit if you proposed putting Air Defense Missiles around Canada, and you would be tarred and feathered for such fear mongering...
I don't think the average Canadian was particularly bothered when we had Air Defence Batteries in Quebec, and Lethbridge and whatever other places we had them when they were aligned with 4 ADR which was a total force regiment in any case.

They don't get bent out of shape when we have C3s in town. Most of them haven't a clue they are there or what they are for.
 
You are legitimately killing me today.

The biggest issue is the NGAR is a viable entity. It used to be a joke, but was reformed and made into the combat capable entity that it is today.
The fact that one is required to do drill weekends and multi week tasks is unlike the CA PRes. So entire units train together, and until that occurs in Canada the PRes won’t be viable for anything but augmenting the Reg Force.

You seem to be talking about active batteries in Canada. None of the older AD units was out at airports or ports in search mode.
The only time I know of that occurring was during the G-8 in Kananaskis just after 911.
 
For domestic Defense you could have a shore to ship missile system one for each coast. From what I have seen that gives you a significant area of coverage. Also mobile enough that it could be relocated to provide protection to a forward operating port if the thee is no domestic threat.

For domestic AD, the target are long range ballistic missiles, You could task a CSC on each coast to provide that protection as required. Combinded perhaps with air launched weapons from RCAF aircraft of the future.

For operations we are going to need long, medium, short and very short range AD. For now fill the last three asap. Then plan with our allies on how to accomplish the long range stuff. Depending on you allies to bring adequate AD for themselves and you seems to be a very bad idea.
 
You are legitimately killing me today.

Somebody has to make you miserable....

The biggest issue is the NGAR is a viable entity. It used to be a joke, but was reformed and made into the combat capable entity that it is today.

And there you have it. It was made useful.

The fact that one is required to do drill weekends and multi week tasks is unlike the CA PRes. So entire units train together, and until that occurs in Canada the PRes won’t be viable for anything but augmenting the Reg Force.

The bigger problem as far as I am concerned is that the Canadian Army co-opted the Militia, with the complicit connivance of the Militia, and turned it into the Army Reserve, nothing more than boots on parade for Generals.

You seem to be talking about active batteries in Canada. None of the older AD units was out at airports or ports in search mode.
No. But they practiced at airports. At least the Lethbridge battery did.

And do the field batteries go active locally? Haven't seen many craters locally recently.

The only time I know of that occurring was during the G-8 in Kananaskis just after 911.
 
For domestic Defense you could have a shore to ship missile system one for each coast. From what I have seen that gives you a significant area of coverage. Also mobile enough that it could be relocated to provide protection to a forward operating port if the thee is no domestic threat.

For domestic AD, the target are long range ballistic missiles, You could task a CSC on each coast to provide that protection as required. Combinded perhaps with air launched weapons from RCAF aircraft of the future.

For operations we are going to need long, medium, short and very short range AD. For now fill the last three asap. Then plan with our allies on how to accomplish the long range stuff. Depending on you allies to bring adequate AD for themselves and you seems to be a very bad idea.

And based on what is happening around the Baltic long, medium, short and very short are being integrated with the coastal defence and counter-battery capabilities using common C4I architecture.
 
And based on what is happening around the Baltic long, medium, short and very short are being integrated with the coastal defence and counter-battery capabilities using common C4I architecture.
Again the Baltics have a significantly different threat due to geography.
 
Again the Baltics have a significantly different threat due to geography.
But does that mean a different C4I strategy is necessary?

How is that JADC2 thingy coming along?
 
But does that mean a different C4I strategy is necessary?
I'm not an expert, but I expect that yes our geography necessitates a different strategy.

The best defence of Canada is a robust expeditionary force that keeps the threats on the other side of at least one of our oceans.

We have NORAD monitoring of our air and sea spaces. If we wanted to boost contential security we would focus on more ships and more aircraft defending the approaches, rather than NASAMS half a continent from the threats.
 
I'm not an expert, but I expect that yes our geography necessitates a different strategy.

The best defence of Canada is a robust expeditionary force that keeps the threats on the other side of at least one of our oceans.

We have NORAD monitoring of our air and sea spaces. If we wanted to boost contential security we would focus on more ships and more aircraft defending the approaches, rather than NASAMS half a continent from the threats.

Geography definitely impacts strategy and tactics but C4I or even C4ISR is to a great extent a universal problem that goes to the heart of Battle Management.

That is one of the things about the NASAMs system that I find so attractive - the Fire Distribution Centres and the view they supply of the entire battlespace as well as they ability they seem to give to cue actions. From my perspective, if the operator/commander can cue a SAM missile launch against a drone, or an NSM launch against a ship, or a HIMARs launch against an HQ or ammo dump or artillery battery, then the commander can also cue a battery of guns, a squadron of tanks and IFVs or a light infantry platoon using the same system.

I understand that is the goal of the JADC2 system as it is the goal of the Ukrainian ComBAT battlefield management systems.


This is the key element in the NASAMs Troop that really fascinates me and largely why I am so keen to get them into the hands of troops in Canada.


I know that Canada has/had Battlefield Management Systems but I also sense that those systems seem to be constantly evolving just as all computer systems are constantly evolving.

On the other hand, even at the bleeding edge of technology Human Machine Interfaces / Workstations seem to be plateauing and the basic components of the station are well defined (monitors, keyboards, joystick/mouse/trackball, headset). It is that FDC/HMI that I am curious about.

Is there already a broad distribution of those, or similar, terminals, across the CF at large and within the Domestic Joint Task Forces in particular?

And Integrated Air Missile Defence - although a NORAD responsibility - is also a C(A)F responsibility that is top of mind with some folks.


A Return to the Past​

At least since the late 1960s, continental defence and NORAD have relied exclusively on fighter interceptors (notwithstanding the U.S.’s employment of short-range ground-based defences in the wake of 9/11). However, the new missile threat environment also raises a potential requirement for ground-based area or point defences to protect high-value targets in Canada and the U.S. For now, Canada possesses no such defences and a layer stretching across southern Canada would potentially make a significant contribution. In other words, continental defence may require a return to the 1950s-1960s interceptor architecture.

Those 19 Troops, netted in to the existing NORAD structure, to my mind, would provide those defences referenced in the article and also the Integrated Air Missile Defence referenced by both Minister Anand and General Eyre at the Trenton photo-op.

 
@Kirkhill the NASAM FDC isn’t the end all be all, MEADS, TTHAD and Patriot all have similar but different FDC’s.
For an unclassified discussion, let’s just accept that there needs to be more than just the NASAM FDC for an interlocking missile defense system.
 
This is the key element in the NASAMs Troop that really fascinates me and largely why I am so keen to get them into the hands of troops in Canada.
I don't think anyone here has anything against the NASMs system and I think it would be a great MRAD system to include in our total force structure.

What I think people are arguing against is what I believe they perceive to be your suggestion that a large, multi-layered national AD system become essentially the center point of our national defence strategy, which of course due to its scope would have to come at the expense of other defence capabilities.
 
@Kirkhill the NASAM FDC isn’t the end all be all, MEADS, TTHAD and Patriot all have similar but different FDC’s.
For an unclassified discussion, let’s just accept that there needs to be more than just the NASAM FDC for an interlocking missile defense system.

Accepted that there are alternate solutions. Perhaps we could pick one and implement it?

NASAMS appeals because it works with missiles that are already in our domestic catalogue if not inventory (I make no assumptions of how many Sidewinders, AMRAAMs and ESSMs Canada currently possesses). The VLS options for things like SM2,3 and 6 might be interesting for that reason as well with the added benefit of being able to launch Tomahawks, ESSMs and whatever else is compatible.

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And yes there is the Patriot solution

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But we don't have any of those and have no experience of them.

And ESSMs are cheaper than SM2s, 3s and 6s. But one FDC, regardless of the supplier could launch any of the missiles.
 
I don't think anyone here has anything against the NASMs system and I think it would be a great MRAD system to include in our total force structure.

What I think people are arguing against is what I believe they perceive to be your suggestion that a large, multi-layered national AD system become essentially the center point of our national defence strategy, which of course due to its scope would have to come at the expense of other defence capabilities.

An AD system will cost money.
A multi-layered system is going to be required.
It will be required for the Expeditionary Force
It is apparently being considered for the NORAD IAMD requirement.

Multi-layers

5-10 km?
C-UASs - MADIS
ManPADs - Stinger/Martlets/Starstreaks/Mistrals/RBS-70s
MSHORADs - as above plus RWS with autocannons
VSHORADs - as above plus Sidewinders

25 km ?

SHORADs - CAMM, IRIS, AIM-120s

50 km ?

MRADs - CAMM-ER, ESSMs

100 km?

LRADs - Patriots, CAMM-MR


THEADs
MEADs

SM3s and SM6s?

Aussie MRAD

Aussie SHORAD

Brit SHORAD/MRAD/LRAD

And an interesting review of Air Defence in the Baltic that does a creditable job of reviewing systems, capabilities and needs.

Danes contemplating adding a Patriot element to their NATO Heavy Brigade at the same time as they are adopting the Rheinmetall Skyranger for SHORAD

To live up to NATO requirements, there is also an ongoing process of procuring an air defence system for Denmark’s heavy infantry brigade. From an operational perspective it would make sense to invest in the MIM-104 PATRIOT system. Both Sweden, Germany and the Netherlands have this system in their inventories, and the missile belt from the Cold War period could more or less be re-established again giving the armed forces a mobile NATO integrated air defence system. Some sources have mentioning the possibility of buying six Patriot Systems together with the Norwegian Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile System (NASAMS) to provide layered air defence.


A final thought from the last link

If anybody was in doubt before, Denmark is now fully aligned with NATO.

Further proof of commitment was shown on 6 March 2022, when the Danish politicians agreed that the current security situation resulting from Russia’s aggression demands a historic response, and agreed to gradually increase the country’s defence spending to 2% of GDP by the end of 2033. The agreement is labelled ‘The National Compromise on Danish Security Policy’, and means there will be a significant strengthening of Denmark’s defence and security, as well as Denmark now fully complies with the Objectives of the 2014 Wales Summit. From a procurement perspective, the agreement adds DKK 18 billion to the defence budget from 2024, which will steadily increase to approximately DKK 53 billion in 2033.

As part of the national compromise, Denmark held a referendum on 1 June 2022, where Danish voters were given the option of retracting Denmark’s opt-out from the European Union’s Defence structures. A majority of voters decided to vote for retracting the opt-out, meaning Denmark can now join the European Defence Agency (EDA) and thereby can influence the Permanent Structured Cooperation (PESCO), which is part of the EU’s security and defence policy (CSDP). This will be a new asset when deciding what types of equipment Denmark shall buy in the future, and provides options for joint procurement with other EU countries. This decision by the Danish voters might also have a positive impact on Danish defence industry, as they can now participate in EDA projects on equal terms and will no longer be excluded from projects, as has happened in the past.

Denmark Canada needs to fully implement all of its NATO Capability Targets, in full and on time, with a special emphasis and urgency on all three of the prioritized capabilities. Until it does so, other Allies may potentially have to pick up part of Denmark’s Canada's fair share of the Alliance burden.”

To me it makes sense that any system bought should have domestic and expeditionary utility. And domestically, given that I agree with all the comments here, that the risk is low to very low (although I don't think it is negligible - as in "can be neglected") then that is why I would place the domestic capability in the hands of the Reserves with a Class B cadre.
 
Why the Air Defence threat isn't negligible.


Drones have shredded Russia's air defences – and America could be next​

Even the wealthiest and most powerful countries should be worried
DAVID AXE28 July 2023 • 1:14pm
David Axe


1700 drones are displayed before being sent to the frontline

The bizarre sight of a military air-defense vehicle, perched impotently atop the Russian ministry of defense building in Moscow, is a reminder that we’re in a new era of warfare. That Pantsir vehicle – a three-person system with a radar, twin 30-millimeter cannons and 12 short-range surface-to-air missiles – reportedly did nothing as an explosives-laden Ukrainian drone flew past on Sunday and struck a nearby skyscraper.

Small, cheap, one-way, exploding drones – which some observers call “suicide” or “kamikaze” drones – have been a staple of low-tech insurgencies for years now. Islamic State uses them. So do Houthi militants in Yemen.
But the Russians and Ukrainians have turned cheap drone warfare into an art. And neither side has figured out exactly how to defend against them. That has huge implications for the future of war. Even the wealthiest and most powerful countries should be worried.
It’s unclear what kind of drone Kyiv flew into Moscow last weekend. There are so many different drone types in use by the Ukrainian and Russian armed forces that they’re impossible to count.
Ukrainian troops favor octocopters or quadcopters that they either build themselves or buy off the shelf from DJI in China and Mavic in France. The two-pound DJI Mavic 3T, which retails for $7,000, is particularly popular. Russia imports drones from Iran, including 440-pound Shaheds that cost around $10,000 apiece.
Both sides also fly small, speedy racing drones that are just powerful enough to haul a grenade-size explosive—and damage an armored vehicle. Smaller drones are controlled by nearby operators holding a controller and seeing what the drone sees through its camera. Bigger drones follow satellite-navigation coordinates.
The great advantage of a drone, besides its low cost, is its small size and – believe it or not – low speed compared to a supersonic manned warplane. Air-defense radars are optimized for detecting large aircraft and missiles. And they have so-called “speed gates” that ignore very slow objects such as birds. It’s speed gates that make it so hard for radars to detect slowly-drifting spy balloons.
So it shouldn’t come as a surprise that the Pantsir air-defense vehicle in Moscow failed to stop the one-war drone attack on Sunday. The crew may never have seen the drone coming.
Ukrainian air-defenses have the same problem. Weekly barrages of Shaheds targeting Ukrainian cities and military bases are met with a fusillade of gun and missile fire. A few will still usually get through.
Desperate to combat the drones and struggling to acquire adequate numbers of modern air-defense vehicles, the Ukrainians have tried everything – even fitting old World War I machine guns to flexible mounts and aiming them into the sky. But as long as the best air-defenses are expensive and the cheap air-defenses are ineffective, there’s no panacea.
Even the Americans are worried. “The wars in Yemen and Ukraine show that actors like Iran can produce and proliferate large numbers of drones to U.S. adversaries without being a leader in drone technology,” Marcel Plichta, a former Pentagon analyst, wrote for the Irregular Warfare Initiative.
The key to defeating cheap drones is cheap air-defenses. Systems any country can acquire in sufficiently large numbers, and use constantly, in order to swat away the vast swarms of drones that even the most impoverished adversary can afford.
That could mean going back to the past, in a technological sense. During the Cold War, NATO armies fielded hundreds of Gepard air-defense vehicles, each packing a small radar and twin 35-millimeter guns. These aging vehicles, which were designed to shoot down helicopters—and thus don’t mind relatively low-speed targets—fell out of favor in the years right before the drone era. Most went into storage.
Now they’re back in demand in a big way. Germany has pulled 67 of the three-person Gepards out of warehouses and shipped them to Ukraine. The United States bought back more Gepards from Chile and plans to donate them to Ukraine, too.
The Gepards might help Ukraine blunt Russia’s drone swarms. Russia could pursue a similar strategy by reactivating some of its older Cold War air-defenses. But the rest of the world can’t count on limited stocks of surplus air-defense systems to protect it from cheap drones. When it comes to drones, defensive technology needs to catch up to offensive technology.
 
Why the Air Defence threat isn't negligible.

Nobody has argued that NASAMS is bad, or AD is not important.... What people have been doing is pointing out that your fixation on one issue/system has blinded you to everything else on this topic.

Defending Canada is not best done with NASAMS FDCs sitting in urban centres. Defending Canada is best done across the pond, with mobile systems staffed by professional troops. Those professionals can be part time, or full time back home, but Canada does not need/can't afford to waste resources, on a "home guard" with expensive top of the line kit "just in case". I think you've watched a few too many company marketing videos regarding new AD systems, and are ignoring that while the kit is new, none of the concepts, or capabilities are all that new. Even as a weather guy, I can see the problems with one FDC controlling AD, precision fires, and costal defence. Humans can only focus on so many thing, and the more you throw at them the greater the likelihood that things go off the rails fast.

To try to steer this back toward the topic at hand, I think a new VSHORAD/SHORAD system for the ResF might be a great way to get people back into the armouries, and make the ResF units relevant other than as staffing pools for the RegF.
 
Nobody has argued that NASAMS is bad, or AD is not important.... What people have been doing is pointing out that your fixation on one issue/system has blinded you to everything else on this topic.
My fixation is intentional. My concern is that there is a degree of tunnel vision as to what Canada's NATO Brigades and Defence should look like.
My point is that there are alternatives. And I feel strongly that AD is an under-appreciated one.

I have said repeatedly that I am not opposed to Canada's Mech Brigades and Heavy Armour. I have said that I have difficulty understanding why there isn't a different balance.

Defending Canada is not best done with NASAMS FDCs sitting in urban centres.
I'll come back to this.

Defending Canada is best done across the pond, with mobile systems staffed by professional troops.
I agree that is part of the requirement. I doubt the RCAF and the RCN see the problem in exactly the same light.

Those professionals can be part time, or full time back home, but Canada does not need/can't afford to waste resources, on a "home guard" with expensive top of the line kit "just in case".
If the overseas expeditionary force is going to be equipped then it should be equipped with expensive top of the line kit.
If the overseas expeditionary force is going to be equipped with expensive top of the line kit it will need a reserve capacity.
Just as a deployed field battery needs batteries at home for training, maintenance and replenishment so will a deployed air defence battery.

I am suggesting that if we are deploying one battery, of whatever composition, in the field then, based on longstanding practice we will probably be looking at 5 or 6 times that back in Canada.
1x Battery of M777s in Latvia
5x Batteries of M777s in Canada
Umpteen x Batteries of C3s in Canada's armouries.

I am merely recommending the standard practice assuming that Canada follows through and adopts a GBAD system beyond the MSHORAD type of battery. Basically I am saying that if Canada stands up 4 ADR again then there is room for repeating the experiments of the 1990s when the regiment was heavily populated with Reservists and there were three additional AD batteries in the Reserves.

Further, I am suggesting, that rather than leave the systems gathering dust in the armouries and warehouses that they be deployed to the Reserve units and regularly exercised in conjunction with the local airspace management systems and NORAD.

I am not creating Reservists to man an unnecessary Air Defence.
I am employing Reservists to man, and train, an Air Defence that has been deemed to be necessary.
Concurrently I am suggesting that those Reserve elements can be suitably deployed locally so as to be useful. Just in Case.
No different than a Reserve Mortar Platoon or a Reserve Pioneer Platoon.

I think you've watched a few too many company marketing videos regarding new AD systems, and are ignoring that while the kit is new, none of the concepts, or capabilities are all that new.
Agreed that nothing is new. Including the Total Force Air Defence Regiment and Batteries of the 1990s.

Even as a weather guy, I can see the problems with one FDC controlling AD, precision fires, and costal defence.
How about buying one work station for issuance to AD, LRPF and Coastal Defence batteries with one maintenance schedule, one set of spares, one training syllabus AND the ability, with an appropriate training delta, to rerole AD to Coastal Defence and Coastal Defence to LRPF.

Humans can only focus on so many thing, and the more you throw at them the greater the likelihood that things go off the rails fast.
True that.

And speaking of things going off of rails fast....

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The LAU-127, LAU-128, LAU-129 and LAU-139 are a part of Missile Rail launcher (MRL) family[4] of aircraft missile launchers manufactured by Marvin Engineering Co., Inc., based in Inglewood, California.[3][5]
MRL is also used surface-based launchers such as NASAMS-3 common rail for canister launcher and open launcher variants, and the AMRDEC Multi-Mission Launcher.[11]
Common hardware permits aircraft like the CF-18s to be re-tasked from Air Defence to Anti-Shipping to Air-to-Ground missions - with appropriate training deltas.



To try to steer this back toward the topic at hand, I think a new VSHORAD/SHORAD system for the ResF might be a great way to get people back into the armouries, and make the ResF units relevant other than as staffing pools for the RegF.

And there is an absolute point of agreement.

Just on definitions though.

I know the Stryker system is called M-SHORAD but given that its weapons are the line of sight Stingers and 30mm cannons then I think it might be described as an M-VSHORAD system (Manoeuvre - Very Short Range Air Defence System (5-10 km)).

NASAMs and SkySabre, with their Sidewinders, AIM-120s, ESSMs and CAMMs seem to be more generally considered to be SHORAD systems (20-50km?). Given that the launchers, sensors and FDCs can be separated by up to 20 km or so and the missiles are in the 20 km range then a single Troop could create a response capability that would easily cover a city the size of Calgary, or even Vancouver. Just in Case.

For reference - a link to the 4th Air Defence Regiment history.
 
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