C3 Howitzer Replacement

[Colin Parkinson]

I suspect their counting of operational 105mm's is rather optimistic.

 

[FJAG]

Being a min of 3 people per gun the new program likely will have an autoloader or atleast semi automated reducing crew needs which means additional PYs won't be needed. Given how many we are buying plus LRPF etc. We are wanting to get our arty out of enemy range.

You only need three to fire the M777 - everyone else does ammo. Autoloader SPs have notoriously small ammo magazines. They will need frequent reloading. Since guns are mobile forward rearming points have to be mobile with redundancy. There may - I repeat - may - be a saving in PYs, but when you consider upping from four to six guns in a battery and that ammo handling behind the detachment in both the battery (not to mention sustainment system) is minimal, I'll wait for what comes down the pipe to predict where the PYs end up.

Talking to the 3 Div commander yesterday, the armies mind set is that right now 777 in a conventional war would be setting up under enemy fire already. So how do we mitigate that? Increased range, but also trying to get faster to reduce time on location

Before USSR v 2.0 we organized and equipped ourselves for discretionary failed states scenarios and deferred preparing for deterrence or LSCO. We are now focusing on LSCO and deterrence - but we shouldn't mistakenly rule out that we might also need to do something else again like being a member of a coalition in a failed state scenario where SPs may not the the optimum solution. It's always good to have some options available. We already own the gun. Let's not throw it out.

To me the Army needs to decide what it wants to be when it grows up.

That's the right question.

Given the SPA numbers, and the reported intent to create a Light Bde, retaining the M777 makes sense - use 30th 11th and 56th to make numbers up for 2 RCHA as a 24 gun 777 Reg't - and the SPA for the rest for the other Artillery units.

I think of Canada having one light brigades as a global quick reaction force which tilts me more towards regulars - lets say 70/30. I would see 30 Fd and 42 Fd as the logical FGs for a third gun battery for 2 RCHA and additional STA and loitering munitions capabilities. Maybe even 49 Fd.

7 Tor, 11th and 56th I'd see as the 70% portion of two SW and south central Ontario based SP regiment supporting a brigade out of each of London and Toronto. And yes, I do see the complications relating to the limited ranges in Meaford. That's a problem looking for a workable solution.

SPs are the stuff of deterrence and mobilization including a forward presence capability. I see those more as 70/30 hybrids which support our mech brigades and maybe even additional motorized brigades. Don't forget AD's resurgence and - perhaps - LRPF.

As to 24 guns. I'm not sure that I see an eight-gun battery anymore. I'm not sure if anyone has done the terminal effect math of 155 projectiles and modern autoloaded guns, but I see the span of control and sustainment over more than six dispersed guns as problematic. I'd rather see a fourth battery of six guns if 24 guns are necessary. That said, in my mind I see a CS regiment having four fires batteries and a HQ battery. I see three six-gun batteries for CS and a fourth GS battery using primarily UAVs, radars and loitering munitions to provide STA and depth and precision fires across the whole brigade front.

 

[dapaterson]

If you want 49 FD to support 2 RCHA you should be required by law to drive from Sault Ste Marie to Petawawa after work on a Friday night, and stop for dinner at the Wendy's in Espanola before advocating such a thing.

Bonus points for grabbing your very late night snack at the Burger King in Deep River and wearing a cardboard crown while doing so.

 

[KevinB]

You only need three to fire the M777 - everyone else does ammo. Autoloader SPs have notoriously small ammo magazines. They will need frequent reloading. Since guns are mobile forward rearming points have to be mobile with redundancy. There may - I repeat - may - be a saving in PYs, but when you consider upping from four to six guns in a battery and that ammo handling behind the detachment in both the battery (not to mention sustainment system) is minimal, I'll wait for what comes down the pipe to predict where the PYs end up.

Before USSR v 2.0 we organized and equipped ourselves for discretionary failed states scenarios and deferred preparing for deterrence or LSCO. We are now focusing on LSCO and deterrence - but we shouldn't mistakenly rule out that we might also need to do something else again like being a member of a coalition in a failed state scenario where SPs may not the the optimum solution. It's always good to have some options available. We already own the gun. Let's not throw it out.

That's the right question.

I think of Canada having one light brigades as a global quick reaction force which tilts me more towards regulars - lets say 70/30. I would see 30 Fd and 42 Fd as the logical FGs for a third gun battery for 2 RCHA and additional STA and loitering munitions capabilities. Maybe even 49 Fd.

7 Tor, 11th and 56th I'd see as the 70% portion of two SW and south central Ontario based SP regiment supporting a brigade out of each of London and Toronto. And yes, I do see the complications relating to the limited ranges in Meaford. That's a problem looking for a workable solution.

SPs are the stuff of deterrence and mobilization including a forward presence capability. I see those more as 70/30 hybrids which support our mech brigades and maybe even additional motorized brigades. Don't forget AD's resurgence and - perhaps - LRPF.

As to 24 guns. I'm not sure that I see an eight-gun battery anymore. I'm not sure if anyone has done the terminal effect math of 155 projectiles and modern autoloaded guns, but I see the span of control and sustainment over more than six dispersed guns as problematic. I'd rather see a fourth battery of six guns if 24 guns are necessary. That said, in my mind I see a CS regiment having four fires batteries and a HQ battery. I see three six-gun batteries for CS and a fourth GS battery using primarily UAVs, radars and loitering munitions to provide STA and depth and precision fires across the whole brigade front.

CS rule of 1 sub unit / maneuver unit.
Given Canada has a perchance for 4 maneuver units / Bde, 4 gun batteries per Regt make sense for the CMbG’s .

I prefer 8 guns/ gun battery but can live with 6, - but with the 777, the main reason was the amount of guns you have and supporting only 3 LIB’s so 3 firing batteries of 8 guns per battery.

 

[KevinB]

If you want 49 FD to support 2 RCHA you should be required by law to drive from Sault Ste Marie to Petawawa after work on a Friday night, and stop for dinner at the Wendy's in Espanola before advocating such a thing.

Bonus points for grabbing your very late night snack at the Burger King in Deep River and wearing a cardboard crown while doing so.

I’d done that drive a few times (had grandparents in SSM). I’ve never done in an SMP vehicle but know a few folks that have - and it’s not a good drive at all.