CAF Security Forces [Split from RCN Anti Drone Weapon]

[SeaKingTacco]

Within the MP Group, there are already some diverse units and capabilities:

CFPSU
MPSS
CFNCIU

There is also an Air Marshall service attached to 1st Cdn Div.

A new security forces unit could be force generated. This would necessitate hiring some additional MPs and no doubt, paying more than we currently do.

Except that the leadership of the MP branch has managed to convince the leadership of the CAF and DND that they are a POLICE organization, and therefore not subject to taking direction from the Chain Of Command. I have personal experience in this regard

No Wing Commander responsible for valuable/security sensitive equipment that the US sells us with the understanding that we not “guard” it with 70 year old men/women is going to trust an MP CoC who feels that setting up a speed trap at the front gate is more important than guarding the QRA. Simply put- the RCAF has been burned too many times by the mP branch (see what I did there) to trust them again. Plus they are the worst paid police organization in Canada and are hemorrhaging people. Better to have an smaller mP branch that just does policing and a tailor made security force for each the RCN and RCAF that actually work for those two Commanders so there is no dilution of responsibilty.

 

[lenaitch]

As well as US personnel too

There is no record of uniformed, armed US security personnel in North Bay and I assume La Macaza was the same. USAF personnel, yes, since the warheads were technically under US control.

I know nothing about military organization but honestly don't see the need to set up a separate entity. Separate internal division, sure. Police services, other than the very small, have internal division of training, skills and responsibilities. If it is a deployed service, not everything will be physically present in every location. If the uniformed MP service has devolved to a glorified security guard service, change it back.

Or would it just be more cost effective and simpler to house the aircraft at close to the border US bases?

Or just contract Canadian military responsibilities to the US and be done with it. Calling oneself a sovereign nation has its costs.

 

[markppcli]

James Wolfe was an Army Officer, he was responsible for the glorious victory at the Plains of Abraham.... they are clearly Army!!!!

Just a thought but if we’re ditching British Naval traditions does that mean we should accept that the Canadian Army (1867) is senior to the RCN (1911)?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Just a thought but if we’re ditching British Naval traditions does that mean we should accept that the Canadian Army (1867) is senior to the RCN (1911)?

 

[brihard]

Within the MP Group, there are already some diverse units and capabilities:

CFPSU
MPSS
CFNCIU

There is also an Air Marshall service attached to 1st Cdn Div.

A new security forces unit could be force generated. This would necessitate hiring some additional MPs and no doubt, paying more than we currently do.

MPs have divested CFNCIU to CFINTCOM. CAF has stood up a Counter Intelligence Operator trade. Not every MP has remustered yet (I don’t know if all will or if they’re grandfather). But CI has been expressly recognized as not ideally placed within MP group.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

MPs have divested CFNCIU to CFINTCOM. CAF has stood up a Counter Intelligence Operator trade. Not every MP has remustered yet (I don’t know if all will or if they’re grandfather). But CI has been expressly recognized as not ideally placed within MP group.

Can confirm. I work extensively with the local CFNCIU. They are “MP”s, but not badged police officers. They are all remustering to the new trade.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

MPs have divested CFNCIU to CFINTCOM. CAF has stood up a Counter Intelligence Operator trade. Not every MP has remustered yet (I don’t know if all will or if they’re grandfather). But CI has been expressly recognized as not ideally placed within MP group.

LOL, that's news to me so I googled it and it turns out it's a very recent change. I guess the MPs really don't want to exist

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Except that the leadership of the MP branch has managed to convince the leadership of the CAF and DND that they are a POLICE organization, and therefore not subject to taking direction from the Chain Of Command. I have personal experience in this regard

No Wing Commander responsible for valuable/security sensitive equipment that the US sells us with the understanding that we not “guard” it with 70 year old men/women is going to trust an MP CoC who feels that setting up a speed trap at the front gate is more important than guarding the QRA. Simply put- the RCAF has been burned too many times by the mP branch (see what I did there) to trust them again. Plus they are the worst paid police organization in Canada and are hemorrhaging people. Better to have an smaller mP branch that just does policing and a tailor made security force for each the RCN and RCAF that actually work for those two Commanders so there is no dilution of responsibilty.

Those are all fair comments. I am just wondering why the CAF didn't smash the MP CoC?

 

[KevinB]

Those are all fair comments. I am just wondering why the CAF didn't smash the MP CoC?

Remember the MP’s ‘needed’ to be independent due to their claims of command influence if they were not.

Meanwhile it was solely empire building.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Remember the MP’s ‘needed’ to be independent due to their claims of command influence if they were not.

Meanwhile it was solely empire building.

Which is exactly what Intelligence Command is also doing

 

[brihard]

Which is exactly what Intelligence Command is also doing

Counter Intelligence is very properly an Intelligence Command function.

 

[FJAG]

etter to have an smaller mP branch that just does policing and a tailor made security force for each the RCN and RCAF that actually work for those two Commanders so there is no dilution of responsibilty.

Or . . . turn policing over to the RCMP and revert the MPs to military security and field work. That will take care of the nasty chain of command problem.

Just a thought as I contemplate what other sacred cows to slaughter.

 

[FJAG]

I recall, RV-81, watching then Col Ian Douglas (COS Ops of the lets pretend 1 DDN Div) explode when our 'division' traffic control 'system' failed before it began because the MPs had forgotten how to do it. We had grade 2 and 3 staff officers - using the (very useful) part of CAMT 1-36 (Canadian Army Manual of Training - Staff Duties in the Field) that explained how to do a traffic plan - doing MPs sergeant's' jobs!

Prior to 81 we frequently had MPs out on brigade exercised doing traffic control, route marking - all those things they did back in WW2. Much of that was because most of our MPs in the 70s were still the army ones from pre unification. I think at RV 81 they got overwhelmed by the scale of a divisional exercise and by that time had started to carve out a purple "policing" role for themselves in lieu of fieldcraft.

 

[brihard]

Or . . . turn policing over to the RCMP and revert the MPs to military security and field work. That will take care of the nasty chain of command problem.

Just a thought as I contemplate what other sacred cows to slaughter.

I wonder how many of the MP positions are operational policing, or direct support roles that would need to be done by a sworn officer? And what would conversion over to civilian police presence look like?

A local police department would likely not need to telco MPs at a 1 to 1 ratio, if normal policing ends up being rolled in with the rest of municipal prioritization; the alternative being dedicated bodies who solely and exclusively replace the MPs. So, a domestic in the PMQ patch in Petawawa would go in through OPP dispatch and be subject to triage along with any other ongoing OPP files in that area. Alternatively, the OPP establish and fund new positions at 1:1 and a gaggle of them only police CFB Petawawa. I’d suggest the former is much more likely, and CAF just pays for a few more positions based on call volume added to the detachment.

On the investigative side, does CFNIS convert entirely to, say, RCMP with a 1:1 replacement and fenced funding? Or do their files also get subjected to prioritization within the RCMP federal policing intake? Many NIS files would likely struggle to triage federally; at most they’d be akin to minor municipal drug trafficking files. So there’s probably not an existing template to drop this into.

Some of the ‘protective’ MP stuff - CP, Air Marshal - might have a more natural home within the new Security Force, and become a bit of a cookie to dangle those within the Security Force as a specialized career option. Or for reasons I’m not immediately thinking of, maybe those stay strict MP.

But I think all of this deserves a ground up assessment starting with a blank whiteboard.