CAF Security Forces [Split from RCN Anti Drone Weapon]

[daftandbarmy]

Only option is to take all those foreign students and make a Foreign Legion of security guards.

There's a precedent for that

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Hmm…a CFL, training base in Wainwright…5 years service then citizenship…

Do they have to learn both official languages too? Can I sign up?

Please try to keep up: Asian = "New whites" So you don't qualify. Your own damn fault for not staying downtrodden and getting ahead by hard work and sacrifice.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Please try to keep up: Asian = "New whites" So you don't qualify. Your own damn fault for not staying downtrodden and getting ahead by hard work and sacrifice.

Now now... don't denigrate Asians like that

Above-average educational attainment among many Asian populations​

Many Asian populations attained a bachelor’s degree or higher at rates that were well above the national average of 32.9%. Over half of the Korean, Chinese, South Asian and West Asian populations and over 40% of the Arab, Japanese and Filipino populations had a bachelor’s degree or higher (Chart 1).

In most cases, this high educational attainment was consistent across genders and generations. Among each of these seven groups, the share with a bachelor’s degree or higher was over 40% among both first- and second-generation women and men, except for first-generation (39.8%) and second-generation (29.9%) Filipino men. It was also over 40% among the third-generation-or-more Japanese and Chinese populations, though it was lower among third-generation-or-more South Asian people (26.3%).

A portrait of educational attainment and occupational outcomes among racialized populations in 2021

This Census in Brief article focuses on the education of racialized groups based on data from the 2021 Census of Population. It examines differences in educational attainment between and within racialized groups. The article also provides information on whether racialized populations found jobs...

www12.statcan.gc.ca

 

[dimsum]

Now now... don't denigrate Asians like that

Above-average educational attainment among many Asian populations​

Many Asian populations attained a bachelor’s degree or higher at rates that were well above the national average of 32.9%. Over half of the Korean, Chinese, South Asian and West Asian populations and over 40% of the Arab, Japanese and Filipino populations had a bachelor’s degree or higher (Chart 1).

In most cases, this high educational attainment was consistent across genders and generations. Among each of these seven groups, the share with a bachelor’s degree or higher was over 40% among both first- and second-generation women and men, except for first-generation (39.8%) and second-generation (29.9%) Filipino men. It was also over 40% among the third-generation-or-more Japanese and Chinese populations, though it was lower among third-generation-or-more South Asian people (26.3%).

A portrait of educational attainment and occupational outcomes among racialized populations in 2021

This Census in Brief article focuses on the education of racialized groups based on data from the 2021 Census of Population. It examines differences in educational attainment between and within racialized groups. The article also provides information on whether racialized populations found jobs...

www12.statcan.gc.ca

I’m actually surprised it’s that low.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I’m actually surprised it’s that low.

The phalanx of Tiger Moms will redouble their efforts

 

[Kirkhill]

Perrin Beatty 1987

Right then. Righter now.












Summary of Intent -

Canadian Rangers - Continue
Special Service Force - Replace
Territorial Brigades - Task and Equip Properly (Reserves)
Vital Point Guards - Create and Equip Properly (Reserves - Minimally Trained - up to 90,000 of them planned)
Northern Training Centre

I would take 2nd and 5th Brigades and remodel them on the Special Service Force structure and form them into a separate Division tasked to Joint Task Force North, along with Canadian Rangers Patrol Group 1. Allied to US 11th Abn Div.

Keep in mind that Perrin's Reserves were to be equipped with 1000 Bv206s and 200 Bison APCs.

 

[FJAG]

Summary of Intent -

Canadian Rangers - Continue
Special Service Force - Replace
Territorial Brigades - Task and Equip Properly (Reserves)
Vital Point Guards - Create and Equip Properly (Reserves - Minimally Trained - up to 90,000 of them planned)
Northern Training Centre

I would take 2nd and 5th Brigades and remodel them on the Special Service Force structure and form them into a separate Division tasked to Joint Task Force North, along with Canadian Rangers Patrol Group 1. Allied to US 11th Abn Div.

Keep in mind that Perrin's Reserves were to be equipped with 1000 Bv206s and 200 Bison APCs.

I'm about 80% on board.

 

[Kirkhill]

https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/lbrr/archives/jf%201525.c74%20g43%201988-eng.pdf

A 1987 study on Vital Point protection

Good read. Little has changed.

Problems identifying what are Vital Points.
Who is responsible for protecting them.
Owners; Private Corporations; Municipal, Provincial and Federal Police; Canadian Forces (Regular and Reserve); Private security; Contract security.
What threats.
When.
Peace, Emergency, War.
Apathy.
Access to useful intelligence in Canada from federal agencies, intelligence that is readily available in the UK and the US.

Preliminary estimate base on incomplete data suggested 19,000 VP guards could be put to use for the duration of an emergency. Still looking for the reference but my recollection was that Beatty called for a force 5 times that size. The training standard would be that established by the RCMP for special or auxiliary constables - about 10 days to create a static guard.

Aerial threats were explicitly outside the realm of the 1987 study.

The same study was already discussing the threat moving past gun and bomb sabotage to computers, electronic warfare and propaganda psyops.

....

2024-1987 = 37 years of slumber.

We mashed the ignore button on the alarm and went back to sleep.

 

[Kirkhill]

US Army and US Air Force and Base Defense.

'Everybody's going to have to figure this out': Army, Air Force debate base defense amid new threats - Breaking Defense

Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall recently suggested his service could take over the task of defending its air bases from the Army, as long as adequate funding was provided.

breakingdefense.com

WASHINGTON — When President-elect Donald Trump’s new defense secretary takes the reins of the Pentagon next year, they may quickly be faced with an internal debate to settle: whether the Army should continue with its traditional role of providing defenses for air bases, or whether the Air Force steps up to the task on its own.

At the core of the issue is not only the capabilities brought to the fight by each service, but how they will be funded. The Army has traditionally been charged with defending air bases, which is part of the reason why systems like Patriot and THAAD (Terminal High Altitude Area Defense) reside under the service’s control. But tepid investment during the Global War on Terror years, alongside the proliferation of missile threats from China and Russia, has led Air Force officials to begin openly grumbling that they feel the Army can’t, or won’t, make air base defense a priority — and that a change may be due.

I'll see you Base Defence and raise you Close Air Support.

....

“People keep saying, ‘Why isn’t the Army defending our air bases?’ And the answer is, there is nowhere near enough missile defense capacity for everything we need to defend. That is true of air bases, and true of lots of other kinds of bases, it’s true in Ukraine, in Israel — it’s not just the Air Force assets that need tons more help, it’s everything,” Karako said.

....

Just did a quick take on the RRCA from their Regimental site and decided to count batteries rather than regiments.

Came up with 40 Reserve batteries and 15 Regular batteries. How many of those could be turned into Air Defence batteries?

...

 

[FJAG]

Just did a quick take on the RRCA from their Regimental site and decided to count batteries rather than regiments.

Came up with 40 Reserve batteries and 15 Regular batteries. How many of those could be turned into Air Defence batteries?

...

View attachment 89455

Canada had 5 reserve force batteries designated air defence from 1992 to 2011 and armed with S-15 Javelins (albeit they reroled to field artillery around 2005) There were quite a few more pre-1970.

The UK currently has one reserve air defence regiment - 106 (Yeomanry) Regt RA - with three batteries armed with Starstreak (essentially a Javelin replacement). Two batteries will be armoured and support manoeuvre forces and one equipped with dismounted light multiple launchers (LML)

106 RA is part of 7 AD Group, paired with 12 Regt RA and forms part of the Allied Rapid Reaction Corps.

The picture you posted is a NASAMS. I'm not aware of any country that assigns those to reserve forces. Based on the range, system components, role within an integrated system and probable maintenance requirements makes me think it would probably be a poor fit for reservists.

Canada is acquiring RBS 70 NG Manpad for Latvia under UOR which will be tasked to 4 Regt (GS) as well as a VSHORAD component under the GBAD project. IMHO, both of those are operable by reservists within a total force unit. I expect that 4 Regt (GS) will be the mounting unit for them which, IMHO, means the 5 Div reserve force arty units should be converting to supporting 4 Regt (GS) including in the AD VSHORAD and Manpad roles. That would make up to 4 batteries available (2 in NS and 2 in NB). I'd stretch it to adding 58 Battery from 6 RAC in Val Bel-Air in Quebec which was once a Javelin battery

 

[Kirkhill]

Canada had 5 reserve force batteries designated air defence from 1992 to 2011 and armed with S-15 Javelins (albeit they reroled to field artillery around 2005) There were quite a few more pre-1970.

The UK currently has one reserve air defence regiment - 106 (Yeomanry) Regt RA - with three batteries armed with Starstreak (essentially a Javelin replacement). Two batteries will be armoured and support manoeuvre forces and one equipped with dismounted light multiple launchers (LML)

106 RA is part of 7 AD Group, paired with 12 Regt RA and forms part of the Allied Rapid Reaction Corps.

The picture you posted is a NASAMS. I'm not aware of any country that assigns those to reserve forces. Based on the range, system components, role within an integrated system and probable maintenance requirements makes me think it would probably be a poor fit for reservists.

Canada is acquiring RBS 70 NG Manpad for Latvia under UOR which will be tasked to 4 Regt (GS) as well as a VSHORAD component under the GBAD project. IMHO, both of those are operable by reservists within a total force unit. I expect that 4 Regt (GS) will be the mounting unit for them which, IMHO, means the 5 Div reserve force arty units should be converting to supporting 4 Regt (GS) including in the AD VSHORAD and Manpad roles. That would make up to 4 batteries available (2 in NS and 2 in NB). I'd stretch it to adding 58 Battery from 6 RAC in Val Bel-Air in Quebec which was once a Javelin battery

The picture you posted is a NASAMS. I'm not aware of any country that assigns those to reserve forces.

Except for the US?

SAM System That Guards Washington DC Just Made Its Lowest Ever Intercept Of A Mock Cruise Missile

The National Advanced Surface to Air Missile System is critical to protecting Washington, D.C. and surrounding areas from air and missile threats.

www.twz.com

The service’s 82nd Aerial Targets Squadron managed the launch and operation of the BQM-167, while personnel from the U.S. Army’s 263rd Army Air and Missile Defense Command and 1st Battalion, 204th Air Defense Artillery manned the NASAMS. The 263rd is part of the South Carolina Army National Guard, while 1-204th is an element of the Mississippi Army National Guard.

Guard units prepped by big Army for capital air defense mission

MCGREGOR RANGE, N.M. - Two Army National Guard units will soon be using a combination of air defense systems to guard the National Capital Region and the nation's leaders.The 2nd Battalion, 174th Air

www.nationalguard.mil

....

I appreciate that the UK only has a small Air Defence capability and that that is tasked to protecting the manoeuvre elements. On the other hand the US, with a much larger Air Defence capability that extends to protecting theatres (even if only aspirationally) finds itself making comments like this.

“People keep saying, ‘Why isn’t the Army defending our air bases?’ And the answer is, there is nowhere near enough missile defense capacity for everything we need to defend. That is true of air bases, and true of lots of other kinds of bases, it’s true in Ukraine, in Israel — it’s not just the Air Force assets that need tons more help, it’s everything,” Karako said.

The threat is probably more ubiquitous now than at any time since WW2 with the difference being that in WW2 North America was relatively immune from the types of threats Europe was experiencing. I'm not sure we can safely say that about current threats. I'm pretty sure the Americans are not sure about having adequate national air defences.

...

The crew burden for the NASAMs system doesn't appear particularly onerous. 40 Batteries. Could we afford 10 batteries with 3 or 4 troops apiece? The missiles are the same ones the RCAF employs or has employed.

The AMRAAM is one of the most widely used air-to-air missiles in the world, and stockpiles of it are higher than any other comparable system. As NASAMS uses existing air-to-air missiles such as the AIM-9 Sidewinder, AMRAAM, and AMRAAM-ER, there may be thousands of older missiles in NATO's arsenal that can be fired from a NASAMS battery without change. The AIM-9X variant includes an internal cooling system, eliminating the need for launch-rail nitrogen supply required by older variants of the missile.

A report has described NASAMS as "extremely well suited to Ukraine because of the massive numbers of missiles that NATO and allies can supply, specifically for the air defence system."In particular, older AMRAAM A and B models have been replaced, making available many older missiles which could be sent to Ukraine. For example the UK government has offered to donate "[h]undreds of additional air defence missiles" including the AMRAAMs.

nasams

The National Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile System, best known as NASAMS™, is a highly adaptable mid-range air defense solution.

www.rtx.com

It has also been certified with the ESSM used by the RCN

Successful demonstration of ground launched ESSM - KONGSBERG

www.kongsberg.com

NASAMS

NASAMS Norwegian Advanced Surface to Air Defense Missile System - Norway Description Technical Data Specificatio

armyrecognition.com

...

 

[Kirkhill]

Delete - Double post.

 

[FJAG]

Except for the US?

SAM System That Guards Washington DC Just Made Its Lowest Ever Intercept Of A Mock Cruise Missile

The National Advanced Surface to Air Missile System is critical to protecting Washington, D.C. and surrounding areas from air and missile threats.

www.twz.com

Careful how you interpret that.

The 263rd is not a unit. It's a formation that commands the 678 ADA Bde which commands the 1-178 FAR (a fd arty unit) and the 2-263 ADA which is an Avenger Bn. The 1-204 ADA is a separate Avenger Bn attached to the 66th Troop Command. These organizations were involved in NASAMS testing but do not themselves hold NASAMS.

The defence of air space around Washington is the responsibility of the National Capitol Regions - Integrated Air Defence Mission commanded by the Joint Air Defence Operation Center which has elements from both the ARNG and ANG attached on a rotational basis. The ground elements are Avenger ADA Bns. They do not have NASAMS. The NASAMs belong to the NCR-IAD

There are seven ARNG bns that do rotational deployments. Roughly 220 ARNG/ANG members are involved in each rotation to the NCR in support of JADOC. These rotations have been going on for some time, for example the 164 ADA Bde from Florida - which has two Avenger Bns with a total of 8 batteries did its 8th rotation in 2023. For rotations, ARNG ADA elements are federalized to full-time Active Duty. They conduct a 36-day predeployment "Massive Training Event" which culminates in live-fire certification. I'm not sure of the length of all rotations or how many bns contribute concurrently other than I know that in 2021 Battery C of the 3-265 ADA Bn return to Florida after an 8-month rotation to Washington.

To summarize. NASAMS are currently not ARNG systems. There are a total of seven ARNG ADA battalions and they are all Avenger units. These battalions have elements that are federalized for full-time rotational service in the NCR where a fixed installation system exists and they are provided with both Avenger and NASAM systems after being trained on them and live-fire certified.

That's quite different from what 106 RA does as a part-time Starstreak regiment and whose troops are trained and equipped to run their systems in the field. Canada was quite able to run Javelin systems with total force regts/btys that was Class A and a fairly robust RegF element with them. I have no doubt we could do the same with RBS 70 NGs. I don't doubt either that given a large enough RegF cadre and appropriate training we could run a NASAMS battery or two even with a majority of Class As . . . but the army won't do that because for a half billion it becomes a RegF thing and they need to protect the PYs that come with it and I expect it will deploy to Latvia and need to be manned full-time and not part-time . . . all of that means RegF and Class C.

 

[Jarnhamar]

As much as we want to see MP fired and regulated to a 1500 person US Security Force mosid that's not on the table.

Prime running COSa are a temporary US security force and a new caf trade, similar to the AOS one.

 

[Kirkhill]

Look at why I found rummaging around the cellars of this site

Thread 'Airfield defence role for PRes? (From: "Re-Royalization")'

19 May 2015

RCAF is trying to learn and retain a semblance of Army fighting skills and there is still no dedicated base defence unit like the RAF Regt.

<tangent>

We have fighters and other expensive hardware in bases and deployed in QRAs.  Who provides the security for that? 

Note:  I'm not advocating for the start-up of an "RAF Regt" or "RAAF Airfield Defence Guards".

</tangent>

• dimsum
• Replies: 219
• Forum: Joint Forces

Some relevant quotes

<tangent>

We have fighters and other expensive hardware in bases and deployed in QRAs. Who provides the security for that?

Note: I'm not advocating for the start-up of an "RAF Regt" or "RAAF Airfield Defence Guards".

</tangent>

Think Gulf War I in Qatar: we used regular Canadian infantry to defend the airfield. It's a legitimate task for infantry and air defence artillery.

Agreed and I'm sure that there are enough PRes troops who would be interested in a tasking like this.



Sadly.....

And I think airfield defence is a task for which a regional battalion could train so that it could have a platoon ready to go on short notice (say 10 days) and the rest of a company ready in another 20 days. And I suspect the equipment table for such a task is manageable for a reserve unit.

Easy fix.

Send in a Reg force element and seven days later rotate them out for their P Res replacements who have the long term task.

These are not issues that are difficult to solve. The problem is that there is very little will within the Reg F military establishment to assign standing tasks to P Res elements based on the fiction that they are not reliable and that you can't count on volunteers to show up when needed and that the administration to get them deployed takes too long. All self-inflicted wounds.

The power to call up reservists exists in the NDA but we've developed a culture within the government and especially the DND hierarchy to not use that power; this leaves us with a tradition of calling for individual volunteers from the P Res for each and every op or tasking -- basically a system that fosters uncertainty and so called unreliability.

I don't point at the US NG as THE model to replicate but it does show that one can have a low cost stand-by force that can be counted on to be there when a surge capability is needed.

But, I'm rambling again. If I don't watch out I'll be blithering on about why do we have Reg F armoured and artillery regiments when we only use them every half century? Wouldn't these be perfectly appropriate tasks to give to the reserves?

:bla-bla:

:cheers:

The other 'fiction' is that Reservists can't deploy because of full time jobs and family.

80% of my unit are kids at school, or employed in a variety of temporary/ low wage jobs.

Most would fight tooth and nail for a Class B or C position, doing anything.

....

The assumption in all of these was that the airfield being defended was overseas. Not in the reservists home town. Useful trial station - Winnipeg. The Armoury is on the air base. Greenwood/Aldershot. Lethbridge...

 

[dimsum]

Look at why I found rummaging around the cellars of this site

Thread 'Airfield defence role for PRes? (From: "Re-Royalization")'

19 May 2015

RCAF is trying to learn and retain a semblance of Army fighting skills and there is still no dedicated base defence unit like the RAF Regt.

<tangent>

We have fighters and other expensive hardware in bases and deployed in QRAs.  Who provides the security for that? 

Note:  I'm not advocating for the start-up of an "RAF Regt" or "RAAF Airfield Defence Guards".

</tangent>

• dimsum
• Replies: 219
• Forum: Joint Forces

Some relevant quotes













....

The assumption in all of these was that the airfield being defended was overseas. Not in the reservists home town. Useful trial station - Winnipeg. The Armoury is on the air base. Greenwood/Aldershot. Lethbridge...

Yeah, the argument was for deployed force protection at the time.

Cold Lake doesn’t have a big Reserve presence so there would need to be a unit of some sort there. I would argue that the trial base should be one where the assets will be most required - Cold Lake, Bagotville, Comox, or Greenwood at first.

Putting it in an area with established Reserve presence but not as high a need may prove the staffing requirements but if those can’t be replicated in Cold Lake then the point is moot.

 

[GR66]

Devil's advocate here...wouldn't the most likely timing of an enemy attack on our domestic facilities be a surprise attack at the outset of hostilities? Strike to take out key assets before we are prepared and on a full war footing? Once we KNOW we're at war security would increased immediately.

Doesn't that suggest that any security forces should be full-time Reg Force units rather than part-time Reserve units that would be activated only when there is a threat confirmed?

 

[Kirkhill]

Yeah, the argument was for deployed force protection at the time.

Cold Lake doesn’t have a big Reserve presence so there would need to be a unit of some sort there. I would argue that the trial base should be one where the assets will be most required - Cold Lake, Bagotville, Comox, or Greenwood at first.

Putting it in an area with established Reserve presence but not as high a need may prove the staffing requirements but if those can’t be replicated in Cold Lake then the point is moot.

Greenwood and Comox seem like good test locations to me. Greenwood already has an Army Reserve presence on the ground, with an established history of Class B and C service and the CanScots have a platoon/company at Courtenay.

Is the point moot at Bagotville and Cold Lake? What happens if Cold Lake and Bagotville were to revert to training ranges and the squadrons were relocated to the nearest large metropolitan airfield, or even dispersed among several metropolitan areas? Local noise pollution possibly, but does it have to be any worse than the noise of civilian traffic? More money spent on fuel accessing the training areas?

It seems that the mountains aren't coming to Mohammed anytime soon so perhaps it is time to consider moving Mohammed to the mountains.

 

[ArmyRick]

new caf trade, similar to the AOS one.

The who? AOS? What is that? I am a retired dinosaur, please bring me up to speed.

 

[ArmyRick]

Not to be an asshole, but has anyone thought of re-rolling ARes Infantry and so called armour as Force protection units? A permanent role that they have done in Afghanistan and could be a realistic use of them in the future?

Keep in mind, I was infantry.