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Anyone encouraged after listening to the LFWA DCOMM Speech on why we all should spend time in Wainwright this summer....
Camp Wainwright after the DCOMM Speech! LFWA Wise
- Thread starter cbt arms sub tech
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Didn't hear it. Do you have a link?
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Seems like he's going to each armoury in LFWA concerning reserves giving his question & answer period, an asking troops to instruct in Wainwright!
The impression I got after attending the "town hall" meeting at Camp Wainwright a wek ago, was that there were severe personell sustainment issues regarding the Militia's ability to provide instructors for the summer taskings that provide their trained soldiers, and thus the future of their Regiments. As a WATC WO said "You don't feed the cow, cow dies, no more milk." Inother words, if all the Offrs, WOs, and Snr NCOs find it inconvenient to spend time training their own, they will have no soldiers - or reason to be employed as leaders - in five years. So start feeding the cow. Seems like a simple plan. Comments?
Tom
Tom
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Well Put Tom, basically we're not in great shape, although we need to start putting time & effort into it...Wondering if conditions will change in Wainwright so people want to head up there?
Well, there are two types of conditions - human and physical. As far as physical goes, we at CMTC are presently housed in Building 152 - the same building I waited outside of for 12 hours to clear out of MILCON and into SSEP as a 16 year old LSSR private in 1971. It's old, but it works and we have a lot of fun in it.
I live (IR) in building 18, originally Snr NCO Qtrs for 6 Div , then German POW Sr NCOs. It isn't the best, but fine for me, and I will avoid moving into 220 so the single guys who call the shack "Home" can have a bigger room.
The trailers are small, but beat the 80 lbr / 160 lbr tents we taught SSEP/RESO1/2 out of in the 1970s.
I guess the question comes down to the climate of command you work in and the people you work with. Do you feel welcome? Are you valued? Do you fit in and belong? Even in the Regs, that can change every APS.
I understand the issues regarding young single soldiers being torn away from a vibrant night life to spend the summers in Wx, while Jody gets his girl for the summer in Calgary. Hey, I was young once, too.
Don't know all the answers. I do know that from the summer of 1971 to the summer of 1976, the Militia courses I was on/taught were largely staffed by the militia and the RSS. The Regs just can't open up another sardine can of instructors for the summer. That's what going from 90,000 to 52,000 does.
I think making courses longer, not garunteeing a complete summer's employment for Militia students, and raising the enlisment age from 16 to 17 did the Militia more harm than good, but others may disageree with me.
I do know that with all it's problems, we need the Militia as a structure for mobilization if nothing else, and every time we try to make it something it wasn't meant to be, we only break it more.
Having said that, IBTS and BTS are universal, and we should be talking about part time and full time professionals who do the best they can with what they have, while they have it.
See you in Wx!
Tom
I live (IR) in building 18, originally Snr NCO Qtrs for 6 Div , then German POW Sr NCOs. It isn't the best, but fine for me, and I will avoid moving into 220 so the single guys who call the shack "Home" can have a bigger room.
The trailers are small, but beat the 80 lbr / 160 lbr tents we taught SSEP/RESO1/2 out of in the 1970s.
I guess the question comes down to the climate of command you work in and the people you work with. Do you feel welcome? Are you valued? Do you fit in and belong? Even in the Regs, that can change every APS.
I understand the issues regarding young single soldiers being torn away from a vibrant night life to spend the summers in Wx, while Jody gets his girl for the summer in Calgary. Hey, I was young once, too.
Don't know all the answers. I do know that from the summer of 1971 to the summer of 1976, the Militia courses I was on/taught were largely staffed by the militia and the RSS. The Regs just can't open up another sardine can of instructors for the summer. That's what going from 90,000 to 52,000 does.
I think making courses longer, not garunteeing a complete summer's employment for Militia students, and raising the enlisment age from 16 to 17 did the Militia more harm than good, but others may disageree with me.
I do know that with all it's problems, we need the Militia as a structure for mobilization if nothing else, and every time we try to make it something it wasn't meant to be, we only break it more.
Having said that, IBTS and BTS are universal, and we should be talking about part time and full time professionals who do the best they can with what they have, while they have it.
See you in Wx!
Tom
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Tom,
What do you do in Wainwright curious, you actually live in the camp as well, I guess if rent is cheap, why not right!
What do you do in Wainwright curious, you actually live in the camp as well, I guess if rent is cheap, why not right!
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TCBF said:
Oh! My God! Tom
We were on the same SSEP in 1971. Park Hotel and Wainwright Hotel. Gomer Pyle Huts. Survival trg. One week in the woods outside Hinton. My first beer ( then 1st Pint of Capt Morgan Dark). ;D
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After the "Waincon" I got put into the Civie side of the house. Walked into the H Hut as a no hook Gunner in my Battle Dress and had all these guys calling me sir....until I found a bunk and changed into jeans and shirt like them. Did a lot of semi-military and survival training culminating in a week in the woods in the foothills outside Hinton. Then back to the Guns in Yorkton.
Brad Sallows
Army.ca Legend
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>Inother words, if all the Offrs, WOs, and Snr NCOs find it inconvenient to spend time training their own
I have never seen any figures on available strengths, or demographic changes which affect availability.
I do know that for the past decade (plus), people have warned about the problem of maintaining a critical mass of instructors and lamented the various factors thought to aggravate shortages and attrition. Commanders at various levels from time to time have been exposed to comments, criticisms, and suggestions. Taken together with all the other things which were thought important, decisions were made, not all of which resulted in making sure all courses were run as proposed each year. If you eat the seed corn or fail to lay enough aside or it isn't as fertile as it used to be, the consequences are predictable.
I have never seen any figures on available strengths, or demographic changes which affect availability.
I do know that for the past decade (plus), people have warned about the problem of maintaining a critical mass of instructors and lamented the various factors thought to aggravate shortages and attrition. Commanders at various levels from time to time have been exposed to comments, criticisms, and suggestions. Taken together with all the other things which were thought important, decisions were made, not all of which resulted in making sure all courses were run as proposed each year. If you eat the seed corn or fail to lay enough aside or it isn't as fertile as it used to be, the consequences are predictable.
This was July 1971, right? During MILCON, we were track toads in the back of a 2PPCLI M113A1.
I didn't know there was a civie SSEP running there at the same time! We were cleaning our FN C1s on ponchos in the shade behind the range, when we were told to leave one sentry to watch the stripped rifles and the rest would form up. So we did. A chinook (remember Cdn Chinooks?) lands, some general gets out, the Sh_thook takes off, and we get felled out.
To go back and find the helicopter inspired tornado has deposited a yhick layer of sand on and in our stripped weapons. Talk about a bunch of disloyal 16 year olds with guns after that.
Tom
I didn't know there was a civie SSEP running there at the same time! We were cleaning our FN C1s on ponchos in the shade behind the range, when we were told to leave one sentry to watch the stripped rifles and the rest would form up. So we did. A chinook (remember Cdn Chinooks?) lands, some general gets out, the Sh_thook takes off, and we get felled out.
To go back and find the helicopter inspired tornado has deposited a yhick layer of sand on and in our stripped weapons. Talk about a bunch of disloyal 16 year olds with guns after that.
Tom
"If you eat the seed corn or fail to lay enough aside or it isn't as fertile as it used to be, the consequences are predictable."
I think a combination of making the courses longer, increasing the enrolment age for the Militia from 16 to 17, and not guaranteeing full summer employment to students, and a lack of funding and imagination, has contributed to the problem of an insufficient number of Militia NCOs to teach courses in the summer.
Tom
I think a combination of making the courses longer, increasing the enrolment age for the Militia from 16 to 17, and not guaranteeing full summer employment to students, and a lack of funding and imagination, has contributed to the problem of an insufficient number of Militia NCOs to teach courses in the summer.
Tom
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I taught for allot of years in Wx and after dealing with the attitude from allot of the regular force members towards the reserves in both basic and advanced training companies of both the PPCLI battle school and WATC I know why they are having a hard time getting instructor cadre in for the summers.
Even after repeated assurances that the reserve instructor cadre would be treated with respect and in a professional manor there were repeated references to F'in MO and other derogatory remarks. It became obvious that the Wainwright Mafia was alive and well. The full time cadre got the time off for Golf tournaments, hockey, rec days etc and the reserve cadre on the same course had to take up the slack.
I know allot of members who would love to work for the summer but the only proviso is that it is not in Wainwright. The last time I was there I submitted a list to the Advance Trg Coy Sgt Major on his request as to the problems encountered by a reserve NCO instructor by the base and training center. \
They wonder why those who have the option of not going back don't??????
There, I feel much better now that I have had my little rant.
Even after repeated assurances that the reserve instructor cadre would be treated with respect and in a professional manor there were repeated references to F'in MO and other derogatory remarks. It became obvious that the Wainwright Mafia was alive and well. The full time cadre got the time off for Golf tournaments, hockey, rec days etc and the reserve cadre on the same course had to take up the slack.
I know allot of members who would love to work for the summer but the only proviso is that it is not in Wainwright. The last time I was there I submitted a list to the Advance Trg Coy Sgt Major on his request as to the problems encountered by a reserve NCO instructor by the base and training center. \
They wonder why those who have the option of not going back don't??????
There, I feel much better now that I have had my little rant.
Doesn't sound like a rant to me, just personal observations.
So, what's the solution? WATC staff understand the issues, they think Basic can be taught on the Armoury floor, and SQ/TQ# whatever taught in the summer, so that by Sep, units have trained soldiers to take to the field.
How do we convince Militia NCOs to come to Wx and teach for the summer?
Tom
So, what's the solution? WATC staff understand the issues, they think Basic can be taught on the Armoury floor, and SQ/TQ# whatever taught in the summer, so that by Sep, units have trained soldiers to take to the field.
How do we convince Militia NCOs to come to Wx and teach for the summer?
Tom
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When it comes to the more senior ranks ie: Sgt and above, most hold full time civilian jobs. They, and their employers cannot afford a two month absence from the workplace. This also applies to a lot of MCpls. In many, but not all cases, decentralization of the courses to Brigade or Unit level would solve the problem. It takes longer to complete on weekends but it is doable. We are currently running both a BMQ and a DP2 Armoured Recce courses out of our home facility, as well as a full Driver wheeled course and a Brigade PLQ in London. All three Units are participating and sharing resources. We are also preparing to kick off a Pre SQ course which will allow for a reduced length summer course. This will enable us to fit the remaining portion of the SQ and on completion flip the students to their MOC course and complete them both in the summer. Then on to their DP2 again in the fall at home.
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How to encourage reserve NCOs and Officers to come to Wx as instructor cadre?
1. Treat them like you would regular force members. That is to say, do not double and quaduple bunk instructor cadre.
2. Treat them according to rank.
3. Standardize standards so that there is no flip flopping of requirements for course reports/ weeklies etc.
4. Allow access for instructor cadre to the DIN and computers for course work.
5. Allow sufficient stores / access to training areas to instruct courses.
6. Get rid of the Wx Mafia
7. Make the course / RTU / Training failure system efficient. No more 800 kicks at the can for candidates that in the opinion of the course staff should be failures. We as an organization are too easy on troops on course. It is time to make the courses challenging enough to have a quality product at the end.
This is a start and I am confident that there are many other former instructors out there to add to the list.
GF
1. Treat them like you would regular force members. That is to say, do not double and quaduple bunk instructor cadre.
2. Treat them according to rank.
3. Standardize standards so that there is no flip flopping of requirements for course reports/ weeklies etc.
4. Allow access for instructor cadre to the DIN and computers for course work.
5. Allow sufficient stores / access to training areas to instruct courses.
6. Get rid of the Wx Mafia
7. Make the course / RTU / Training failure system efficient. No more 800 kicks at the can for candidates that in the opinion of the course staff should be failures. We as an organization are too easy on troops on course. It is time to make the courses challenging enough to have a quality product at the end.
This is a start and I am confident that there are many other former instructors out there to add to the list.
GF
"1. Treat them like you would regular force members. That is to say, do not double and quaduple bunk instructor cadre."
-until the new Yukon Lodge huts are built, and maybe after that, we will still have less than ideal qtrs at peak times. We have all done it in tents in the past. It's a wait and see, I guess.
2. Treat them according to rank.
Yup.
3. Standardize standards so that there is no flip flopping of requirements for course reports/ weeklies etc.
Yup
4. Allow access for instructor cadre to the DIN and computers for course work.
Big Yup. Even Reg Force Regts still have computer issues.
5. Allow sufficient stores / access to training areas to instruct courses.
Yup.
6. Get rid of the Wx Mafia
? Unclear. PM me if you have to.
7. Make the course / RTU / Training failure system efficient. No more 800 kicks at the can for candidates that in the opinion of the course staff should be failures. We as an organization are too easy on troops on course. It is time to make the courses challenging enough to have a quality product at the end.
-"If only I had such power in my hands." - A Bridge Too Far.
I don't necessarily think we are too easy on troops on course. It depends on the course and the instructors. I think that there have been cases of both railroading and lax standards, and prob this website can provide lots of testimonials for each. Perspective is everything, and perhaps no generation of soldiers ever thought the follow on generation was worth it's salt.
Tom
-until the new Yukon Lodge huts are built, and maybe after that, we will still have less than ideal qtrs at peak times. We have all done it in tents in the past. It's a wait and see, I guess.
2. Treat them according to rank.
Yup.
3. Standardize standards so that there is no flip flopping of requirements for course reports/ weeklies etc.
Yup
4. Allow access for instructor cadre to the DIN and computers for course work.
Big Yup. Even Reg Force Regts still have computer issues.
5. Allow sufficient stores / access to training areas to instruct courses.
Yup.
6. Get rid of the Wx Mafia
? Unclear. PM me if you have to.
7. Make the course / RTU / Training failure system efficient. No more 800 kicks at the can for candidates that in the opinion of the course staff should be failures. We as an organization are too easy on troops on course. It is time to make the courses challenging enough to have a quality product at the end.
-"If only I had such power in my hands." - A Bridge Too Far.
I don't necessarily think we are too easy on troops on course. It depends on the course and the instructors. I think that there have been cases of both railroading and lax standards, and prob this website can provide lots of testimonials for each. Perspective is everything, and perhaps no generation of soldiers ever thought the follow on generation was worth it's salt.
Tom
