Canadian Sniper holds World Record - Macleans Article

[big bad john]

This article is a must read.

http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/canada/article.jsp?content=20060515_126689_126689

May 15, 2005

'We were abandoned'

An elite unit of snipers went from standouts to outcasts -- victims, many say, of a witch hunt driven by jealousy and fear

MICHAEL FRISCOLANTI

 

[MdB]

I read the article in MacLean's paper version. It is very interesting and very thorough. At least, he seems to set the record straight by telling the story from the bullet and before until now.

The only thing is that he may not get access to the whole story. What are/were the motivations behind the CofC and NIS actions. We only get a glimpse from an NIS spokesperson, which is 'we did our job'. Now, we have to wait for the CF Ombudsman report on the investigation. He may tells us the rest of the story.

The other thing that struck me, being an officer candidate and CF member prospect, is that the soldier(s) think they are disposable. Really, to build confidence in the institution and to instill leadership and sense of belonging, it shatters pretty much any illusion you might have in case things go wrong like that. The guy was a hard-head... Don't think it's enough to justify what happened. I don't think too that, if Ombudsman's report blame the CofC/NIS, there will be any apologize.

 

[Pea]

I read that article a few days ago and found it to be a very good read. It was really insightful to read where each guy has ended up since, and what they thought of the situation and how it was handled.

 

[Bobbyoreo]

I found this was a very good article. Gave me more details.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

The only thing is that he may not get access to the whole story. What are/were the motivations behind the CofC and NIS actions. We only get a glimpse from an NIS spokesperson, which is 'we did our job'. Now, we have to wait for the CF Ombudsman report on the investigation. He may tells us the rest of the story.

Unfortunately, stories about staff officers and the enforcers of discipline don't sell very well, so that may be forlorn hope, at least as far as reading about it in Maclean's goes.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Not to be insensitive here but how many people come back from a tour and pull pin with no news fanfare?
They seem to all agree they weren't in it for the records.  I am surprised they published last names, esp of those still serving.  They did their job and did it well.  To me its a non issue.

How about the guy who killed a civie in A Stan who ran a police check point and is now not (to all accounts) allowed outside the wire to patrol and is being grilled by the keystone cops?

 

[Centurian1985]

(extensive rant deleted)

I find it shameful that they were treated that way.  :brickwall:

 

[little jim]

This board is an interesting and enlightening exchange of opinions and ideas.

Very recently there have been several posts (numerous) that have called into question statements made in various media pieces (LAV protection, Darfur)

That same mindset should be applied to this article.

It tells one side of a very sensitive issue from a very specific viewpoint.

 

[MdB]

Not to be insensitive here but how many people come back from a tour and pull pin with no news fanfare?

Dropping is not the main point of the article. It is not recognizing their dedication by awarding them the Bronze Star and shaming them for good job done. And yet, Americans thanked them a lot. Must be the best recognition.

Unfortunately, stories about staff officers and the enforcers of discipline don't sell very well, so that may be forlorn hope, at least as far as reading about it in Maclean's goes.

Yeah, I agree 100%. It's Ombudsman's.

I thought Army.ca members would enlighten me as they did so many times. But, I know this is dirty laundry probably best to do indoors.

 

[medicineman]

It's kind of strange how this op was touted as the first combat operation since Korea, but when the boys started racking up dead opponents, it was a little on the taboo side to talk about it.  Even if you read "Not a Good Day to Die" by Sean Naylor, there is very little mention of what these guys did - very strange given how significant a contribution to the Op they made.  Not to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but echoes of the Medak episode in '93 are kind of ringing here - that was one of the worst kept secrets in the Canadian Army, just nobody outside believed it until the government finally came out and said "Oops, forgot to mention something awhile back...".  I'm also wondering if Naylor may have been asked to keep casualties inflicted by Canadian snipers out of the book for the same PR reasons.

Or maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill - just I'm a firm believer in "give credit where credit is due".

MM

 

[paracowboy]

to paraphrase myself (again) on another website, in another thread dealing with this:

I've already addressed this in a previous post, but in short, it's almost entirely false. The article is over-inflated hype. That is from the men who were there, many of whom are still in 3VP.

There were/are entirely unrelated issues at hand, that have caused a great deal of friction between the members who have left and the Army in general, as well as other individual soldiers. You don't need to know those reasons, and I won't air other people's dirty linen in public.

Which is not entirely the journalist's fault, as he's going off info from the former member's father, who is getting his info from the member in question. That being said, it would have behooved the journalist to talk with some of the soldiers who served alongside the man. Other facts would have come to light.

I think the final word goes to the men who served there and then. When a group of them were gathered around, reading it, they broke out in gales of laughter, then tossed it in the garbage.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

"That being said, it would have behooved the journalist to talk with some of the soldiers who served alongside the man."

+1

 

[the 48th regulator]

So what is being said here, is that the article is plain bunk?

hmm interesting.

dileas

tess

 

[Centurian1985]

I dont know about the accuracy of the story, but I can verify that the US guys in Bosnia were impressed by their work.  I was hearing about the record-making shots from US co-workers the same month that they were being made (so much for opsec).  Guys who the previous day would not have cared who I was wanted to come up and tell me what a great job the guys did on that operation.

 

[Enzo]

You can always feel the "shift" when what was once myth, becomes legend.

 

[Screw]

Arron was treated like shit by the military. I dont know much about the article. I find macleans likes to "flesh out" their stories- but I met Arron(he's a  good friend of a good friend), his side is the one echoed in the article. But his world came very close to falling down around him, but he's a survivor. A good man by my account. A loose tongue- but what serviceman doesnt have one?

But im not sure what this article accomplishes now, our giant federal machine sometimes just rolls over people.....I cant see a way to make i so it never happens....eh.Ive spent 10mins doing worse then reading an article I suppose.

 

[Echo9]

I'd agree that the story was too one-sided to be particularly credible.  I say that with no particular insights into the issue beyond what was in the story.

Certainly, the members in question were highly effective in combat.  At the same time, the allegations made were serious.  If anyone remembers the drubbing that the Army took after Somalia, you can understand that commanders need to deal with such situations seriously.  Allowing an incident like that to go by with only a cursory investigation condones it, and encourages more (and worse) in the future. 

Now, am I impressed with the thunderbirds?  Usually not, and it sounds like this incident wasn't handled quickly enough.  There tends to be a continuous thread with MP (including NIS) investigations, and that's that they often forget what they're trying to achieve in the first place.  I've seen relatively minor incidents take 4 or 5 months to investigate, another 2 or 3 months at the AJAG before the charge is laid.  That counters the idea that military justice needs to be quick to be effective.

I'll say it again- an army without proper discipline is worse than a street gang.  Sometimes individuals get put through the wringer to save the organization.  Unfortunate, but it happens.

 

[291er_sigdev]

In this weeks Macleans Magazine, there is a story about how our snipers in Afganistan managed to hold the dubious record of the longest kill and the CF's reaction to this. The CF has become way too political these days.. We are supposed to be employed by polititians not act as them.

 

[Enzo]

Having yet to read the article, could you provide more detail. What exactly are you basing your comments on?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

This has already been posted.