CANFORGEN 97/08 LDA FAQs

[CountDC]

TV, I hear ya.  The MP Det in Ottawa is an LDA unit.  :

and rightly so - no where else they could spend soooo much time in the field and they certainly meet the definition of field unit  :clown:

“field unit” means a unit, whose primary role is combat manoeuvre and training for operations or combat support and combat service support to the combat manoeuvre units. Canadian Forces personnel in these units can expect, as part of their normal duties, to be exposed to austere environmental and work conditions for extensive periods of time on a regular basis. These units will be equipped with field equipment, vehicles and stores for this role

and I think that may be the basis for rather you will get LDA or PLD while on MATA/PATA.  You will not meet the criteria described above while on leave while the purpose of LDA PLD will still exist.

The purpose of the Post Living Differential (PLD) allowance is to stabilize the cost of living of CF personnel and their families living in Canada, with respect to differences in cost of living in various parts of the country.


more research to be done.  This site is great for keeping us old clerks on the go.  Everytime something like this comes up I start researching so I can keep on top of things.

edited: and maybe some sobering up.  Must have been drunk when I first posted although I really don't remember having a drink.

 

[armyvern]

“field unit” means a unit, whose primary role is combat manoeuvre and training for operations or combat support and combat service support to the combat manoeuvre units. Canadian Forces personnel in these units can expect, as part of their normal duties, to be exposed to austere environmental and work conditions for extensive periods of time on a regular basis. These units will be equipped with field equipment, vehicles and stores for this role

Notice, too, how they clevery worded this to screw the highly deserving pers (who actually spend time in the field constantly) at Combat Training Center (Home of the freakin' ARMY!!) out of entitlement to LDA?

 

[Pusser]

LDA is not factored in when calculating Top Up.  Nor are any environmental allowances.  Thes allowances are paid for undergoing the conditions associated with a certain type of employment.  If you are on LWOP, you are not being employed in that environment and so there is no entitlement.  PLD and similar allowances  that relate to where you are living are factored into Top Up as you are still living there (presumably).

In order to draw LDA is you are not in a field unit, you have to be in a "designated position."    In order to have a position "designated" it has to be expected that that position will spend at least 90 days per year undergoing those environmental conditions.  The reason the CTC folks don't get it is presumably because they aren't expected to spend 90 days per year in the field.  Incidentally, this is the same methodology used to designate positions for Sea Duty Allowance (SDA).

 

[armyvern]

In order to draw LDA is you are not in a field unit, you have to be in a "designated position."    In order to have a position "designated" it has to be expected that that position will spend at least 90 days per year undergoing those environmental conditions.  The reason the CTC folks don't get it is presumably because they aren't expected to spend 90 days per year in the field.  Incidentally, this is the same methodology used to designate positions for Sea Duty Allowance (SDA).

Have you ever been to CTC or employed in it? They spend the requisite number of "days" in the field.

CTC is precluded because they do not directly support "Operational" field training or "Operational" combat manoeuvres. "Operational" being the disqualifying word. What they do do, is go out to the field constantly to teach those "field skills and qualifications" to all those who will then proceed from CTC to those operational Units and operational training centres.

They only (and "only" is a very misdleading word in their case) support the TRAINING of ALL hard land force personnel in their trade and enviornmental qualifications prior to those pers going on to those "operational" locations and training facilities. You know 'lil things like patrolling (in the field!), advanced recce (in the field) etc etc. Platoon Comds Course (in the field!!) etc etc etc. 

 

[vonGarvin]

To illustrate Vern's argument using one very specific example from only one of the schools, consider Infantry Officer Development Period 1.1 "Dismounted Platoon Commander".  The course consists of several parts, commonly (and mistakenly) referred to as modules*.  These are:
[list type=decimal]
[*]Weapons
[*]Defensive Operations
[*]Offensive Operations
[*]Patrolling
[*]Full Spectrum Operations
[/list]
For each of the four final parts, candidates can expect to spend at least 10 days straight in the field.  That's 40 days right there.  The staff spend those days out there with them.  The instructors may come into garrison (to do administration, issue warnings, update stuff, etc), but the support staff (radio operators, enemy force, drivers, etc) are out there for the same time.  On a normal year, there are three "periods" in which IODP 1.1 is conducted (Late Winter/Early Spring, Summer and Autum).  For those keeping count, that's 120 days in the field, which is about 80 days more in the field when I was in 3 RCR, over a one-year period.  In fact, in the time prior to my posting (August 2007), I came from the school to 3 RCR, and had spent more time in the field that spring and summer than I did in my entire time in 3 RCR.  Also, those instructors from IODP 1.1 are likely to be tagged as instructors on other courses that hit the field, such as NCM DP 3B (Platoon 2IC course), Urban Operations' Instructor, Advanced Recce Patrolman, etc.

I'm certain that all CTC schools are in the same boat, if not worse off.


And that is but one specific course at but one of the schools.  THAT is why there is a sense of bitterness for troops who are posted to any of the CTC schools.


*Modules refer only to the breakdown of the parts of the course for reservists so that they can complete the training over a series of summers, with several limits placed on them, in terms of time, sequence, etc.  It is not uncommon, however, for the Cmdt to "grant" certain modules to regular force candidates who have to cease training for any reason.

 

[George Wallace]

I understand the bitterness here about the pers at CTC not being given LDA.  Having been in an Independent Tank Sqn and then at the School, I know that we spent a great deal more than 90 days in the field; and we had the equipment and support to do so.

As for the MPs in Ottawa getting LDA, I wonder WTF, as they do not deploy to the Field, they do not have the Vehs to deploy to the Field, nor do they have the support to deploy to the Field; unless someone thinks that a staff car with lights and a credit card are all that you need.  They only way that they could, is if they augmented the Reserve MPs in Ottawa.

 

[armyvern]

I understand the bitterness here about the pers at CTC not being given LDA.  Having been in an Independant Tanks Sqn and then at the School, I know that we spent a great deal more than 90 days in the field; and we had the equipment and support to do so.

As for the MPs in Ottawa getting LDA, I wonder WTF, as they do not deploy to the Field, they do not have the Vehs to deploy to the Field, nor do they have the support to deploy to the Field; unless someone thinks that a staff car with lights and a credit card are all that you need.  They only way that they could, is if they augmented the Reserve MPs in Ottawa.

Wow. I google MPs and serving in a field capacity ... and come across this:

http://www3.thestar.com/static/PDF/afghandocs/SCA%200407.pdf

 

[George Wallace]

Wow. I google MPs and serving in a field capacity ... and come across this:

http://www3.thestar.com/static/PDF/afghandocs/SCA%200407.pdf

Looks like someone's PowerPoint Presentation Speakers Notes.  If it isn't, then the MPs have a serious problem with communications and staff writting.  13 pages with less than 50 words on average per page.  Disjointed.  Totally incoherent.  Problematic on a whole in direction and presentation. 

What was the 13 pages trying to say?  The MP Trade, officer and NCO, is in a world of hurt?  That is what it looks like to me.

 

[armyvern]

Looks like someone's PowerPoint Presentation Speakers Notes.  If it isn't, then the MPs have a serious problem with communications and staff writting.  13 pages with less than 50 words on average per page.  Disjointed.  Totally incoherent.  Problematic on a whole in direction and presentation. 

What was the 13 pages trying to say?  The MP Trade, officer and NCO, is in a world of hurt?  That is what it looks like to me.

Disjointed for sure ~ I'm wondering if it's website addy indicates it has been uploaded and saved by the friendly neighbourhood TorStar daily publication ... and, if so, why would that be?

 

[PPCLI Guy]

What was the 13 pages trying to say?  The MP Trade, officer and NCO, is in a world of hurt?  That is what it looks like to me.

The brief was to Armed Forces Council.  Its intent was to seek a final decision on MP C2 - and it essentially recommended that MPs become their own Level 1, much like the Med branch has now become.

 

[dapaterson]

The brief was to Armed Forces Council.  Its intent was to seek a final decision on MP C2 - and it essentially recommended that MPs become their own Level 1, much like the Med branch has now become.

Med is a L2 under Chief of Military Personnel, not a L1.

DND's bloated C2 (at the L1/L2 levels) is in need of pruning, not enlarging - because every L1/L2 GO needs their coterie of flappers.  A 10% trim of NDHQ would free up Reg F PYs sufficient to reconstitute the mortar platoons and have a few hundred PYs left over for other worthy causes.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Thanks for the clarification.  Need to get back in the loop, and soon!

 

[PMedMoe]

As for the MPs in Ottawa getting LDA, I wonder WTF, as they do not deploy to the Field, they do not have the Vehs to deploy to the Field, nor do they have the support to deploy to the Field; unless someone thinks that a staff car with lights and a credit card are all that you need.  They only way that they could, is if they augmented the Reserve MPs in Ottawa.

IIRC, they receive it because they are a Det to 2 MP Pl in Pet.

 

[REDinstaller]

The MPs have also had a brain wave when it comes to which MP Pl covers which area. If you look at the original msg that designated LDA entitled units toward the end it reads 1 MP Pl Det Wainwright, Suffield, Shilo, etc etc. It has the same types of dets for LFCA, LFAA, and SQFT. So now they are all part of 3 large LDA earning Pl's. Makes you wonder who created that bit of sly accounting.

 

[ubergeek_123]

Probably not an MP!! Could not hold that one in...

Now back to my lane.

 

[Pusser]

Just so everyone is clear on the subject, I am not against or in favour of CTC staff receiving LDA.  I have no opinion on the subject, nor do I have any clue about what they do or how long they do it for.  All I was trying to say is that there are criteria that are used for determining entitlement and somebody (not me) at a high enough level in the chain of command has determined that they don't qualify.  In order to gain the entitlement, somebody in the Army has to do some staff work and then build and present the case.  You can't blame the system for not providing if no one tells the system it needs to do so.  A case in point is the Army's rain gear.  Part of the reason the Army wore crap for years is because no one submitted a UCR (or enough of them).  Folks just went out and bought American stuff instead.

 

[garb811]

IIRC, they receive it because they are a Det to 2 MP Pl in Pet.

To clarify, MP posted to CFSU(O) MP Coy do not receive LDA, this would probably refer to MP posted to the Reserve MP Pl in Ottawa as RFC.

 

[PMedMoe]

To clarify, MP posted to CFSU(O) MP Coy do not receive LDA, this would probably refer to MP posted to the Reserve MP Pl in Ottawa as RFC.

I thought there were no Reserve units getting LDA.  ???

I know Reg F guys posted to Res units who go in the field all the time and none of them get monthly LDA.

From Wikipedia (yeah, yeah, I know  : ):

2 Military Police Unit (2 MPU) is a unit of the Canadian Forces. It is essentially the Army Military Police of Ontario (this does not include Canadian Forces Support Unit (Ottawa)).

and

Unit Headquarters - Toronto, Ontario (Total Force)
2 Military Police Platoon - Petawawa, Ontario (Regular Force)
31 Military Police Platoon - London, Ontario (Reserve Force)
    Detachment Kingston, Ontario (Reserve Force)
32 Military Police Platoon - Toronto, Ontario (Reserve Force)
33 Military Police Platoon - Ottawa, Ontario (Reserve Force)
Military Police Platoon - Kingston, Ontario (Regular Force)
Military Police Platoon - Petawawa, Ontario (Regular Force)
Military Police Section - Meaford, Ontario (Regular Force)
Military Police Section - Toronto, Ontario (Regular Force)
Military Police Detachment - London, Ontario (Regular Force)
Military Police Detachment - Northern Ontario (Regular Force)

So maybe no MPs in Ottawa are getting LDA.

 

[ERIK2RCR]

To those with insight on the above mentioned, thanks a bunch. To the rest who turned it into a bitch session, I feel your pain. Time to lock this one up, we all know that regardless of who screwed up, the Army always wins.

 

[dapaterson]

2 MP Unit is a unit.  All the rest are dets of the unit.  That is, there is one MOO and thus oen CFOO for the whole organization.  Therefore, since 2 MP Unit is embodied in the Regular Force, all its dets are Regular Force - regardless of the composition of the individual dets.