CDN Hostage James Loney Rescued by SAS in Iraq

[niner domestic]

Couple of things come to mind over this event.

I am wondering why members of the press have not mentioned that information was suppressed at their reporting his homosexuality for fear of his captors executing him immediately.  In an age where the press demand their rights to print anything irrespective of the consequences to those who are subject of their "information sharing",they are silent on this.  In Loney's case his organization, family and partner asked the press to withold information with respect to his homosexuality so that his captors could not read about it. Where are/were the out cry from the press at how dare anyone ask to suppress information?

Which then makes me wonder about how true to ones beliefs and morals does one have to stray from or put aside when one faces great peril?  Where were his beliefs then? Denying his partner existence and a lifestyle/genetic hardwiring seems to me to be a much greater departure from Loney's belief system than the wearing pf a poppy could ever create.  I'll be a peace loving, gay, pacifist as long as my total beliefs are safe but I'll hide or deny parts of my identity when I am threatened - because I am a coward - period.   Not a coward because of his pacifism but because he allowed and participated in denying his homosexuality in order to save himself because that aspect of his belief system would have got him executed as quickly as his comrade James Fox was.  

Then I wonder at the cost of Loney's rescue and the recent discussions of private citizens expecting to gain access to the resources of the military when a "crisis" is facing them.  Whether it's picking up sticks in an ice storm, shoveling snow in a major city, sandbagging the banks of a river, firefighting in the mountains of BC, providing disaster assistance in the wake of a brutal tsunami, loading quasi Canadians into commandeered vessels to reach safety or launching a rescue of a civilian who was warned of dangers of heading into the area the military it seems is expected to pick up the price tag for the follies of the civilians in their failure to be prepared.  In Loney's case, I say send the organization and his family the bill for the rescue.  They can always fundraise to pay for it by selling white poppies.  

What I don't wonder about is the quiet resolve of members of the military to practice what they believe in without fail or denial.

 

[armyvern]

Niner D,

Your reasoning is a little flawed WRT the press and withholding of information.

Make no mistake, they have also done this on behalf of our fallen soldiers, with-holding their names from  public consumption until NOK and familes have been fully notified.

They also do this when minors may be at risk as in the case of child molestation. This is not a new thing, and most certainly is not a bad thing when someone's life is depending on it.

I may not like Mr Loney, or even agree with him, but he is alive. Do you honestly think he would be had the press released that info? One must be very careful when treading the line here, slamming the press for not releasing this would be akin to slamming them for not publicizing that "XXX soldier kidnapped by insurgents yesterday is a Jew." I imagine that would't go over very well either for the soldier.

When people's lives are in immediate danger, and can be prolonged by the withholding of certain facts, I have no problem with it and I don't think there is anything remotely ethiclly or morally wrong with it.

 

[vonGarvin]

He won't wear a poppy.  Big deal.  I couldn't honestly care less about this guy.

I do wish, however, that people would stop paying attention to him, inviting him for speeches, etc.  THOSE people who invite this *cough* *hack* "hero" to speak are the useless twits (delete the "i" and insert an "a" to get my true feeling)

 

[GO!!!]

I think the biggest travesty in this whole story is that the press continues to give this guy air time.

I mean really, what credentials does he have, as a misguided pacifist who was kidnapped as a result of his own stupidity? Is he a learned academic with coherent and defensible positions? Is he a soldier who participated in conflicts? Of course not.

His sole claim to fame is that he was kidnapped in the execution of a monumentally stupid task and imprisoned by a group of inept terrorists, only to be rescued by the same military machine he so fears and opposes. He did'nt do anything to earn his right to speak on the national media, it all happened to him, he is a leaf in the wind.

I fully agree with 9D on the release of information issue as well. The press reports all of the grisly details of savage rapes, murders and molestations with a blithe commitment to "journalistic integrity :" regardless of all of the harm it does to the victims and their families.

They also detail such helpful information as how to steal identities, break into buildings and evade drug tests in the name of "investigative journalism", but the sexual orientation of James Loney cannot be released because it may bring him harm? Give me a break. The truth, the whole truth....

 

[armyvern]

They also withhold critical evidence from publication when it assists LEOs with the capture of those murderers.

I'm talking what they do while the life is in immediate danger. What they do afterwards is a whole different topic. I'm sure you'd agree that we don't need the media broadcasting every detail they know one one of our operations in Afghanistan prior to the fact or even during it? That's why we have OPSEC. Sometimes, the safety of soldiers and citizens and their preservation of life does in fact outweigh "the right to know" when a life is in immediate danger.

And if that same media pre-broadcast one of our raids or patrols and it's location, you'd be up at the front of the line complaining about how they are risking soldiers lives by doing so.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Is he a learned academic with coherent and defensible positions?

Some would say thay's oxymoronic on a NUMBER of levels (my partner is an academic, and she can attest to this, too)....

 

[GO!!!]

And if that same media pre-broadcast one of our raids or patrols and it's location, you'd be up at the front of the line complaining about how they are risking soldiers lives by doing so.

The difference of course being, that I am not a wannabe public figure with an agenda, who relies upon media attention to keep my name in the news, eagerly reporting my ridiculous statements.

If the media can resist such a juicy tidbit as James Loney's penchant for men while in captivity, surely it can edit his disdain for remembering our veterans from our newspapers on the only day of the year dedicated to them, under the same prudence.

 

[TN2IC]

I am just thinking his ego is ruined so he places a wall up against the military as before, to hide himself. To hide what he truly feels. The poppy represents the fallen, not the war. Now to image he must be some sort of "hero" in the protesting world. Just cause he of what happened to him. Shame on him. I think his mother didn't love him enough. Drama queen sounds more like it for him. Waste of air and resources. Heck I am am getting in a knot over this clown. I am going for a jog now to blow off some steam.


TN2IC Out

 

[armyvern]

The difference of course being, that I am not a wannabe public figure with an agenda, who relies upon media attention to keep my name in the news, eagerly reporting my ridiculous statements.

If the media can resist such a juicy tidbit as James Loney's penchant for men while in captivity, surely it can edit his disdain for remembering our veterans from our newspapers on the only day of the year dedicated to them, under the same prudence.

Like I said, what the media does after the life is out of immediate danger is a totally different topic.

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

I do have to disagree with the notion that he is being hypocritical because he was not openly gay when he was being held by the terrorists. He went into the closet the second he steeped on Iraqi soil.  He knew that if he was discovered for who/what he was it would be the swift end of him.  I respect the level of courage it must take to go to a war zone, unarmed, to do humanitarian aid - especially knowing most of the people there would take you to the edge of town and stone you to death as their religious texts say to do. For him to be a hypocrite he needs to have encouraged others to do what he didn't.  I don't recall him ever telling anyone to come out of the closet when there is a gun to their head on principle.  He is following his principles.  I believe they are tendentiously formed and ultimately self defeating, but from what I've seen he is true to them. (I don't watch that closely though)

Yes there was a concerted effort to not let this information out and frankly if one of us who is gay is also captured we would likely do the same.  If one of us who was gay was captured and the media let it out, I honestly believe it would be a rather nasty (even for that lot) video posted on line.  The media has, on more occasions than I think can be counted, withheld information to ensure the safety of our military operations.  Yes the media also has exposed some really nasty things as well that have hindered the military.  How do they justify it? Simple, that is their job.  The media is a necessary component of a free society,  its job is to hold a mirror up to us so we ca see the truth,  not just what we want to see. When larger issues are at stake, like the use of torture or the total disregard for the lives of soldiers, a local celebrity who wont wear a poppy or the lack of equipment (or equipment that is the wrong colour) they will publish it. When it is about individual effects, their response is often measured (such as a weak spot on a tank, the sexual preference of a hostage or the name of a fallen soldier before the family has been informed). Without a free press we could easily fall into dictatorship or have worse things happen.

Now with all that said,  What is the big deal?  So he doesn't know the real meaning behind the poppy so he doesn't want to wear it.  He only makes himself look foolish. Which is hard for a guy that goes to a war zone without a gun. In that conflict they don't really recognise neutrals, so no one is safe there.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Would it be rude of me to mail this guy a rainbow coloured poppy?

My standing here right now is something of a paradox," he said.
"Our captivity was resolved by British Special Forces.

"I'm profoundly sad it was the war machine, really, that was able
to resolve the crisis in the end."

Better luck next time James.

 

[warspite]

While everyone is entitled to their opinion......
Pacifists are a bunch off fools. I've never seen a more unrealistic philosophy. They truly are a waste of precious oxygen.

 

[Fyuri]

He makes it sound as if soldiers ENJOY war. I'm sure most people would MUCH rather do without it, but it's a reality, and our soldiers are the ones who are brave and dedicated enough to do anything about it. Conflicts don't get resolved by waving white flags.

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

Conflicts don't get resolved by waving white flags.

Well, ... if both sides do ...

The trouble is that sadly there are still groups and individuals who think they can benefit from the use of force.

 

[Trinity]

The trouble is that sadly there are still groups and individuals who think they can benefit from the use of force.

Exactly... and because of that we have no choice to continue to maintain an armed forces in order to
protect ourselves and our interests. 

It's like the Simpson's episode when Lisa asks for no more violence or guns.... and the aliens
come down and take over because we were stupid enough to have no means of protection.
Until of course, we chased the aliens away with a board with a nail through it  ;D

But.. I'm preaching to the choir here.

 

[vonGarvin]

Exactly... and because of that we have no choice to continue to maintain an armed forces in order to
protect ourselves and our interests. 

It's like the Simpson's episode when Lisa asks for no more violence or guns.... and the aliens
come down and take over because we were stupid enough to have no means of protection.
Until of course, we chased the aliens away with a board with a nail through it  ;D

But.. I'm preaching to the choir here.

Trinity, trinity, trinity!  All little Lisa asked for was World Peace, not for no violence or guns.  I found it amusing that Moe deposited a weapon's vault worth of "toys" into the incinerator.  Then, Kodos and Kang laughing maniacally at the "peace symbol" across North America.  Then, of course, the board with a nail in it had Kodos and Kang laughing, because we'll just build a board with in a nail in it so big that we would destroy ourselves!


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[GO!!!]

The trouble is that sadly there are still groups and individuals who think they can benefit from the use of force.

MODS,

At what point does tripe like this qualify as trolling?

Zell,

You are on a website known as "Army.ca" which is populated nearly exclusively by soldiers, sailors and airmen who make the judicious use of force their business, because we believe it to be right, and the society we live in provides all of the substantiation required.

Force applied to the right people at the right time is the reason we have the freedoms we do today - including your right to sit smugly behind a computer high handedly declaring any use of force "sad".

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

  including your right to sit smugly behind a computer high handedly declaring any use of force "sad".

I think you interpreted it differently than the way I intended.  There is a big difference from using force to defend oneself and to protect others and using force for personal gain.  Until some unforeseen future where no one or country feels that the use of force/violence for personal gain is advantageous we will need to use force to defend ourselves and others. Trinity got the implication of my comment exactly the way I intended.

I do find people who use violence or the threat of violence for personal gain sad.  The bully on the play ground, the mugger or the nation that invades another for "breathing room". I don't feel the same way about the kid who finally stands up to the bully, the policeman or the army fighting of the aggressor nation. One takes from others, the other serves others. I guess in my previous posting I implied a meaning assuming that this was presumed by all.  I think I offended you,  if so I apologise.  I'll try to be clearer with my meanings.

 

[vonGarvin]

and the most evil German of all time, Kaiser Wilhelm.

"Sure, the Germans have made some mistakes in the past, but that's why pencils have erasers!"

Boy, talk about a thread hijack

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

And here's my favorite of all time...

"Hey, there's nothing in this book from 1939 to 1945!"
"Nothing happened, we we're all on vacation!"
"That's not true at all, you invaded Poland..."
"We were invited... Punch was served!"

;D

http://www.familyguyquotes.com/characters/brian-quotes.html

(Brian and Stewie are on a German tour bus.)
German Tour Guide: You vill find more on Germany's contributions to ze arts in ze pamphlets ve have provided.
Brian : Yeah, about your pamphlet... uh, I'm not seeing anything about German history between 1939 and 1945. There's just a big gap.
Tour guide: Everyone vas on vacation. On your left is Munich's first city hall, erected in 15...
Brian : Wait, what are you talking about? Germany invaded Poland in 1939 and...
Tour Guide: We were invited. Punch vas served. Check vit Poland.
Brian : You can't just ignore those years. Thomas Mann fled to America because of Nazism's stranglehold on Germany.
Tour guide: Nope, nope. He left to manage a Dairy Queen.
Brian : A Dairy Queen? That's preposterous.
Tour guide: I vill hear no more insinuations about the German people. Nothing bad happened. [size=12pt]Sie werden sich hinsetzen. Sie werden ruhig sein. Sie werden nicht beleidigen Deutschland[/size]. You will sit down. You will shut up. You will not insult Germany. (Throws his hand up in a Hitler salute.)
Brian : Uh, is that a beer hall?
Tour guide: (Snapping out of it) Oh yes, Munich is renowned for its historic beer halls.


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Now onto the guy who wont wear a poppy,  ... lame,  he just doesn't understand, but he has a different outlook than most of us .... which isn't a crime (yet  :rage  warstory: kidding)