CEOTP (Continuing Ed Officer Trg Plan) 2003-2018 [Merged]
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Has anybody seen what the intake numbers are for this program? I've applied for CEOTP-Internal. I'm a Reservist doing a CT/OT into the into the program internally. I've completed my Interview, been merit listed, Aircrew Medical, Seneca College entrance exam, with ASC coming up shortly. I'm definitely curious to know what the intake numbers will be into this plan. I suspect not very many the first year, making it all the more competitive.
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<RANT> a.k.a. don't read it if you don't want to hear it 
This kills me. I applied for internal CEOTP for Pilot last year, and got a call from D Mil C in January of 2011 telling me they changed their mind, and weren't taking any CEOTP Pilots after all. But, I had enough credit to apply for UTPNCM, so do I want to turn my application into one of those instead. I said sure, because I didn't want to wait another year. Ended up having to move to Kingston for RMC (long story, wrong place, but family issues have made this move difficult). Now, they aren't 'forcing' UTPNCM's to go to RMC anymore, and have opened CEOTP back up. On top of this, RMC is now reversing their decision to allow me to take a 3 year general science degree and forcing me to a 4 year which my transfer credits don't help me much. I came here with a 2 year college diploma (in Avionics), plus close to another full year of university worth of distance courses/OPME's; after my 1 year at RMC I need to do another 2.5 which will give me a total of 6.5 years of post-secondary and a bachelors degree, plus however long it takes me to get my wings afterwards. Now I hear this, and see that someone off the street can fulfill their officer degree requirements with this quasi-joke of a degree (come on, no other 'full-time' university will give that amount of university credit for military training). I shoulda waited another year :facepalm:
I keep being told by the un-named "powers at be" at RMC that a 3 year degree (even though it's an accredited degree blah blah) will restrict my promotion, ability for certain positions, etc; I think that this is bull$**t. If this is the case, then won't there be issues with this Seneca degree? I somehow think that my 7 years as an AVS tech in the RCAF will serve me better than some university courses, but maybe that's me being "naive" as I am not privy to the ways of a university graduate.
</RANT>
Hmm, I set out to write something useful here, but it turned into a vent session, and I forget what my original intention was. Oh well, in go the RANT tags, and I will post it anyway
This kills me. I applied for internal CEOTP for Pilot last year, and got a call from D Mil C in January of 2011 telling me they changed their mind, and weren't taking any CEOTP Pilots after all. But, I had enough credit to apply for UTPNCM, so do I want to turn my application into one of those instead. I said sure, because I didn't want to wait another year. Ended up having to move to Kingston for RMC (long story, wrong place, but family issues have made this move difficult). Now, they aren't 'forcing' UTPNCM's to go to RMC anymore, and have opened CEOTP back up. On top of this, RMC is now reversing their decision to allow me to take a 3 year general science degree and forcing me to a 4 year which my transfer credits don't help me much. I came here with a 2 year college diploma (in Avionics), plus close to another full year of university worth of distance courses/OPME's; after my 1 year at RMC I need to do another 2.5 which will give me a total of 6.5 years of post-secondary and a bachelors degree, plus however long it takes me to get my wings afterwards. Now I hear this, and see that someone off the street can fulfill their officer degree requirements with this quasi-joke of a degree (come on, no other 'full-time' university will give that amount of university credit for military training). I shoulda waited another year :facepalm:
I keep being told by the un-named "powers at be" at RMC that a 3 year degree (even though it's an accredited degree blah blah) will restrict my promotion, ability for certain positions, etc; I think that this is bull$**t. If this is the case, then won't there be issues with this Seneca degree? I somehow think that my 7 years as an AVS tech in the RCAF will serve me better than some university courses, but maybe that's me being "naive" as I am not privy to the ways of a university graduate.
</RANT>
Hmm, I set out to write something useful here, but it turned into a vent session, and I forget what my original intention was. Oh well, in go the RANT tags, and I will post it anyway
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It's a valid rant m_c
This project is already flawed before it even begins. The timeline is naive and leaves out the question of what happens to the newly winged pilot if he hasn't finished school. In order to be MOSID qualified, you need a degree, you can't get your wings without being MOSID qualified. The program alo fails to mention the fact that the pilot will have to return for a refresher course after the 4thyear is complete. Not very efficient. A
This project is already flawed before it even begins. The timeline is naive and leaves out the question of what happens to the newly winged pilot if he hasn't finished school. In order to be MOSID qualified, you need a degree, you can't get your wings without being MOSID qualified. The program alo fails to mention the fact that the pilot will have to return for a refresher course after the 4thyear is complete. Not very efficient. A
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middle_coast said:
This is my understanding. The program is in place for the CF to produce new operational pilots as quickly as possible, not to develop these folks into general officers. I've been told the same about my BMASc as a CEOTP AEC.
As for your frustration about going to RMC, they didn't force you to go, you accepted the offer. Make the best of it, and you'll enjoy yourself a lot more.
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Someone's been drinking the kool-aidagc said:
(jk...) Honestly though, I don't know your background, but when you get an offer at the end of May that is not what you are prepared for, and you have a house to sell and an employed spouse, there's not a *whole* lot of time for making decisions. Yes, I did accept the offer. Could I foresee issues with my wife finding work? No. Was I adequately prepared for the "RMC Experience" after close to 10 years in the Air Force? Not really. Putting all this together makes for a pretty ill-informed choice.As far as enjoying myself goes, it's just not going to happen for multiple reasons which I won't go into here. I will continue in a forward direction as my whining is generally restricted to groups of peers and the internet, and I'm gonna finish what I started. But I am entitled to be at least a little irritated when my commissioning program of choice was rescinded mid-selection because of backlog (apparently) and then to open up the program again the following year with a vengeance.
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middle_coast said:Someone's been drinking the kool-aid
That's why I planned all the different possibilities out in advance, so that when I got my offer in May for my second choice, I was prepared to make the right decision.
I agree that this sucks. But, like most folks on this site, you've been posted before, and will be posted again, so yeah you knew that was a possible issue.
So you didn't do your research? You know that part of the PSO interview where s/he said "So, do you have any questions for me?"...
Para 3 of your competition message said "THE LIST OF OPEN MOSIDS IN PARA 2 IS SUBJ TO CHANGE WITHOUT NOTICE DEPENDING ON CF SERVICE REQUIREMENTS"
It did change, because there were no training billets, and instead of saying sorry pal, try again next year, the CF pretty much bent over backwards for you. Sorry if this makes me a dick, but I don't have a whole lot of sympathy. Honestly, I believe you've got a better deal than the AEAD. Sure, I see the short term pain, but in the long run this will pay off for you, if you take it for what it is and be glad you got this career opportunity. Best of luck in your training and studies.
A
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middle_coast said:
You should have been. If you were not, you only have yourself to blame. You were in the military all this time, were you not ?
Iritated, sure. Get over it. Programs open and close depending on the needs of the CF, not the quantity of sand in your vagina you are willing to put up with.
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Judging by the tone of 90% of your posts, I'd say that you exemplify the negative RMC stereotypes quite well.middle_coast said:
Of course, with an earlier site name of "lobotomized_NCM," you got a head-start on how you are judged. :not-again:
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To be fair, the UTP selections last year were really pretty messed up and I could see the process leaving a bad taste. My situation was very similar but I got picked for civy u so have no complaints (I love it, actually - highly recommended) now that I'm actually in the program.
Neither of us applied for UTP but were both offered it. Great! But... I was in the Mega phase on a course in Halifax when I got the news, at which point I had to find a university to get into. Spotty communication and direction from D-Mil-C, no slack as far as acceptance deadlines, very vague instructions as to which degrees were acceptable (since cleared up, hopefully I'm grandfathered) and so on. I had no idea who I actually worked for until I stumbled into the local BPSO office one day (the ULO is co-located). I can imagine a cost move and family issues added on to that.
Back on topic, I haven't talked to anyone who thinks this Seneca thing is a good idea. A bizarre "degree" coupled with some awfully optimistic training timelines is not likely to work real well, but I'm just some OCdt. It seems to me as if they're creating de-facto US Army-like Warrant Officers, which would be perfectly fine except they have to function in the current officer development system and culture. We'll see how they end up being treated.
Neither of us applied for UTP but were both offered it. Great! But... I was in the Mega phase on a course in Halifax when I got the news, at which point I had to find a university to get into. Spotty communication and direction from D-Mil-C, no slack as far as acceptance deadlines, very vague instructions as to which degrees were acceptable (since cleared up, hopefully I'm grandfathered) and so on. I had no idea who I actually worked for until I stumbled into the local BPSO office one day (the ULO is co-located). I can imagine a cost move and family issues added on to that.
Back on topic, I haven't talked to anyone who thinks this Seneca thing is a good idea. A bizarre "degree" coupled with some awfully optimistic training timelines is not likely to work real well, but I'm just some OCdt. It seems to me as if they're creating de-facto US Army-like Warrant Officers, which would be perfectly fine except they have to function in the current officer development system and culture. We'll see how they end up being treated.
Interesting topic.
I took interest when certain users introduced this mickey mouse "beat around the bush" type degree. My thoughts:
After my "flight" college experience (not seneca), I was counselled to get a degree on my own accord and apply as a DEO for the sake of being competitive. I worked hard, went further into debt, and now I am doing what I can to make ends meet. The degree is complete, the paperwork is submitted, and I have received no information or follow up to date. Not complaining! Just stating my current position. Of course, the CF owes me absolutely nothing.
Perhaps the CF should look further into other flight programs, and see how successful their graduates are within the ranks.
I took interest when certain users introduced this mickey mouse "beat around the bush" type degree. My thoughts:
After my "flight" college experience (not seneca), I was counselled to get a degree on my own accord and apply as a DEO for the sake of being competitive. I worked hard, went further into debt, and now I am doing what I can to make ends meet. The degree is complete, the paperwork is submitted, and I have received no information or follow up to date. Not complaining! Just stating my current position. Of course, the CF owes me absolutely nothing.
Perhaps the CF should look further into other flight programs, and see how successful their graduates are within the ranks.
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The downfall (as Melbatoast and others have stated) is that these folks may be sidelined when it comes time for promotion out of flying positions (so...Maj?) As it stands, the CF hires Pilots as Officers, not as Pilots per se; it seems to me a great disservice that they'll get these people in, and then put up an artificial roadblock that they can't progress b/c of their education. I suppose they can get around it by offering IBDP (not entirely sure of acronym but that program that lets you do your first Bac while in the CF) though...
I agree with Melba that this strikes me as a weird version of the US Army WO Aviator scheme. Personally, I actually like that idea and it could let Pilots (or whatever trade, really) have the option of specializing in their field rather than progressing in Command if they don't want it.
I agree with Melba that this strikes me as a weird version of the US Army WO Aviator scheme. Personally, I actually like that idea and it could let Pilots (or whatever trade, really) have the option of specializing in their field rather than progressing in Command if they don't want it.
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Dimsum said:
I agree it would be an interesting approach but being as pilot is the largest officer occupation in the AF and almost all of them have come up through the traditional system, it would require huge amounts of force feeding and understanding in more or less equal measure. It would be pissing in a lot of people's cornflakes, in other words. I guess there are a lot of 10th IPC Captains who are pretty happy (I would be too, I think).
Skyhigh, there used to be a very broad program for pilots in colleges with aviation programmes. There were a lot of colleges involved, 3 or 4 in BC alone. I don't know how successful it was WRT career development, or even how many folks came up that way. I looked at it in the early-mid 90s (when I was in HS), I definitely remember they had Trackers in the pamphlet.
It's kinda weird because the UTPNCM acceptable subsidized degrees last year included "aviation," but there are very few actual four-year degree granting aviation programmes in Canada. University College of the Fraser Valley is one, and the four year deal there costs north of $100k. I'm really curious if they would have paid for it, versus $3k/yr at a regular university.
Another point - if all the entry standards are going to be the same for all plans, why not take the one that gives you a free degree as a bonus? It's not going to be any easier to get into Seneca than ROTP or equivalent, and the training schedule is pretty good these days. BMOQ summer 1, SLT summer 2, PFT summer 3 and Moose Jaw after grad. I know guys were waiting years for MJ but it sure doesn't look like that anymore. We've got a few guys going very soon, and 2 CAD actually tried to move some them to an earlier course. Another couple guys just finished school and have a scheduled 7 month wait - that's status-quo for any course in the CF, and the likelihood is that they will go on an earlier course anyway.
Different strokes for different folks, but be aware of how (what's a less emotive word than "difficult?") your life could be after getting wings given the expectations of an officer beyond just flying.
If they want more pilots would it not make sense simply to add more to RMC??? Additional residence space should not be a problem as renovations completed by September. If I were a candidate wanting to make a career as a military pilot and my options and career path this is what I would certainly want.
Do they really need individuals with this education?? I assume that if they proceed the numbers will be very small. Sounds like the flight training will be done at Portage and Moosjaw same as other pilots??? Then why add this as an option.
Giving credit it appears towards a degree at Seneca for training in Portage and Moosejaw and not for an RMC degree?? ROTP cadets not sent for PFT unless bi-lingual... same for Seneca I assume????
If "scheduled flight training will this affect or delay those in other streams???
Have to add additional bodies to monitor and supervise the students.
Assume that they would have to sign a I believe 13 year contract as per the other....... And that after the first year that they would have to re-pay the government for all costs if they do not complete or leave???
It seems that they already have a way of giving and education to future pilots........... this makes no sense to me but I may be missing something??????
Starting in September .... Not sure who came up with this and hope it does not blow up in their face.
Do they really need individuals with this education?? I assume that if they proceed the numbers will be very small. Sounds like the flight training will be done at Portage and Moosjaw same as other pilots??? Then why add this as an option.
Giving credit it appears towards a degree at Seneca for training in Portage and Moosejaw and not for an RMC degree?? ROTP cadets not sent for PFT unless bi-lingual... same for Seneca I assume????
If "scheduled flight training will this affect or delay those in other streams???
Have to add additional bodies to monitor and supervise the students.
Assume that they would have to sign a I believe 13 year contract as per the other....... And that after the first year that they would have to re-pay the government for all costs if they do not complete or leave???
It seems that they already have a way of giving and education to future pilots........... this makes no sense to me but I may be missing something??????
Starting in September .... Not sure who came up with this and hope it does not blow up in their face.
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dcs said:
Certainly a valid opinion. But everybody has different opinions, and different goals in mind. I personally think its about time that somebody is trying a new approach to the old RMC 7 years to wings type of training plan. Its slow, innefficient, and wasteful in my opinion. The CF needs operational pilots, and I think a program like this could potentially make that happen more efficiently. I would suspect a lot of people are going to disagree with this, simply because they had to go through a full degree at RMC or Civvy University so why shouldn't everyone else?
But in MY OWN PERSONAL situation, this CEOTP program would be excellent. As a currently serving NCM, I *should* only have to do the Officer portion of BMOQ, I've already got a bunch of university credits, and already am a commercial helicopter pilot/fixed wing pilot. So I certainly have no interest in going to RMC for four years, and stretching out the training over 4 summers, before I even start any flying courses. I am fully aware of the potential for this program (should I get accepted) to limit my career development and/or advancement WRT rank. But I'm completely okay with that, as I'm really only interested in flying for the CF for the rest of my career. I really have no burning desire to work my way up the chain of command into administratively heavy positions. A IPL 10 Captain? I would be okay with that. Not that I'm unmotivated or anything, I'm actually extremely motivated and hard working. Also, not that money is my prime motivator by any means, but as an adult with a mortgage, vehicle payment and a huge student loan for my Helicopter license, it's certainly a consideration. With this program AFAIK, one would be commissioned as a 2nd LT immediately after graduation from BMOQ. As opposed to ROTP or RMC where you remain an Ocdt for the duration of your school. The pay difference between the two is quite a bit, considering I would be giving up a $100 k/year civvy job to persue my dreams. So, with all these things in mind, this program would seem to make sense FOR ME. I think its a hell of an idea, and am hoping to be one of the first to test it out!
Rob
EDIT:
I just want to point out before I get jumped on, that I'm certainly aware that as an officer in the CF, flying is a secondary duty, and am prepared to accept that there will be a large amount of administrative duties associated with your daily job. I'm fully aware of this reality and certainly by no means expect to be flying every single day. Also, I would like to point out that I don't think that my previous flying experience entitles me to anything, or even helps me at all beyond the application stage, but was told by my interviewing officer who merit listed me that it makes me very competitive. (But that's an entirely different topic so I digress. . . )
Rob,
Two years ago I would have to wholeheartedly agree with you. This of course is coming from a person who just steamrolled a degree in two years to try and make this possible. This is where I disagree with you, and I endorse a system which is the same for all applicants. After graduating from one of Ontario's few remaining subsidized flight colleges , it would have been exceptionally convenient to sign the line and commit to a degree of my choice in said time frame and bypass the aptitude testing, bypass the sims, by pass everything that doesn't exactly have "aviation" attached to it practically. Though of course, this is not how it works and applicant convenience is not exactly an objective of the CF. I was told explicitly that if I did not have a degree, it just was never going to happen . In the years preceding my graduation (graduates from 2 - 20 years ago), dozens of students have been snatched up and have had / are currently having / are on track to having great careers in a mix of all three aircraft categories ABSENT any degree. With such a heavy success rate from this one college in particular, does it make logical sense to cancel the college entry program and toss in excess amounts of testing? Perhaps. Many of these pilots have also shared their enormous detest for the almighty sacrosanct prestige of having a degree. This ... does not change anything.
I learned that I could be right for all the right reasons, have real world flying experience doing precision aerial surveying, attain a degree out of my own pocket (still a good thing anyway right?), meet a lot of great people including current serving officers who happened to be profs at this university, have a great previous record with the CF prior to releasing years ago for post secondary studies... it really doesn't matter. Like I said, I agree that it would be great to just enter the CF as an airman or airwoman and specialize in ones trade absent all the additional crap. Though unfortunately, I think most CF pilots will confess that their duties are 10 fold and seldom confined to the cockpit.
I learned the system is not perfect. I learned that they may very well have a system that informally produces the desired results but instead turn away to something a bit more ass backwards yet streamlined. I learned that what makes sense to me means absolutely nothing to the recruiting system. I learned that previous flying experience means absolutely nothing at the beginning (pre-interview) stage. I ultimately learned that the CF wants more than just a pilot. This in the long run made it more attractive to me. Even if it doesn't happen, I still achieved a degree on my own accord and pursued it to expand my horizons a bit more. After all, this is isn't suppose to be easy right?
So when I hear about this new entry program via Seneca, I am a little bit frustrated. Apparently it doesn't take into account a variety of legitimate concerns from people within and outside the system. Why not structure a program where the applicant goes to a flight college for (2) years followed by a university of their choice which will credit (1) year of a (3) year or(4) year program, allowing them to finish in a (4-5) year time frame with exceptional flight training?
If you can't beat them ..... figure out a way to join them.
I wish you the best of luck.
Two years ago I would have to wholeheartedly agree with you. This of course is coming from a person who just steamrolled a degree in two years to try and make this possible. This is where I disagree with you, and I endorse a system which is the same for all applicants. After graduating from one of Ontario's few remaining subsidized flight colleges , it would have been exceptionally convenient to sign the line and commit to a degree of my choice in said time frame and bypass the aptitude testing, bypass the sims, by pass everything that doesn't exactly have "aviation" attached to it practically. Though of course, this is not how it works and applicant convenience is not exactly an objective of the CF. I was told explicitly that if I did not have a degree, it just was never going to happen . In the years preceding my graduation (graduates from 2 - 20 years ago), dozens of students have been snatched up and have had / are currently having / are on track to having great careers in a mix of all three aircraft categories ABSENT any degree. With such a heavy success rate from this one college in particular, does it make logical sense to cancel the college entry program and toss in excess amounts of testing? Perhaps. Many of these pilots have also shared their enormous detest for the almighty sacrosanct prestige of having a degree. This ... does not change anything.
I learned that I could be right for all the right reasons, have real world flying experience doing precision aerial surveying, attain a degree out of my own pocket (still a good thing anyway right?), meet a lot of great people including current serving officers who happened to be profs at this university, have a great previous record with the CF prior to releasing years ago for post secondary studies... it really doesn't matter. Like I said, I agree that it would be great to just enter the CF as an airman or airwoman and specialize in ones trade absent all the additional crap. Though unfortunately, I think most CF pilots will confess that their duties are 10 fold and seldom confined to the cockpit.
I learned the system is not perfect. I learned that they may very well have a system that informally produces the desired results but instead turn away to something a bit more ass backwards yet streamlined. I learned that what makes sense to me means absolutely nothing to the recruiting system. I learned that previous flying experience means absolutely nothing at the beginning (pre-interview) stage. I ultimately learned that the CF wants more than just a pilot. This in the long run made it more attractive to me. Even if it doesn't happen, I still achieved a degree on my own accord and pursued it to expand my horizons a bit more. After all, this is isn't suppose to be easy right?
So when I hear about this new entry program via Seneca, I am a little bit frustrated. Apparently it doesn't take into account a variety of legitimate concerns from people within and outside the system. Why not structure a program where the applicant goes to a flight college for (2) years followed by a university of their choice which will credit (1) year of a (3) year or(4) year program, allowing them to finish in a (4-5) year time frame with exceptional flight training?
If you can't beat them ..... figure out a way to join them.
I wish you the best of luck.
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RobOfstie said:
As a currently serving NCM you keep your current pay (including spec pay if applicable) with yearly incentives, until such time as officer pay catches up. If you have done PLQ, you skip BMOQ entirely. If you have not, you only join for the later portion. UTPNCM no longer sends students to RMC, so you can transfer credits to your heart's content at the civilian university of your choice.
I do agree that Officer Cadet pay is very poor and makes ROTP an unrealistic choice for more established folks without a degree. UTP is a completely different story.
I'd be really interested to know where you're going to make $100k a year right out of commercial flight school, as would the hundreds of other grads currently pulling $15 per block-hour.
Flying isn't a secondary duty, but you'll have a shitload of "secondary" duties that are seen as necessary to professional development (let alone normal squadron operation), and you'll constantly hear about getting a language profile if you want to go any farther, and getting an actual degree so you're more competitive among your peers, and so on and so forth.
Am I going to be responsible for all the staff jobs now? Are they going to set a ceiling for the Seneca-style guys like in the US, an "up or out" policy?
Interesting discussion, anyway.
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Melbatoast said:
Melbatoast :
I have been an Field/Plant Operator for an Oil and Gas company for the last 7-8 years. Went and got a commercial helicopter license, then started flying myself into remote oil/gas wells and compressors that aren't accessible by vehicles 9 months out of the year in Northern AB. Dual trade, dual pay. Oil company pays the Operator very well, the flight pay (surprise surprise) is piss poor. Not going back flying this summer though, the work is too unstable. Flying work until the winter, and then its a gamble if your going to have ground operating work for the winter in a truck or a gas plant. So I'm back Gas plant operating as an employee where the work is always there no matter what.
99 % of all low-time flying jobs pay next to nothing. This one happens to be the 1 % exception, but only because I am Dual trained in a technical trade that pays well.
Regards,
Rob
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Gotcha, makes sense.
One of my guys just accepted an offer for CEOTP and will be commissioned as a 2Lt. Prior to receiving his CEOTP offer he had a promotion msg to Sgt. We have now been told that his promotion to Sgt is cancelled because he accepted CEOTP. He will go straight from MCpl to 2Lt and get pay based on MCpl even though he was selected and by all rights should be a Sgt. Also, if the Officer training does not work out and he has to revert back to NCM, he will go back to MCpl instead of the Sgt rank he earned.
I don't think this is a fair decision. Does anyone have any experience/regs that can help my guy keep his Sgt promo prior to commissioning?
I don't think this is a fair decision. Does anyone have any experience/regs that can help my guy keep his Sgt promo prior to commissioning?
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