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CF Transformation and Upcoming Election

Kev T

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I know that nothing is ever set in stone or guaranteed but with the upcoming election will/can this affect the positive changes being made in the CF negatively? I mean there are a lot of improvements being made such as aircraft and ship purchases, the improvement of the light battalions, the standing up of the JATF, SOG, CANSOFCOM, SCTF, ......etc. Are these changes going ahead regardless of government changes because of our requirements in the military and the current global situation especially with terrorism, or can all these great changes with CF Transformation that we've been waiting years for get snuffed out like that because of some vote? Thanks.
 
Kev T said:
... can all these great changes with CF Transformation that we've been waiting years for get snuffed out like that because of some vote?
Yes.
 
It has happened before and will happen again and again the voter has a short memory.
 
what i dont understand is that, why is canada so anti-military, why is there no money invested into the military? is it hated or is it becasue the dumb politiciens feel that there is no need? I really think that if they dont do something about upgrading , sooner or later it will bite us in the butt and hard.
 
It just seemed to me from what I've read that these changes/improvements with regards to CF Transformation were going ahead regardless and they were part of the CDS's goal and separate from the government. But I guess even the CDS is not capable without political support. The Liberals have been suprisingly supportive so far and they are traditionally not know for that but would another government in power be even more supportive like the Conservatives for example.
 
I have to confess that I'm also worried. As a voter, I'm not really sure that this election is truly necessary as opposed to letting the Govt get on with running things. Prehaps the public (if they actually turn out to vote...) may vent their frustration on those who are expecting to profit from this. Just a thought: I am not traditionally a Liberal voter, but I am willing to let this Govt get on with it.

As a soldier I am even more worried. It is difficult to imagine that, short of this Govt surviving intact (which may happen-see above), we will end up doing much better or even as well as a military. These are unprecedented days: the "stars" have been aligned better than I have seen them in 31 years. The worst case, of course, is that by some fluke the NDP return with even more seats, and no longer feel compelled to hold to the middle of the road (even as little as they have been...). We know quite well where that could lead.

Watch and shoot....or vote....or something.

Cheers
 
rdt2449 said:
what i dont understand is that, why is canada so anti-military, why is there no money invested into the military?

I don't believe Canadians as a whole are anti-military. But rather they have never needed to hide in their basements from the ravages of war, waiting for their military to liberate them. If you look at it like owning insurance on your car, yeah its crappy to have to pay money every month into something you most likely wont use but when that day comes that you need it, its damn nice to have.

Unfortunately, Canadians seem to be more concerned with whats in their lap that particular day and not whats coming up in the future.
 
There's an interesting discussion on a similar topic in this thread:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/36467.0.html
 
Canada is not anti-military.

The problem is the average canadian really cares about public health care, funding for specilized groups and social programs.  Parties that want votes are going to invest in these programs to stay in power, thus the CF becomes a secondary priority.

How many Canadians have we heard saying that they want the CF to get more money, but they don't want other programs to get less, and they aren't willing to pay more taxes. . .
 
J. Gayson said:
Canada is not anti-military.

The problem is the average canadian really cares about public health care, funding for specilized groups and social programs.  Parties that want votes are going to invest in these programs to stay in power, thus the CF becomes a secondary priority.

How many Canadians have we heard saying that they want the CF to get more money, but they don't want other programs to get less, and they aren't willing to pay more taxes. . .
I am not sure that I would agree with that.  I would say it is a form of BLACKMAIL used by the government on the voting Public.  They want to fill their own agenda, and to do so they manipulate the Public with these silly "If you want better Health Care, we will have to cut__________" promises.  The Public has fallen for it every time.  It isn't only the Military that gets the shaft this way.  Other Departments have too.  And in the end, Health Care doesn't improve.  In fact, sometimes we get less Health Care. 

Now, if Jean Cretan had given all us guys defending the country $175,000 per annum Pensions, like he gave himself, then I imagine we would be very happy.
 
I don't see how any government elected into power can not carry forward with some sort of increased fundingfor the Military.  I think the Canadian people have finally come to realize that our Canadian Forces have gone through too many years of neglect and underfunding.

I would suspect that this will actually be a big election platform for the 3 major parties in which to sway voters.

cheers

PV
 
J. Gayson said:
Canada is not anti-military.

The problem is the average canadian really cares about public health care, funding for specilized groups and social programs.   Parties that want votes are going to invest in these programs to stay in power, thus the CF becomes a secondary priority.

How many Canadians have we heard saying that they want the CF to get more money, but they don't want other programs to get less, and they aren't willing to pay more taxes. . .

I think you need to understand that the idea that universal, public free, health care and social programmes, in general, ought to be central to the national fabric has its origins in the famous 1960 Kingston Conference in which Tom Kent, amongst others, developed the policy directions which would guide the Liberal Party of Canada for 40+ years.

The key problem was national unity which the Liberals, in 1960, saw as having two main components:

1. Québec nationalism; and

2. Territorialism - which the Liberals saw as inimical to the strong, centralized federal state which the Fathers of Confederation clearly wanted and which most Liberals saw as being the only siren song which would tempt Québec away from the national 'centre'.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Fathers did want a strong, centralized, federal state.  Québec's place was, in 1867, an issue and the dreadful experiences of the US Civil War were fresh in everyone's minds.  The problem was (still is) that the Constitution they wrote, despite their intentions, decentralized those areas of responsibility which matter most to most people - the areas of exclusive federal jurisdiction, including the 'new' areas reserved for the feds, are not matters which concern Canadians, day-by-day.  Over the course of two world wars the Liberals learned that the federal government can intrude into areas of political jurisdiction with no appreciable political risk - only the tiniest possible minority of Canadians knows or cares about the Constitution; their votes are negligible.

The Kingston Conference saw federal social programmes, especially health care, as the best possible tool to:

"¢ Strengthen national unity and, simultaneously, reduce the territorialist pull which weakened the national 'centre'; and

"¢ Reinforce the Liberal Party's already strong position as the moderate, progressive 'Party of the Centre'.

The aim became:

1. Intrude, further and further into areas on (constitutionally mandated) provincial responsibility;

2. Blur the line (regarding desirable social programmes) between the national government and the Liberal Party; and

3. Make social programmes central to Canadians' expectations from the nation-state.

The last item was paramount and it was easy.  In the 1960s there were (my guesstimate) 4,000,000+ voters who had come of age before or during the Great Depression.  The Depression (always capitalized) was, even more than World War II, what defined them and their political agenda.  (In the '62 and '63 general elections about 7,800,000 Canadians voted - a few were born between and 1929 (the start of the Depression) 1942 (the voting age was 21 back then) but the 'baby boomers' were not, yet a factor.)  The Depression generation embraced social programmes as only those who had experienced real hardship - which I suggest cannot even be imagined by 90% of native born Canadians born after 1936 - can.  Their children - the boomers - took social programmes and all they implied about a just society, etc, to heart.

Moving social programmes, especially free health care, up to a primary position in our national self-image meant that other, less tangible things, including thoughts about foreign and defence policy, moved down, and down, and down.

By 1969, when Pierre Trudeau (a bloody fool of the first order) and his foreign policy guru Ivan Head repudiated Louis St Laurent's policy of an active, responsible, leading middle power Canada - in an act of policy vandalism which still animates the Liberal party of Canada, Canadians were ready and willing to embrace something akin to pacifism.  The Viet Nam war didn't make it hard - US 'culture' (including infotainment via the all-powerful TV news] had, already, completely swamped English Canada, and the American anti-war movement spread world-wide, tarring all things military with its brush.

Turning the ship around and regaining St Laurent's correct policy - the only independent Canadian foreign policy we ever had - will require many years and much money and, I believe, leadership other than that which can be provided by the Liberal Party of Canada until the (now) thirty-somethings take power.

 
Some further bad indicators:

1. Lots of news coverage about the CF is distinctly slanted against "us" and especially Gen Hillier. The cover of a recent "Saturday Night" magazine had a Gen Hillier on the cover over the title "There will be Blood" and a subtitle saying Gen Hillier wants to transform the CF into a more American force. This is certainly an effort by the editorial staff to push the anti-war and anti American buttons very hard. There is much other commentary with the old zero sum arguments of CF transformation being paid for by (name your favorite program).

2. The Federal Cabinet shelved the "fast tracking" proposal for purchasing new aircraft etc. Certainly given the rust-out problems and the relentless reporting of equipment problems, this could have been a "win win" scenario for us and the Libranos (see, Mr Dithers can make a decision, we do care about our servicemembers, etc.)

3. Although everyone is positioning themselves for a fall/winter election, I have yet to hear Defence come up as an issue at all (maybe I missed it....)

Face it troops, a long time ago, Canada made a strategic decision to let the United States take on the task of defending Canada. There are a lot of direct and indirect consequences to dong this, but for the Liberals, who's entire focus is inwardly directed (how to gain and maintain power), the loss of international influence, diplomatic clout or anything else is inconsequential to the main goal. Given the increasing importance of Globalization, this attitude will eventually bounce back and bite them really hard, but since the rot has been gradual so far, the electorate hasn't paid too much attention. This is similar to standing next to a tree which is rotting from the centre; it looks strong, but you will discover your mistake when the wind rises.....
 
I just find it a shame because im going to apply to the Forces in january so i can do my basic in the summer at st-jean, and i want to be in the infantry for the rest of my life or as long as possible. I hope canada does do something soon about upgrading because i dont want to have to use weapons or whatever thats older than i am and is concidered inferior or almost useless compared to other nations equipment.
 
rdt2449:  It might comfort you to know that - at the soldier level - our equipment (despite some quibbles) is normally of the first order.  We have equipment issued to individuals that other armies - some from Western Europe - only dream of and our infantry (on deployment anyway) resembles some nations' special forces.  We can do that because such equipment doesn't require a full "capital program" that demands political intervention, unlike big ticket items aircraft, vehicles, etc.. (As an aside to the initiated, I really don't want to start a discussion on the merits of the Tac vest or the C7A2 here).

The problems arise when you're trying to plan a deployment and are faced with a vehicle "cap" because we don't have adequate airlift or are trying to restructure the CF around a new, bolder, operational concept and cannot do it without extensive political support.  You generally don't have to deal with these issues as a new guy.
 
Awsome Thanks...
anyways im not going to vote anyways because none of the parties have convinced me, maybe im just not gullable enough.
 
Read the party platforms carefully (go to their web sites), consider how well the parties have lived up to their promises/proposals (i.e. 90 odd "Red Book promises, many repeated every election since 1993.....hint) and base your decision on the information available.

Saying you won't vote is a cop out, and certainly what some parties hope for. If you plan to be a member of the CF, you are making a statement that you are or intend to be a person of action. When you are out in the Field or on Operation, you may well be faced with a series of unpalatable choices and insufficient information, but you better not sit down and  say "you don't know what to do" or "you don't care", or "I'm not convinced" (not in MY section anyway!).

rtd2249, I might be dissapointed if you choose to vote "Green" or something like that, but at least you made a choice and are prepared to live with the consequences, and I will respect that. I won't respect a cop out, though.

 
They say the definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

More and more people are refusing to vote.  And the Liberals get elected.

Recent polls suggest that most Canadians believe that Martin knew about the kickback scams, or should have known, and that Liberal corruption is rampant.  They also believe that there IS a culture of entitlement in the Liberal government.  So, they have the perfect solution....when the election comes, they'll all vote Liberal, just to teach them a lesson.

When your kid steals money from you for the fifth time, do you punish him severely, or shrug your shoulders and say "whaddaya gonna do?".  Do you then put him in charge of your debit card too?  What kind of message are you sending?

A common complaint is that there isn't any choice in political parties....I submit that the problem is that there IS a choice....except that Canadians don't want to make choices...they want a nice soft Liberal government to take care of them and make them feel warm and fuzzy.  They don't want to research party platforms or ideologies, they want to sit at home, believe what the Liberal-owned media tells them, and then vote on the basis of their poorly-informed consciences.

At least in Quebec, most of the Parti Quebecois or Bloc Quebecois are disaffected Liberals...there is the illusion of choice.  Sure, you get the same socialist crap from all parties invovled, but you can vote Liberal, or vote liberal....thus giving the illusion of choice.  Canadians' biggest problem right now is that there isn't another Liberal party to vote for....the Progressive Conservatives, people I refer to as Liberals with blue ties, were another Liberal party.  Voting for them allowed the public to believe in the polite fiction that there was a difference between them and the Liberals, without having to actually admit that there was none.

So, you can get informed, vote your INFORMED conscience, or you can sit on your hands, do nothing, spend what little money you don't have taxed away from you to pay for government perks on a little lube to make the process easier.  Just don't forget that I'm getting screwed too, in part, thanks to you.

Democracy is a participatory form of government.  What have YOU done to support it, or support the things you believe in?
 
a_majoor said:
rtd2249, I might be dissapointed if you choose to vote "Green" or something like that, but at least you made a choice and are prepared to live with the consequences, and I will respect that. I won't respect a cop out, though.

What is wrong with voting Green?  They had my vote last election.

I 100% support increasing gas taxes, subsidizing public transport etc.


 
Teddy Ruxpin brought out an interesting point in another thread:

CF Transformation is proceeded extremely rapidly - to the point where some of us are becoming somewhat uncomfortable at the lack of an articulate strategic "plan" and the forced pace of the changes.  Equipment purchases in the present environment cannot be conducted without fully describing how they fit into the plan.  I think I have a decent idea, but no more, and I'm fairly close to the issues at hand.  I can only imagine what the anti-military establishment thinks when presented with a $12 billion dollar package that detractors claim is generated "off the cuff" by Generals to support a mission that, to their mind, is merely fighting a war on behalf of the Americans...

This is very true.  Beyond the announced stand up of the JATF very little has been articulated, even within the CF, on what the desired end state of Transformation means to us and, more importantly, the taxpayer.  So far, another layer of Command has been created and, so far, this layer has been silent.

That being said, until the other JTFs are stood up, CANCOM won't likely have a firm grip on what it has for assets so it is prudent that they don't engage in public speculation.

Teddy Ruxpin said:
The problems arise when you're trying to plan a deployment and are faced with a vehicle "cap" because we don't have adequate airlift or are trying to restructure the CF around a new, bolder, operational concept and cannot do it without extensive political support.   You generally don't have to deal with these issues as a new guy.

One only needs to take a few steps back from the coal face to see the institutional and cultural obstructions that CF Transformation has to overcome.  I fear that an election may delay Transformation and give the careerist obstructionists time to re-org.

 
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