CF Transformation and Upcoming Election

[rdt2449]

I know I will vote but ill do some research first like you said, gave me a good idea to do. when you mean voting green though what do you mean?

 

[AoD71]

what i dont understand is that, why is canada so anti-military, why is there no money invested into the military? is it hated or is it becasue the dumb politiciens feel that there is no need? I really think that if they dont do something about upgrading , sooner or later it will bite us in the butt and hard.

Actually I think that it has already "bitten us in the butt". Lack of financial support has already taken its toll on the Canadian Forces. Although things are starting to go in the right direction, there are still problems. Everyone knows about the old equipment, vehicles, and the small number of members in the CFs. People ask me what I am doing now that I graduated from highschool, and I tell them I am joining the CFs. Sometimes I get the stupid reaction that they think I am kidding, as if the Canadian military is a joke. A lot of people don't respect and appreciate what is being done for them. They think that the Canadian military is some kind of social club. I think these financial problems stem from the fact that some Canadians have false illusions of safety, that organizations such as Al Qaeda don't pose a threat to us. They think that the US is here to take the heat for us, and protect us in the possible case that (god forbid) something horrible happen on Canadian soil. Its high-time they wake up and smell the sh!t that polutes this world, and start taking these threats seriously.

 

[a_majoor]

I know I will vote but ill do some research first like you said, gave me a good idea to do. when you mean voting green though what do you mean?

The Green Party of Canada. Another thing for you to Google.

Nov 28 is coming quickly troops so we don't have much time to hit the web sites and buttonhole the people who want our votes. Let's go!

 

[George Wallace]

The Green Party of Canada. Another thing for you to Google.

Nov 28 is coming quickly troops so we don't have much time to hit the web sites and buttonhole the people who want our votes. Let's go!

Almost looked like you may be proporting the creation of the CADPAT Party - a Non-military Pro-military Non-Gender Specific Egalitarian Party.





I subscribe to the publications from the Dept of Redundant Redundancies.

 

[redleafjumper]

Call me cynical, but it is interesting that the Liberals would enact policies designed to take away, or really compete with votes from the party most likely to defeat them in the upcoming election.  I can imagine the planning session dialogue: 

M - "How can we take votes away from the Conservatives?" 
Mc- "Well, we could promise tax cuts, and increase military spending..."
M - "Sure that's a good start, but how do we show that we are different from the conservatives? After al, we don't want to alienate our traditional supporters."
Mc - "I know, we could go on about banning handguns - it's perfect - if we ban them we can save money on the registry and the Toronto soccer moms will see we care about public safety!"
M - "Hey that's great, let's get some back-bencher to raise it so we have plausible denial in case the issue doesn't fly!"
Mc - "That should work...  Just don't mention advertising contracts!"
M - "So we aren't really serious about tax cuts and the military stuff are we?"
Mc - "Heck no, we'll give them something flashy like new DART vehicles or some such thing and then quietly kill any procurement plans after we win."

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. 

 

[Kev T]

I like to think with the current global situation that this country has no choice but to improve it's military. As much as some people like to deny it we are a country at war and have been for the past couple of years. The way it's going the war on terrorism doesn't look like it is going to end any time soon. From some people I've talked to it seems as though Canadians are finally starting to wake up and smell the roses. I think they are starting to realize that unless we do something to revamp the military things won't get better or safer for our troops who are entering more and more dangerous operations e.g. this upcoming combat mission in Khandahar involving 2000 of our nation's finest. People are kind of tired of the fact. Our soldiers are going to keep entering more and more dangerous situations out there to minimize the threat of terrorism not just in Canada but everywhere and right now we don't have a choice but to improve. 

 

[R0B]

I know a lot of people who hate the Canadian Forces, and think Canada should disband its military so that we can live in some sort of socialist utopia with free healthcare and affordable housing for the inept.

The Canadian Forces will continue to be neglected by the government because it's so far removed from the public eye. The only news you ever hear is bad news, save for the annual rememberance day token "thank you, veterans" news report. Why would the government want to invest in a military force that will seldom see action if it can bribe it's voters with welfare checks and steal the rest?

Terrorists aren't going to attack Canada, but if they did, I'd bet a lot of people would demand that the Canadian Forces be withdrawn from Afghanistan to prevent further attacks.

 

[1feral1]

As for Cdns and the military and how they feel, I don't really know now, but after living in Canada for the first 34 yrs of my life, I seen more gratitude for the Defence Force here in one day (25 Apr 95) than I seen in my entire life in Canada. Infact it gave be goosebumps and a sense of pride which was in many ways overwhelming. I never expereinced this intensness before. I guess you just have to be here on ANZAC Day to see for yourself, and when you are a part of it, its even better.

Its not that we as Cdns hate our Defence Force, we just look at the whole thing differently compaired to the Australian view. Appreciation is openly expressed here in more ways than one can describe.

I never really seen this extent of wide open national pride, awareness, gratitude and thankfulness in Canada.

Different strokes for different folks.

Aside from ANZAC Day, the general public are always aware of deployments and other activities the ADF is in. Such as costal patrols, etc. Most support ther troops, but some might be dismayed at the govt over our continious action in Iraq anad A-stan. Its viewed as our government, right or wrong, either way, support our troops.

Of course we have our fare share of leftist wingnuts (elected and otherwise) who would love to see our weapons smelted and turned into farm machinery. There is always a few nuts in every basket.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[1feral1]

Terrorists aren't going to attack Canada

Why do you think this?

I would not be so nieve mate. You have no idea whats going on in the living rooms and other places as you read this, secret meetings, etc right in dear ole Canada. Lets hope they don't attack, but there are many who view you own existance and what you stand for as pure evil, and want you and your way of life ended, all just for being who you are.

Extreme radical islamic terrorism is alive and well, and everyhwere these days and Canada is NOT exempt by any means, and those that deny this are simply lying to themselves.

I'll close by saying I wish you were right.

Wes

 

[George Wallace]

Terrorists aren't going to attack Canada, but if they did, I'd bet a lot of people would demand that the Canadian Forces be withdrawn from Afghanistan to prevent further attacks.

Obviously, with this statement you don't believe we have any Terrorists/Murders in Canada.   I suppose you also don't remember where the Air India Bombers resided?   Two bombings, one blowing up an Air India flight off the coast of Ireland, and the other, thankfully, blowing up less effectively on the ground in Tokyo; all originating in BC.   The Millennium bomber from Montreal.   How many more are sitting in wait?   Open your eyes; Smell the Coffee: They are here.....Waiting their time.

 

[R0B]

On the contrary, I'm sure there are terrorists in Canada, but they would have little or no reason to attack Canadian targets when they could do more damage and attract more attention with some other target.

When I say "terrorist," I'm referring to foreign terrorists, such as Islamic fundementalists.

 

[PViddy]

On the contrary, I'm sure there are terrorists in Canada, but they would have little or no reason to attack Canadian targets when they could do more damage and attract more attention with some other target.

When I say "terrorist," I'm referring to foreign terrorists, such as Islamic fundementalists. 

oh man... i'll let sombody else take this one.

 

[George Wallace]

It is only the typical 'naivete' that the majority of Canadians hold.  None, think of there ever being nasty people out there more than willing to tear their heart out and ram it down their throat to choke on.  : "It would never happen here."  :  It already has....but just like the Liberal Party's fiasco's, it is so soon forgotten by the sheeple.

 

[a_majoor]

Terrorists aren't going to attack Canada, but if they did, I'd bet a lot of people would demand that the Canadian Forces be withdrawn from Afghanistan to prevent further attacks.

Let's see; the FLQ, the Sikh "Air India" bombers, The Liberation Tigers of Tamil Elam (LTTE, most famous for having Paul Martin Jr attend a fund raising dinner in Toronto in 2000, a PSYOPS effort to co-opt a Canadian politician and demoralize Tamils living in Canada), the Armenian Secret Army assasinating Turkish diplomats in the 1980s, the "anarchist" group which bombed Litton Industries in the 1980s, the Mohawk "Warriors" at Oka.......

Funny, I don't see too many demands for the CF to garrison the streets or to increase our size and resources to deal with the threats.

 

[R0B]

First, I never wrote or implied that there aren't any terrorists in Canada.
Second, I wrote that "terrorists won't" attack Canada, not that they have in the past, and given that I mentioned Afghanistan in the same sentence, it should be pretty clear that by "terrorist," I implied some sort of Islamic fundamentalists.

[quote author=a_majoor=]Let's see; the FLQ[/quote]

Why not bring up the Upper Canada Rebellion while you're at it?

[quote author=George Wallace]I suppose you also don't remember where the Air India Bombers resided?  Two bombings, one blowing up an Air India flight off the coast of Ireland, and the other, thankfully, blowing up less effectively on the ground in Tokyo; all originating in BC.[/quote]
[quote author=a_majoor=]the Sikh "Air India" bombers[/quote]

This was not an attack against Canada.

[quote author=a_majoor=]The Liberation Tigers of Tamil Elam (LTTE, most famous for having Paul Martin Jr attend a fund raising dinner in Toronto in 2000, a PSYOPS effort to co-opt a Canadian politician and demoralize Tamils living in Canada)[/quote]

They didn't attack Canada.

[quote author=a_majoor=]the Armenian Secret Army assasinating Turkish diplomats in the 1980s[/quote]

This was not an attack against Canada.

[quote author=a_majoor=]the "anarchist" group which bombed Litton Industries in the 1980s[/quote]

An American company that manufactured components for American cruise missiles.

[quote author=a_majoor=]the Mohawk "Warriors" at Oka[/quote]

Terrorists? Not according to Canada.

[quote author=George Wallace]The Millennium bomber from Montreal.[/quote]

And he didn't attack Canada.

[quote author=a_majoor=]Funny, I don't see too many demands for the CF to garrison the streets or to increase our size and resources to deal with the threats.[/quote]

Would you actually like to see the military garrison the country as if this were the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany? I'll restate my point, and if something happens to prove me wrong, I'll gratefully concede, but terrorists aren't going to attack Canada. Foreign terrorists have no good reason to attack this country, and would achieve little by carry out any attack. Domestic terrorists pose a negligible threat, which, in any event, would be best controlled by the police, not the military.

 

[George Wallace]

:brickwall:

 

[PViddy]

  : ???

 

[armyvern]

First, I never wrote or implied that there aren't any terrorists in Canada.
Second, I wrote that "terrorists won't" attack Canada, not that they have in the past, and given that I mentioned Afghanistan in the same sentence, it should be pretty clear that by "terrorist," I implied some sort of Islamic fundamentalists.

Islamic fundamentalists are alive and well in Canada my dear. Landed immigrants/past refugee claimants who are now Canadian Citizens I'm sure are among them.

Why not bring up the Upper Canada Rebellion while you're at it?

Because the Upper Canada Rebellion was not a terrorist action brought about by terrorists.

This was not an attack against Canada.

Deliberately planned and actioned on Canadian soil (although the end-result occurred on foreign soils) by anded immigrants with Canadian citizenship as noted above. Therefore, a Canadian crime. Remember the trial?

They didn't attack Canada.

No but they certainly tried to involve us now didn't they? Deliberately once again. How blind are you really?

This was not an attack against Canada.

Some of these attacks were planned and carried out on Canadian soil, when somebody abuses our country like that...I like to think of it as an attack upon our morals and country... apparently you seem to justify it's not meaning anything.
http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/atrocities/intro/armenian_terrorism_and_the.html

An American company that manufactured components for American cruise missiles.

A company which employed Canadian workers and was located where?? Toronto. I guess that does in fact make it an attack upon Canada. Unless, of course, I've missed when exactly Toronto really did become a country of it's own.
[url]http://www.blackstarreview.com/rev-0090.html]http://www.blackstarreview.com/rev-0090.html][url]http://www.blackstarreview.com/rev-0090.html[/url]

Terrorists? Not according to Canada.

But those involved were not your average law-abiding citizens either.

And he didn't attack Canada.

Another permanent visitor to Canada who used our soil to deliberately plan his attack on a foreign soil. That makes Canada a part of the activity and also made it a criminal offense in this country, whether you want to admit it or not.

Would you actually like to see the military garrison the country as if this were the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany? I'll restate my point, and if something happens to prove me wrong, I'll gratefully concede, but terrorists aren't going to attack Canada. Foreign terrorists have no good reason to attack this country, and would achieve little by carry out any attack. Domestic terrorists pose a negligible threat, which, in any event, would be best controlled by the police, not the military.

Let's see now, foreign citizens and Islamic radicals (some of whom are Canadian Citizens) are right now planning attacks wherever. These people degrade our Country by perpetuating their crap and planning their activities on our soil, and some are doing so right now. Whether or not the physically attack occurs in our country is irrelevant, they are already committing a crime in this nation and therefore attacking the very foundations of Canada.

Wow, you are out there.

 

[R0B]

[quote author=armyvern=]Islamic fundamentalists are alive and well in Canada my dear. Landed immigrants/past refugee claimants who are now Canadian Citizens I'm sure are among them.[/quote]

Sure, it may be. I never said there weren't terrorists in Canada, I said only that terrorists won't attack Canada. I said it a few times, did you miss that part?
Islamic fundamentalists aren't terrorists until they commit a terrorist act or conspire to commit a terrorist act. Until then, they're just practicing their Charter rights. Resist all urges to send them all to some sort of concentration camp. If they don't commit or plan terrorist acts, they're not terrorists. Should the threat of that they may possibly commit some sort of terrorist act justify increased military spending? No. I support increased defense spending for legitimate reasons, but this is nothing more than fear mongering. Besides, assume for a second that Osama bin Laden is hiding in Canada, planning to blow up Roger's Center. Who could best deal with this situation? The Canadian Forces, or CSIS, the RCMP or Provincial or municipal police? The police, obviously, which is why defense spending is not justified in light of this alleged terrorist threat, and why the government doesn't increase defense spending to deal with terrorism, except perhaps to placate voters. If you want to argue, try to counter points I actually make, instead of trying to put words in my mouth.

[quote author=armyvern=]Because the Upper Canada Rebellion was not a terrorist action brought about by terrorists.[/quote]

Why not? If you consider the LTTE and the FLQ to be terrorist groups, why aren't the rebels from the UCR? Not only did they inflict more casualties than the FLQ, the government also dealt with them far more harshly. The only reason they weren't branded terrorist is because the word wasn't used at the time.

[quote author=armyvern=]Deliberately planned and actioned on Canadian soil (although the end-result occurred on foreign soils) by anded immigrants with Canadian citizenship as noted above. Therefore, a Canadian crime. Remember the trial?[/quote]

So that means you have some Canadian citizens and immigrants who are guilty of committing a terrorist act (though they were found to be not-guilty.) Did they attack Canada? Was their goal to attack the Canadian government or Canadian society? No. As a result of the Air India attacks, should the Canadian government increase military spending? No.

[quote author=armyvern=]No but they certainly tried to involve us now didn't they? Deliberately once again. How blind are you really?[/quote]

Sure, they tried to legitimize their cause, and the Prime Minister attended because tens of thousands of Canadian Tamils support them. That doesn't change the fact that their organization is allegedly responsible for acts of terrorism, but did they attack Canada? No. Were they trying to attack or harm the Canadian government or Canadian society? No, quite the opposite.

[quote author=armyvern=]Some of these attacks were planned and carried out on Canadian soil, when somebody abuses our country like that...I like to think of it as an attack upon our morals and country... apparently you seem to justify it's not meaning anything.[/quote]

Sure, they abused our country and its laws. Does that make them terrorists? No. Do counterfeit DVD and drug smugglers who use Canada as a gateway to the US abuse Canada and its laws? Yes. Are they terrorists? No. Is Israel a terrorist state for assassinating Gerald Bull in Belgium? No. An attack on "morals and country" does not constitute terrorism. By such a lose definition, gay marriage or abortion campaigners could be considered terrorists by tens of thousands. Ask yourself, did they attack Canada? No, they did not.

[quote author=armyvern=]A company which employed Canadian workers and was located where?? Toronto. I guess that does in fact make it an attack upon Canada. Unless, of course, I've missed when exactly Toronto really did become a country of it's own.[/quote]

Yeah, you got me. I just checked map and Toronto isn't a country. Did they bomb Litton because it employed Canadians or because it was located in Toronto? No, they bombed it because it was an American defense contractor that designed and manufactured components for American cruise missiles. I agree that this is an act of terrorism that occurred within Canada, I never said it wasn't. This is probably the best case you'll be able to reference, and it took place over 23 years ago. Not to mention, it in no way justifies increasing the CF's budget.

[quote author=armyvern=]But those involved were not your average law-abiding citizens either.[/quote]

I never said they were, I simply stated that the Canadian Government does not consider them to be terrorists.

[quote author=armyvern=]Another permanent visitor to Canada who used our soil to deliberately plan his attack on a foreign soil. That makes Canada a part of the activity and also made it a criminal offense in this country, whether you want to admit it or not.[/quote]

Again, it's as if you're trying to argue something I'm not. I said he didn't attack Canada. He didn't. Is he a terrorist? Yes. Should Canada have arrested him if possible? Yes. Would have increasing the Canadian Forces' budget led to an arrest? No. What's your point?

[quote author=armyvern=]Let's see now, foreign citizens and Islamic radicals (some of whom are Canadian Citizens) are right now planning attacks wherever. These people degrade our Country by perpetuating their crap and planning their activities on our soil, and some are doing so right now. Whether or not the physically attack occurs in our country is irrelevant, they are already committing a crime in this nation and therefore attacking the very foundations of Canada.[/quote]

Unless they attack Canada, I'm right, because I've never contended that there are no terrorists in Canada. Increasing the CF's budget won't stop these people from entering Canada or planning terrorist acts. If Canada wants to stop them, it should rather implement tougher border regulations, particularly focused on screening for foreign terrorists and criminals, and should increase the budget police forces have to investigate suspected terrorists.

Again, terrorists won't attack Canada.

 

[armyvern]

Unless they attack Canada, I'm right, because I've never contended that there are no terrorists in Canada. Increasing the CF's budget won't stop these people from entering Canada or planning terrorist acts. If Canada wants to stop them, it should rather implement tougher border regulations, particularly focused on screening for foreign terrorists and criminals, and should increase the budget police forces have to investigate suspected terrorists.

Wow...we have some big border's to protect, currently also well within the mandate of the CF who, by the way actually exist, to enforce our Sovereign status and thus our borders, peacekeeping is a filler. As for example our Naval fleet does with it's soverignty patrols. Jump down off the horse your riding and get back to your mid-terms I presume. I'm getting the feeling here you'd like to see the CF, whose primary mandate it is to protect the borders of our nation and it's soverignty - possibly with their lives - , disbanded with all resulting monies saved going to hire enough police officer's to do the job. 

Again, terrorists won't attack Canada.

I don't think there's a person on this board who would wish you were wrong with this thought. My thought is that when these guys plan and carry out such crap from our soil...it is already an attack upon our country. That obviously is not your view. I think you're wrong.