Challenger/"VIP" Jet/CF Chopper Use (CDS, others) [merged]

[Strike]

The horrific PR is on the part of the CF info machine doing another piss poor job explaining basic facts to a public who's stupidity ranks on a biblical scale.

It doesn't matter how well you try to explain it, the public doesn't care or want to listen.  You could say that this was a reward to make up for maybe a crew or two that has had to work for two three weeks straight as an example and people would get pissed off.  As far as they are concerned, we should never have any fun and be there to serve the public 24/7.  Heck, even having a family day at a unit, any unit, pisses off some people.  What if this was that unit's answer to adventure training because they just can't afford to take the time off?  It's a more than legitimate explanation for all of us but, again, the public doesn't care.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

We never used to call it a reward, something the civies get in a snit about.

We used to call it Adventure Training, which was a perfectly plausible, scheduled activity and easily explained, even to civies, who accepted it as part of our job training.

Shit happens when people try to deviate from the old tried and true formulas, in order to get their 'leading change' bubbles filled.

Some just can't leave well enough alone.

 

[fraserdw]

The public is convinced that we do nothing but wear out our equipment playing when we are not making war.  Is it OK to confirm that.  Would it be OK for the CO of the LDSH(RC) to let a hard working crew take their Leopard II to the local off base fishing hole for afternoon of fishing as long as they stayed in radio contact?  Same thing!  I know this and I like to think that the people who made LtCol are smarter than me.  That helps me sleep at night and allows me to be proud of my MOIs despite the lack of promotion!

 

[Strike]

The public is convinced that we do nothing but wear out our equipment playing when we are not making war.  Is it OK to confirm that.  Would it be OK for the CO of the LDSH(RC) to let a hard working crew take their Leopard II to the local off base fishing hole for afternoon of fishing as long as they stayed in radio contact?  Same thing!  I know this and I like to think that the people who made LtCol are smarter than me.  That helps me sleep at night and allows me to be proud of my MOIs despite the lack of promotion!

Sorry.  Can't realistically compare it considering the legal ramifications of taking a 60+ tonne tracked vehicle on a public highway without getting the proper paperwork done beforehand.

Now, if you were to get a helo to go and drop a bunch of guys from LdSH(RC) of in the middle of nowhere so that they can do some backcountry camping...that is comparable.

Or getting a vehicle from transport with Canada plates and driving to a fishing spot.

If you're going to make a comparison at least make one that is at least possible.

 

[fraserdw]

I made the comparison based on fuel cost not vehicle type, I guess I should have explained that.  In any case, I was taught in my Army Ethics course that we do not reward ourselves or our troops with DND assets and consumables unless there is a training value for the unit and that training value is documented so that when the pics show up on FACEBOOK (and they will) the PAffO can release a press statement that, with the predated and signed documents, states the training value of the activity.  Even the Press has a hard time arguing with facts.  It my unit, when we work our asses off and put in 7 day weeks with nights and weekends, we get rewarded too...we get our 48 hours Short Leave for that month, not a helo with full tank of gas!  I have seen MCpls fried for doing the same with a DND 1/2 ton.

Every drop of fuel in the Helo belongs to the Canadian people and they got a right to question how every drop is spent, we, the Canadian military, are fully accountable to them no matter how stupid some of us think they are.  None of this equipment belongs to us and we have no right to seek personal profit or enjoyment from it unless there is a individual or collective training value.  It is also the checks and balances of a free society that allow the Press to question this and our obligation to be transparent using our equipment.  Of course, maybe, I am just taking this whole ethical thing too seriously.

 

[Strike]

Part of the problem is the atmosphere for the CF in that area. As far as the locals (and Canadians writ large) every aircraft painted yellow is a SAR aircraft, even though that is not the case. So, anytime a yellow aircraft is doing something not related to SAR, the public goes nuts. Who knows. The guys could have been doing some adventure training, or they could have been sitting around waiting for the second half of a tasking and, instead of going back to the base they decided to save some fuel and fish while thy waited. It doesn't matter, because they weren't doing SAR, so no matter what the CF machine puts out there, there will be backlash.

 

[fraserdw]

Part of the problem is the atmosphere for the CF in that area. As far as the locals (and Canadians writ large) every aircraft painted yellow is a SAR aircraft, even though that is not the case. So, anytime a yellow aircraft is doing something not related to SAR, the public goes nuts. Who knows. The guys could have been doing some adventure training, or they could have been sitting around waiting for the second half of a tasking and, instead of going back to the base they decided to save some fuel and fish while thy waited. It doesn't matter, because they weren't doing SAR, so no matter what the CF machine puts out there, there will be backlash.

I concur, that why we have to walk on eggs shells and document our use of equipment.  Justify, justify and justify!

 

[Strike]

And what I'm saying is that, when it comes to yellow aircraft and that part of Canada, it doesn't matter how justified you are in doing what you're doing, if it's not flying SAR, according to the public you're wasting money. Doesn't even matter that the bird is NOT a SAR aircraft.

 

[dapaterson]

According to the 444 Sqn website, it can be used as a SAR a/c: http://rcaf.forces.gc.ca/5w-5e/sqns-escs/page-eng.asp?id=585

And given the paucity of other CF flight activity in Newfoundland and Labrador, I suspect they spend more hours doing SAR than any other support tasks.

(One could turn this into the "Why does 5 Wing even exist?" thread as well...)

 

[aesop081]

According to the 444 Sqn website, it can be used as a SAR a/c: http://rcaf.forces.gc.ca/5w-5e/sqns-escs/page-eng.asp?id=585

Any CF aircraft has SAR has a secondary role. All of them.

The combat support squadrons are not national SAR-tasked units. They exist to support local flying operations. They are painted yellow as a result of the the investigation into a CH-146 crash in the GB area some years ago.

Saying that this perticular case weakened SAR response in NL is like saying that the CP-140s being at RIMPAC right now are degrading the SAR response on the West coast.

Bad optics aside, every flight is a training flight, crews MUST fly set number of hours and perform certain tasks on a recurring basis. This particular task accomplished many things at once.

If primary SAR in the region had been unavailable ( no serviceable CH-149s for example), other units like 444 Sqn would have seen their readiness posture changed. An example of this is the West coats where CP-140s are placed on 2 hour standby posture (vice the normal 12 hours) when none of the CC-115s are up and running. If the only 140 available is out flying, the crew is either called back to base or holds the standby in the air (usually if a full crew is already airborne) until it returns.

The CH-146 is this case was in contact with the unit and should the situation require a change from 12-hour standby, would easily have been recalled home to hold the new posture or, depending who was with the aircraft, could have been launched on a SAR right from where they were.

 

[dapaterson]

Any CF aircraft has SAR has a secondary role. All of them.

The combat support squadrons are not national SAR-tasked units. They exist to support local flying operations. They are painted yellow as a result of the the investigation into a CH-146 crash in the GB area some years ago.

Except the only local flying operations are 444 Squadron - the very definition of a self-licking icecream cone - "We have a support squadron in Goose Bay to support the support squadron's flights."

 

[aesop081]

Except the only local flying operations are 444 Squadron - the very definition of a self-licking icecream cone - "We have a support squadron in Goose Bay to support the support squadron's flights."

That there is no "local flying" to support is, IMHO, immaterial. We can debate the continued existence of GB and 5 Wing elsewhere until the cows come home. The squadron is not tasked to provide national-SAR as a primary mission.

 

[Zoomie]

Except the only local flying operations are 444 Squadron

NATO nations are back to flying out of Goose Bay.  While not to the extreme that occurred in the past - 444 is not the only asset flying up there.

 

[dogger1936]

Some seem to believe there is a large support for our troops and the military in general in Newfoundland. Compared to Alberta, Ontario, NB; I have to say there is a lot less support from what I've seen in Newfoundland.

It's a fine mix between jealousy that someone has a excellent career; and a huge hate on for anything that comes out of Ottawa. It doesn't matter WHO is in power; Ottawa= bad.

This province is a jealousy filled hate factory when it comes to anything to do with the federal government ( Or any government who doesn't spew I hate Ottawa every 20 seconds).

 

[Maxadia]

So how come I don't see any national new reports about RCMP officers in my area using resources to do a coffee run or go for lunch, when I see them in the drive through at Tim's?

Oh right....it's just a car.  :

 

[Rifleman62]

Is it the Cdn "public" or the opposition MP, plus the anti Harper media?

I doubt anyone outside of Newfoundland, other than the opposition, plus the anti Harper media,and some political junkies, give a rat's ass.

The military, in this case again, is the instrument to bash the evil government that is driving Canada to economic ruin, concurrently losing the respect of the UN.

 

[PuckChaser]

The Conservatives used the CF as a main platform plank, so everyone with an axe to grind digs up what they can on the CF. We're under a microscope by all those that want to attack government policy. If this was the 90s, no one would care that we're using helicopters for adventure training, if we even had money for fuel to fly them back then.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Part of the problem is the atmosphere for the CF in that area. As far as the locals (and Canadians writ large) every aircraft painted yellow is a SAR aircraft, even though that is not the case. So, anytime a yellow aircraft is doing something not related to SAR, the public goes nuts.

Is there really any military reason for the SAR bird to be yellow.  Perhaps now is the time for a little downloading of search and rescue onto the RCMP or even provinces [RNC, OPP etc]. CSAR would obviously remain an air force mission.   

 

[mariomike]

Perhaps now is the time for a little downloading of search and rescue onto the RCMP or even provinces [RNC, OPP etc].   

According to the OPP website,
"Search and Rescue (SAR) - approximately 65 per cent of all helicopter missions are of a search and rescue nature;":
http://www.opp.ca/ecms/index.php?id=64

 

[Strike]

Is there really any military reason for the SAR bird to be yellow.

Considering the crappy situations they always find themselves in and the higher risk they have of having to ditch, themselves?  I would say yes.  And we've already established that the same goes for aircraft working in Northern areas, like 444 Sqn or the Twin Otters in Yellowknife, even though their jobs are not primarily SAR.