Chaplain ( Merged )

[Foxhound]

I remember once, waaaaaaaay back at a platoon smoker, the Protestant Chaplain dropped by with the OC.  He started chatting with us and one of the questions he was asked was, "Are you allowed to fight?", or words to that effect.  His answer was that even though he wasn't supposed to perform a combat role he would, if necessary, defend himself and others with whatever means available to him up to and including picking up a rifle and aiming at the center of the visible mass.

Needless to say he made some new friends.

 

[Pugnacious]

"To my knowlege, they are not authourized to use force."

Even in Self defence?
Protecting fellow soldiers  ?
Do they recive any weapons or soldier trianing?

Are they recognized as some form of non-combatant under international law?

Sorry for the extra questions.;D

BTW: I also think they fill an important role, and are needed.

Cheers!
P.

 

[1feral1]

We got a Padre, a CAPT and he wears the webbing and gets totally camed up etc, but I have never seen him with a rifle. I am by no means a religious person, but all SNCO and Offrs do attend his services whilst in the field, and they are awesome. Recently he used two pieces of timber wrapped with barbed wire, and always has something good to say, well getting the 'good' word accross.

He must be in his 40s and is always involved with the Lads, even getting work expereince on the gun line, and participating in any of the COs challenges of extreme trg, etc.

Even the God Squad works hard and plays hard!

Well liked and respected by all ranks within the regt.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I believe clergy are permitted by the Geneva convention to carry sidearms or personal weapons, just as medical personnel are.  I've not heard of Canadian clergy doing so, nor would they be expected to do so.

In World War Two, there is photographic evidence that German chaplains did carry weapons for personal protection - part of their uniform was a red cross, the international symbol for "Don't Shoot".  Given the nature of warfare on the Eastern Front, one can understand the weapons.

I would be surprised to find that Canadian clergy ever actually did carry weapons, however, even if permitted to carry. 

The most famous Canadian chaplain in WW II may have been Honourary Captain John Foote, who won the Victoria Cross at Dieppe for volunteering to stay on the beaches and tend to his men in captiivity.  He was seen on the beach firing a Bren Gun during the battle.

 

[Pugnacious]

Wow, neat stuff.

Cheers!
P.

 

[greydak]

A padre's word of advice can be over-powered by your platoon or company commanders, but that almost never happens because most think his word is too close to gods?
  Thats what I was told.

 

[pbi]

To answer your questions:

"Are Canadian Army Chaplains expected, and trained to fight along side the other troops?

Chaplains complete a reduced form of Basic Officer Training. They are not trained to actually engage in combat, since this is really not their role, although they are of great value to troops on operations (Let me tell you...) Chaplains serve in the field right alongside the troops-this is why they aer so important. With all the ops we do today, we have re-discovered the importance of the Chaplain.

Are they armed and in the field of combat also?

We don't usually arm them. In theory they could be armed for self defence (like medics are) but I have never seen it.

How is the ethics of  taking life (or potental of) handled by their group?

It varies from chaplain to chaplain, but as a group the chaplaincy has obviously accepted the fact that the purpose of the military is to use force to achieve a goal. If this were not true there would be no Chaplain Branch. "Using force" means killing and destroying when these are called for. You might think that Christians cannot accept this but in fact Christianity and most of the major religions (incl Islam and Judaism) have for centuries recognized the "Just War"theory or some variant of it. The chaplains don't take life themselves, but they minister to the spiritual and psychological needs and sufferings of those of us who do (or whose role is to...) This is a huge task for our chaplains and one that in my opinion and experience they carry out in an outstanding manner. However, some smaller Christian denominations (such as the United Church) have in the past expressed disagreement with the role of the Chaplaincy, mainly because of pacifist tendencies or very literal and selective interpretations of the Christian faith. In my opinion the Chaplains also do a good job of keeping us between the ethical and moral fences through their work. I'm all for them! Cheers.

 

[combat_medic]

Members of the Chaplaincy, just as Medical Personnel are considered non-combattants and are protected under the Geneva Convention.

For example, a medic or a chaplain is not supposed to be taken prisoner unless there is an immediate need for their skills. If they are not needed, they are supposed to be released. They are also not supposed to take any offensive action against the enemy, and only supposed to be armed in self-defense or take defensive actions. You can look here:

http://www.victoriacross.net/award.asp?vc=417

about a Canadian Chaplain who won the Victoria Cross by tending to the wounded and then turning himself over to the Germans in order to give aid and comfort to his own men who had already been captured. Great story!

However, with current asymetric warfare, and with the majority of potential enemies being non-signatories of the Geneva Convention, things may not always work out the way they're "supposed" to.

 

[pbi]

Combat Medic: good (if somewhat disturbing) observation ref the applicability of the Geneva Conventions and the Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC) in "asymmetric warfare".

While we are clearly bound by the NDA to follow these rules, others are not. In fact, others may not even know what they are. This is the ancient problem that has faced conventional armies since the Legions tried to keep order in ancient Britain: if the bad guys torture and butcher, do we? Probably not: at least not if we don't want to: a) be imprisoned or b) have similar retaliation against our own PWs.

But what do you tell your troops when they find Bloggins nailed to a tree? Huge dilemma, and not one I'd pretend to know the perfect answer to. Our historical track record on the "care and feeding" of PWs is mixed, but in general I think we'e done not too badly if stacked up against the world average. Cheers.

 

[Trinity]

Padre: do you think your job would exist in the CF if it did not contribute to the ultimate capabilities of the military: that is fighting wars?  Your job is about helping soldiers with spirituality, morality etc.  The reason the military wants these soldiers to be helped is so that they can do their job as effectively as possible (either helping them directly, or knowing that help is there if they need it at some point). 

Steve...

I'm not really sure how to respond to you.  You are clinging to this one point for sheer life and refuse to give it up.
The sum of what Chaplains do cannot be summed up into making the troops feel better so they can wage war.

I even posted parts of the manual, which states during war chaplains protect POW's, civilians, do projects in local areas, etc.
That does not help soldiers with spirituality and help wage war.  It is part of being a moral compas and helping all irregardless of
who they are.

I did not disagree to say that a small part of what we do can be seen as what you are saying happens, but, our job is spiritual
care of the soldier irregardless of war, training, tour, releasing.  We are the only trade in the CF that provides services to families
of soldiers (i.e. civilians). (That i'm aware of). 

If you want to take one specific point of this trade and make it the back bone of your argument I can't stop you.
But let me re-irrerate, there is one line in the 15 chapter manual that supports what you say.  Thats 15 chapters!!!
So how much MORE does my trade entail?

How about you just trust me on this???? It is my trade. 

 

[Steve031]

Sorry Padre, I don't mean to trivialize your trade.  But if you boil down everything you've listed, from protecting POWs to helping with humanitarian aid, all of these roles have one ultimate goal in mind: the furtherance of the military's role.  For example, by protecting POWs you are preventing a bad public relations problem from occurring (such as Abu Garhaib).  My point is that you wouldn't have a job if it did not contribute to the goal of the military, which is fighting wars.

In Calgary, my unit is involved extensively with our affiliated Cadet unit and I believe this is a very good thing.  The advantage of having reservists as instructors for cadet units is obvious, however Cadets cannot be instructed by just any reservist.  That's why we have the CIC, only problem being that CIC training is so limited that most CIC officers can do very little well, but almost everything (within their trade) mediocre.  It's easy to allow ourselves to be caught up in the rhetoric of CIC haters, but if you take away their rough edges I think you'll find these people do make some legitimate points.

 

[Trinity]

Steve

I think I know why we are having this problem..

I'm looking at my trade from a pastoral point of view (which obviously I should)

You are looking from an objective or goal oriented position.

One can interpret the same data in different ways.

the goal of the military, which is fighting wars.

I would disagree with this statement.  It is very broad and misleading.

To quote from the Chaplains Manual, Chapter 01, para 2

2. The fundamental purpose of the military is to serve in defence of the nation, and to protect its interests at home and abroad. This involves both the disciplined application of lethal force and the unlimited liability of every soldier. The military can only remain effective, however, if its personnel and material requirements are recognized, understood, and supported by Canadians, and as long as it is seen by Canadians to affirm and reflect those good and basic qualities which define us as a nation.

Defence of the nation does not mean wage war.
Protect the interest of the nation at home and abroad.

Thus, peacekeeping
domestic operations
humanitarian aid 

are three simple examples of the Army in legitimate purposes which do not "wage war" as your definition
is the only purpose of the army.

So both your definitions of soldier and the definition or pupose of the army I would have to politely disagree with.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Sorry Padre, I don't mean to trivialize your trade.  But if you boil down everything you've listed, from protecting POWs to helping with humanitarian aid, all of these roles have one ultimate goal in mind: the furtherance of the military's role.  For example, by protecting POWs you are preventing a bad public relations problem from occurring (such as Abu Garhaib).  My point is that you wouldn't have a job if it did not contribute to the goal of the military, which is fighting wars.

What sort of mambo ja hambo is that???  Prevent bad public relations.  Wouldn't have a job if it was not for us...fighting wars...

This should break into another thread I think we can get some good dialogue/debate going.  As for this statement;

I'm not going to argue each individual case, because I'm not trying to say it's alright for NCMs not to salute an officer.  I'm just explaining why so many of us feel this way.

What's this us stuff?? you got a mouse in yer pocket?  I never felt that way, I have been 031 over 15 years.  Sure there is that feeling that the cadets are our little brothers and sisters, but we are all of the same regimental family.  The CIC's in our regiment are respected as an officer holding a commission in OUR regimental family, and are offered the same High five.

dileas

tess

 

[McG]

This should break into another thread I think we can get some good dialogue/debate going.  

Done.

 

[the 48th regulator]

cheers brother,

dileas

tess

 

[aesop081]

Steve

Defence of the nation does not mean wage war.
Protect the interest of the nation at home and abroad.

Thus, peacekeeping
domestic operations
humanitarian aid  

are three simple examples of the Army in legitimate purposes which do not "wage war" as your definition
is the only purpose of the army.

At the risk of being struck by lightning, i will disagree with you.  Peacekeeping and humanitarian endevours are NOT what the goverment trains soldiers for, no matter how much it makes the public "feel-good". Having served in peacekeeping operations, they are a a pointless political maneouvre. The purpose of the military in to impose the will of the government by the application of controlled military force, everything else is just smoke and mirrors.

 

[the 48th regulator]

uhuh nope.

We train for peacekeeping as well,

At least I remember we did before our tour, and I am sure the troops, right now going to places that are peacekeeping oriented, train for that as well.

As for being a political will....

well you, and I have seen eye to eye many many times, and once again you hit the nail on the head.

dileas

tess

 

[Alex252]

:

 

[aesop081]

:

What are you rolling your eyes for ? How many operations overseas have you served on ? I did not arrived at my conclusion based on news reports......I've been there and done that.

Tess, i see where you are comming from regards to training but i look at it this way: On my QL3, QL5A, QL5B and QL6A....there was nothing oriented towards peackeeping. I learn how to lay minefields and booby-traps to KILL enemy soldiers. Learnt demolitions to allow our forces to KILL the ennemy....se what i am getting at ?

Don't get me wrong, not to take away from shared events but .....

"close with and destroy the ennemy" not " close with and distribute food aid"   ;D

"assist freindly troops to live, move and fight on the battlefield and deny the same to the ennemy" not " build schools to make the liberals look good on the CBC news"

 

[the 48th regulator]

hehehehe

true dat,

but you also learned how to disarm them, and if it was not for the likes of yourself, as well as many others of your former and blessed trade (hehe had to throw that one in on this thread) there woud be  a hell of a lot more maimed and dead.

ain't that all about peace love and no bell bottoms...

chimo and dileas

tess