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Close Combat Vehicle: Canada to buy another AFV (& keeping LAV III & TLAV)

Don't compare the PUMA with CV90 series.
The CV90 is a classic IFV design and a excellent plattform. 30mm, 40mm, 120mm.
In 2002 Germany canceled the Panther Project. The Panther was also an classic IFV design like the Marder.
Iraq and A'stan showed new requirements on troop transport and we developed the PUMA. Based on an older multi platform project, KMW realized the PUMA in a short period.

The Puma is expensive but is equipped with a lot modern electronics like MUSS, against AT missiles.
 
Mackie said:
Don't compare the PUMA with CV90 series.
The CV90 is a classic IFV design and a excellent plattform. 30mm, 40mm, 120mm.
In 2002 Germany canceled the Panther Project. The Panther was also an classic IFV design like the Marder.
Iraq and A'stan showed new requirements on troop transport and we developed the PUMA. Based on an older multi platform project, KMW realized the PUMA in a short period.

The Puma is expensive but is equipped with a lot modern electronics like MUSS, against AT missiles.

Sorry to correct you, but what you call the Panther project IS the Puma. Panther and then Igel where just possible name´s for it. First it was Panther, but someone decided it would be not political correct (regarding WW2 Panther). Then it should be called Igel. Luckily someone noticed that that name sucked. And now it´s finaly called Puma.

Regards,
ironduke57
 
Colin P said:
Hopefully one day you will see Canadian Flags on CV-90's for real!!!

Well for my first post I can report that Canada has at least asked to borrow CV90 from Sweden  8)

For tests. Our ground warfare school is now preparing to train canadian crews.

This is a result of the Bold Quest experience...

source: Armed forces budget review
snapshot: http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/7475/kanadad3dl0.jpg
http://www2.mil.se/sv/Dokument/Arsredovisningar/Post.aspx

 
Matt_Fisher said:
I think for acquisition purposes that will be unavoidable.

I believe Canada is acquiring a CV90 for testing purposes.  With the interest that has also been shown in the PUMA, I am sure Canada is looking at making an order in the near future, and I can't see us getting both.
 
ironduke57 said:
Sorry to correct you, but what you call the Panther project IS the Puma. Panther and then Igel where just possible name´s for it. First it was Panther, but someone decided it would be not political correct (regarding WW2 Panther). Then it should be called Igel. Luckily someone noticed that that name sucked. And now it´s finaly called Puma.

It's correct that the Puma/Igel based on the Panther. But the Panther design was very different. More firepower, less armor.
That's my intention. IEDs and RPGs changed the thinking about armor.

Respectfully,
Mackie
 
Steel Horse said:
I believe Canada is acquiring a CV90 for testing purposes.  With the interest that has also been shown in the PUMA, I am sure Canada is looking at making an order in the near future, and I can't see us getting both.

::)  I can't see us getting either.
 
Teddy Ruxpin said:
::)  I can't see us getting either.

Well we didn't expect to be using leopard 2A6M's either, this government has an interest in re-equipping the military.
 
Colin P said:
Well we didn't expect to be using leopard 2A6M's either, this government has an interest in re-equipping the military.

Lemme see....  No capital project, no noise on the armour net, no potential or articulated requirement, no place in the strategic structural plan, no articulated operational shortfall, no place in future manning requirements...

The source for CV90s is one line in the Swedish defence budget (21 Feb 08), where the Swedes state they had a query regarding a Canadian loan - nothing more.  There may be potential interest in the vehicle as a trial, but that's a long way from a desire to purchase.

Then again, what do I know?  ::) 
 
looks like I messed up the quote thing.  hmmmm

Well, this is not the only place that I have heard this pop-up.  It seems that we might be a little more interested than we first thought.  The big question is how intersted?  There are lots of variants and lots of possible systems (like the SEP).

I would like us to look at writing out what we want and then look to who can provide it, then start trying it.  I get pretty sick of GOBI that causes us to "borrow" some to try....  I am a big fan of S%$t or get off the pot, but lets be realistic, borrowing one without deciding what "things" we need it to do is like sitting to S%$t, wiping, then doing it in your drawers.  Now lets see if we like it and it meets our needs.  Do we want to get stuck in the middle of a buy for something that doesn't fit our needs? (ADO = distance, which means you need speed.  CV-90 IFV has a top speed of 70K, when new and bare, probably 50k or less with cbt ld and 5 years old.)

IT OS POSSIBLE TO BUY FROM OTHER SOURCES BESIDES THE "GLOSSY"!!!
 
Teddy Ruxpin said:
Lemme see....  No capital project, no noise on the armour net, no potential or articulated requirement, no place in the strategic structural plan, no articulated operational shortfall, no place in future manning requirements...

The source for CV90s is one line in the Swedish defence budget (21 Feb 08), where the Swedes state they had a query regarding a Canadian loan - nothing more.  There may be potential interest in the vehicle as a trial, but that's a long way from a desire to purchase.

Then again, what do I know?  ::) 

Well I am not privy to the NDHQ rumour mill and may be blowing smoke from my arse, but i certainly hope that I am right and you are wrong, not for personal reasons, but because I think the CV90 is a decent piece of kit that would go well with our leopards and allow us to field both light and heavy forces.
 
Colin P said:
Well I am not privy to the NDHQ rumour mill and may be blowing smoke from my arse, but i certainly hope that I am right and you are wrong, ... because I think the CV90 is a decent piece of kit that would go well with our leopards and allow us to field both light and heavy forces.
What capability gap would it fill?  What doctrinal role would it take?  Where would the support fleet come from?  Is it the best vehicle for our requirements?  Hell, what are our requirements and how do we measure which vehicle meets them?  Rushing off to buy a major fleet because "because I think the CV90 is a decent piece of kit" could land us with the wrong decent piece of kit (in which case maybe we'd be better without it).
 
George Wallace said:
Not a 'Track Guy' are ya.  The PUMA probably has the German Diehl Track, just like the M113 and Leopards.

Obviously you have never worked with the old American and British Track that had 'Drift Pins',  Now that track really sucked.  So don't complain.

- I recall "Drift Pins" were the tools we hit with a hammer to drive out the "Track Pins" that connected the track shoes together.  The shoes had to be at the right angle for the rubber bushings in the shoes to line up with the hexagonal (octagonal?) track pins.  The track pads each had a threaded post centered on their back, making them a bunch of weird 'bolts'.  They were each secured to their respective shoes by a nut.  A real beauty to change in the mud, and awful once that mud froze...
 
Teddy Ruxpin said:
The source for CV90s is one line in the Swedish defence budget (21 Feb 08), where the Swedes state they had a query regarding a Canadian loan - nothing more.

I am going on other people's translations, but it seems as though there is more to it then just a query regarding a loan.  Something about the the "MSS" (not sure exactly who/what that is) preparing to train Canadian crews.
 
Hey, if someone somewhere is willing to buy a sexy new vehicle, then I'm all for it provided there is, as MCG pointed out, a coherent plan and a valid operational requirement.  Thus far, there is no evidence of either behind Puma or CV90. 

As for this "loan" from the Swedes, who knows?  It could easily be something like a DRE anti-mine trial, a loan to trial fit GD comms gear in support of a marketing plan, anything.  Or, as I suspect, its some of our guys kicking tires (or in this case track).

I do know that the Army (and the Armour Corps in particular) has its hands full with Leopard II fielding - let alone bringing on yet another incompatible vehicle firing non-Canadian standard ammunition.
 
MCG said:
What capability gap would it fill?  What doctrinal role would it take?  Where would the support fleet come from?  Is it the best vehicle for our requirements?  Hell, what are our requirements and how do we measure which vehicle meets them?  Rushing off to buy a major fleet because "because I think the CV90 is a decent piece of kit" could land us with the wrong decent piece of kit (in which case maybe we'd be better without it).

As I have said elsewhere, we are cursed with having 2 distinct and opposing requirements, the domestic defence and the need for an expeditionary force that could be fielded anywhere from the tropics to the Arctic, from peacekeeping, peacemaking and all out war. Whatever happens, we will not have the time to create more capability, so I see the need for at least one heavy element equipped with heavier tracked vehicles and rest in lighter vehicles such as the LAV and it's successors. So far the CV90 has seem to have demonstrated a good cross country ability in snow and still successfully operated in the tropics. It has already been intergrated with Leo2's by other country with some similarities to our needs (Sweden).

While the gun is different, a some point you are going to have to move on beyond what we are currently using, the CV90 could be fitted with the same gun as the LAV, but it would seem to be a waste of the platform abilities, the larger calibre guns do offer more options for fuzing and higher HE content. The Warrior was fitted with the same gun as the Scimitar to be "standard" with the rest of the fleet and now you have a large modern platform using a decent but old gun with a limited rate of fire.

As far as doctrine goes, the CV90 is in service and by people we can consider allies, a review of doctrinal lessons already learned can be done, so we don't reinvent the wheel. I think the LAV is a great piece of kit, but I know it is not a wonder weapon and like all is constrained by it's design to certain roles which it does well. the CV90 (or similar) would give us a far broader doctrine and tactical ability to bring to the mix. Our army maintained a much more diverse equipment roster in the field in WWII, Korea and Cold war Germany without the benefits of computerized logistical systems. Lets face it, if we can't handle having a tracked IFV, MBT and the LAV fielded at once, then our supply & logistical system is completely broken.

The CV90 family also offers a fairly complete family to support operations, IFV, engineering, SPG, Direct fire, HQ, ADA and I suspect they could also build a resupply vehicle on the chassis. Of all the contenders in this field, I suspect it is the most capable and flexible and comes with the knowledge that it is in service and seen service in a variety of climates.
 
More to come on this soon, I don't know what I can put on an open forum.

I think the issue is having a veh that can operate well alongside the Leopard 2 in a Cbt Tm.
 
Colin P said:
Lets face it, if we can't handle having a tracked IFV, MBT and the LAV fielded at once, then our supply & logistical system is completely broken.
You've over simplified what it takes to support a fleet.  You've also forgetten some of our fleets such as Gen II LAV (Bison & Coyote), TLAV, MTVL, RG-31, Cougar, etc.

Garett said:
I think the issue is having a veh that can operate well alongside the Leopard 2 in a Cbt Tm.
You mean as in having comparable tracked mobility?  Something like a TLAV or MTVL?
 
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