Comd RCAF says that “RCAF is not ready for conflict"

[CBH99]

Pretty sure they would be just Divisions.

Blasphemy!!

They would just be Wings good sir, wings...

 

[Good2Golf]

Blasphemy!!

They would just be Wings good sir, wings...

Divisions and Groups (above Wings) go back to the 40s/50s…it’s not just aping an Army thing.

Less 1, 2 and 12 Wing (which represent a capability, in the spirit of original capability-based organizations, not a base), modern RCAF Wings represent more of a post-unification Base structure, than a capability-based organization.


Edit to add: The last time sub-Division capability-based organization existing was 10TAG/14TrgGp/ATG/FG/MAG prior to 1 CAD reactivation in 1997.

 

[Quirky]

Do Canadians want their air force to be effective in performing the primary roles of an air force? (Re, Operating in a conflict)


Ummmmmmmm, yeah...

To answer your original question…I say privatize the entire fighter operation. Could you do the same with the other fleets? Probably. Anyone not a pilot does not need to wear a military uniform to wrench on or support the fleet. Maybe pilots don’t have to be military either? You’re hired to fix planes or work in shops, that’s it. No nonsense like PARs, secondary duties, postings, whining about PLD/PPLD, etc. Let the open market decide on salaries and compensation. Staffing Bagotville shouldn’t be an issue. Cold lake could easily turn into a fly in fly out operation like most northern energy operations. Pay and compensate people enough, they will come and stay long term with the company. Civilian maintenance organizations with a military objective isn’t new.

Our current model clearly isn’t working, it’s a frog boiling in water. I honestly don’t know how we expect to stand up a new fighter fleet with the people we have. Again, do Canadians care enough to notice? I don’t think so, affordability is the real problem, not defence or security. I don’t hear much from PP on the issue either.

 

[Photopilot]

Blasphemy!!

They would just be Wings good sir, wings...

Bring back Groups?

 

[KevinB]

To answer your original question…I say privatize the entire fighter operation. Could you do the same with the other fleets? Probably. Anyone not a pilot does not need to wear a military uniform to wrench on or support the fleet. Maybe pilots don’t have to be military either? You’re hired to fix planes or work in shops, that’s it. No nonsense like PARs, secondary duties, postings, whining about PLD/PPLD, etc. Let the open market decide on salaries and compensation. Staffing Bagotville shouldn’t be an issue. Cold lake could easily turn into a fly in fly out operation like most northern energy operations. Pay and compensate people enough, they will come and stay long term with the company. Civilian maintenance organizations with a military objective isn’t new.

Our current model clearly isn’t working, it’s a frog boiling in water. I honestly don’t know how we expect to stand up a new fighter fleet with the people we have. Again, do Canadians care enough to notice? I don’t think so, affordability is the real problem, not defence or security. I don’t hear much from PP on the issue either.

I’m not sure if you’re joking or just clueless.

 

[Quirky]

I’m not sure if you’re joking or just clueless.

Tell me again why you need to be military to support fighter aircraft ops, especially for an irrelevant country like Canada?

 

[KevinB]

Tell me again why you need to be military to support fighter aircraft ops, especially for an irrelevant country like Canada?

You can’t order civilians into a combat area. Contractors would need to volunteer - which isn’t exactly a readiness highlight.

Canada may be relatively irrelevant currently, but that can change at the drop of a hat depending on world events.

 

[Quirky]

You can’t order civilians into a combat area. Contractors would need to volunteer - which isn’t exactly a readiness highlight.

Canada may be relatively irrelevant currently, but that can change at the drop of a hat depending on world events.

Throw enough money at contractors and you won’t have trouble finding people. RCAF pers typically want to deploy for one thing anyway - tax free salaries. I’ve seen civilian contractors increase steadily within the fighter fleet in all support areas, it won’t be long until they take over completely in first line roles. They already have their foot in the door.

 

[Good2Golf]

I’ve seen civilian contractors increase steadily within the fighter fleet in all support areas, it won’t be long until they take over completely in first line roles. They already have their foot in the door.

Are you implying Top Aces will act as the operational side the the RCAF’s future fighter force, with some kind of special dispensation to operate the F-35 as civilians?

 

[Quirky]

Are you implying Top Aces will act as the operational side the the RCAF’s future fighter force, with some kind of special dispensation to operate the F-35 as civilians?

I don’t know what Top Aces role is beyond acting as Red Air for training.

L3, however, is already heavily involved with our current fleet for third line maintenance and first-line support in various roles at squadrons. Other contractors have already taken over nearly completely for maintenance and overhaul of our engines. It used to be all RCAF personnel, now it’s just ex-RCAF personnel who were tired of the uniform.

Maybe the intent is to covert the CF-18 to all civilian during/after the F-35 squadrons are stood up? Sure seems like the direction it’s headed with the current manning levels. Finding pilots is going to be another issue…

 

[SupersonicMax]

I don’t know what Top Aces role is beyond acting as Red Air for training.

L3, however, is already heavily involved with our current fleet for third line maintenance and first-line support in various roles at squadrons. Other contractors have already taken over nearly completely for maintenance and overhaul of our engines. It used to be all RCAF personnel, now it’s just ex-RCAF personnel who were tired of the uniform.

Maybe the intent is to covert the CF-18 to all civilian during/after the F-35 squadrons are stood up? Sure seems like the direction it’s headed with the current manning levels. Finding pilots is going to be another issue…

Why you see more contractors in 1st line is to allow junior techs to learn from experienced techs. Not some plans for them to take over all maintenance.

 

[lenaitch]

Maybe pilots don’t have to be military either?

Seriously?

Outside of the Laws of Armed Conflict and the concept of Unlimited Liability, no ally would have anything to do with us again, including selling us most of their tech or allowing us anywhere near anywhere near their operations.

 

[Good2Golf]

Why you see more contractors in 1st line is to allow junior techs to learn from experienced techs. Not some plans for them to take over all maintenance.

Also seen temporarily with Boeing providing 1st-line for CH-147F pre-IOC, same functional role as SSM notes above. Doesn’t mean that the RCAF is heading to be completely civilianized Maint organization.

 

[Booter]

Canada may be relatively irrelevant currently, but that can change at the drop of a hat depending on world events.

It’s my stupid dumb guy opinion that the tech and materials and proficiencies etc today required to do the WWI and WW2 “jump start” because hostilities break out isn’t feasible. The old strategy of banding together and building capacity isn’t an option.

Canada will never be accidentally relevant again. If world events happen we will be told on twitter that we are working with our allies and ship a token force out. Even that token force needing someone else to be sufficient.

The Canadian public doesn’t care if we have war fighting abilities. If it was up to the average Canadian you would all be sartechs working on waterbombers.

If Canadians actually wanted more it would be an issue that gets government attention. But it isn’t- because it’s not.

 

[dimsum]

.

 

[dimsum]

To answer your original question…I say privatize the entire fighter operation. Could you do the same with the other fleets? Probably. Anyone not a pilot does not need to wear a military uniform to wrench on or support the fleet. Maybe pilots don’t have to be military either? You’re hired to fix planes or work in shops, that’s it. No nonsense like PARs, secondary duties, postings, whining about PLD/PPLD, etc. Let the open market decide on salaries and compensation. Staffing Bagotville shouldn’t be an issue. Cold lake could easily turn into a fly in fly out operation like most northern energy operations. Pay and compensate people enough, they will come and stay long term with the company. Civilian maintenance organizations with a military objective isn’t new.

Our current model clearly isn’t working, it’s a frog boiling in water. I honestly don’t know how we expect to stand up a new fighter fleet with the people we have. Again, do Canadians care enough to notice? I don’t think so, affordability is the real problem, not defence or security. I don’t hear much from PP on the issue either

Chuckles in Wagner

 

[dapaterson]

Chuckles in Wagner

Wagner doesn't scare Russian military leadership nearly as much as...

 

[daftandbarmy]

Chuckles in Wagner

I can see it now, and it will be spectacular.... briefly

 

[childs56]

To answer your original question…I say privatize the entire fighter operation. Could you do the same with the other fleets? Probably. Anyone not a pilot does not need to wear a military uniform to wrench on or support the fleet. Maybe pilots don’t have to be military either? You’re hired to fix planes or work in shops, that’s it. No nonsense like PARs, secondary duties, postings, whining about PLD/PPLD, etc. Let the open market decide on salaries and compensation. Staffing Bagotville shouldn’t be an issue. Cold lake could easily turn into a fly in fly out operation like most northern energy operations. Pay and compensate people enough, they will come and stay long term with the company. Civilian maintenance organizations with a military objective isn’t new.

Our current model clearly isn’t working, it’s a frog boiling in water. I honestly don’t know how we expect to stand up a new fighter fleet with the people we have. Again, do Canadians care enough to notice? I don’t think so, affordability is the real problem, not defence or security. I don’t hear much from PP on the issue either.

We talked about that back in 2007 when I got out. Cold Lake started loosing staff quicker then they could train them. We figured L3 would have taken over the Maintenance side in a couple of years. They were offering upwards of $100-150,000 year. Which would have been comparable and make a Tech think twice about jumping over to the Oilfield.
They could even work their Air Reserve better and offer some good money for experienced trained and Competent Techs to come back/ stay in. Pilots could also be all Reserve Pilots, Keep them flying until they age out or cant pass the physicals.

 

[Quirky]

Why you see more contractors in 1st line is to allow junior techs to learn from experienced techs. Not some plans for them to take over all maintenance.

First there was only a few FSRs, then they started adding contractor periodic lines, now they are there to assist with maintenance in units because we can’t retain experienced personnel. The pendulum seems to be swinging to having more contractors being responsible for various sections, not less.