CP-140 Aurora

[Kirkhill]

Morning CDN Aviator;

Just looking over this thread after seeing another screed from Coderre on CTV about the IMP jobs-for-life programme and got to wondering what your opinion is on the Bombardier Global Express - ASTOR system being fielded by the RAF.  It seems to be making an appearance in the discussions of late.  It seems to be something of a "high altitude long endurance" type more than a low level platform like the Aurora.  But perhaps the same could be said for the P-8.

Curiosity, as usual.

 

[GAP]

Liberals argue for upgrade of Aurora patrol planes
Updated Mon. Dec. 10 2007 1:11 PM ET The Canadian Press
Article Link

HALIFAX -- If upgrades to the air force's Aurora maritime patrol planes are stalled it could hurt the military's surveillance capabilities, the Liberal party's defence critic argued Monday.

In reaffirming the Liberals' position that there's plenty of life left in the nearly 30-year-old planes, Denis Coderre said surveillance on the East and West coasts, as well as in the Arctic, could be at risk.

"Those planes have a capacity to be perfect up to 2025,'' Coderre told a news conference, where he was joined by Nova Scotia MPs Geoff Regan, Scott Brison and Michael Savage.

"If we are replacing them ... and we're stalling those other (upgrades), you will have kind of a gap in some years when Canada won't be able to fulfil its own military duty. That's a problem in itself.''

The upgrades, started under the previous Liberal government, were put on hold in September on the Auroras, which are used also used to track submarines.

Defence Minister Peter MacKay was not available for comment, but defence sources have argued the air force could have new planes by the time the Aurora refit is completed in the 2012-13 time frame.

MacKay, who represents Nova Scotia in cabinet, said last month that the government is looking at the option of replacing the 18 Auroras, 14 of which are based in Greenwood, N.S.

An announcement on the aircraft's future is expected Dec. 18, almost one month after an earlier government deadline.

"We're asking the minister of defence to come clean to Nova Scotians and make sure that the future of the Auroras is sustained,'' said Coderre.

Coderre also argued that Ottawa has already spent more than $900 million to upgrade the planes and cancelling the project would cheat taxpayers. In 2005, the Liberals awarded two contracts totalling $961 million to Nova Scotia-based IMP Aerospace and L-3 Electronic Systems to upgrade the planes.

Some 2,000 jobs could be lost in Nova Scotia if the projects are called off, said Coderre.

Brison said the Liberals awarded the contracts because they provided the best value for taxpayers, security for the military and industrial benefits.

"Nothing has changed in terms of the benefits,'' said Brison, the party's industry critic.

"If in fact this decision is good for the taxpayer, or good for the region, or good for the Canadian Armed Forces, why doesn't the minister make the announcement now?''

The first two phases of the refurbishment upgraded the navigation, global positioning and radar systems of the aircraft.

The next two stages would improve the planes' data management system, sensors such as imaging radar, and offer protection against surface-to-air missiles.
More on link

 

[aesop081]

IMP jobs-for-life programme

I couldnt have said it better myself.

and got to wondering what your opinion is on the Bombardier Global Express - ASTOR system being fielded by the RAF. seems to be something of a "high altitude long endurance" type more than a low level platform like the Aurora. 

Sentinel R1 / ASTOR is a battlefield surveillance aircraft like the E-8 JSTAR.  It is NOT an MPA.  The whole ASTOR system depends on tactical level and operational level ground stations for analysis of sensor data. It does not carry weapons usable in the maritime environment. To get its 9-hour endurance, the Sentinel R1 must operate at 40 000 feet and thus, cannot make visual identification of contacts.

It is NOT and SHOULD NOT be considered as a CP-140 replacement.

 

[aesop081]

In reaffirming the Liberals' position that there's plenty of life left in the nearly 30-year-old planes,

I'm sure he's never been in one or has ever seen the issues we have to deal with when it comes to keeping them flying.

"Those planes have a capacity to be perfect up to 2025,'' Coderre told a news conference, where he was joined by Nova Scotia MPs Geoff Regan, Scott Brison and Michael Savage.

That should have read " those planes have the capacity to keep IMP busy until 2025"

The upgrades, started under the previous Liberal government, were put on hold in September on the Auroras, which are used also used to track submarines.

The CP-140 was designed for ASW.

MacKay, who represents Nova Scotia in cabinet, said last month that the government is looking at the option of replacing the 18 Auroras, 14 of which are based in Greenwood, N.S.

Nice to see that the MSM finaly got the numbers right

"We're asking the minister of defence to come clean to Nova Scotians and make sure that the future of the Auroras is sustained,'' said Coderre.

Its the future of the capability we should be worried about, not the future of the Aurora itself.  The CP-140 is near the end of its life.  Lets figure out how what comes next now.

Coderre also argued that Ottawa has already spent more than $900 million to upgrade the planes and cancelling the project would cheat taxpayers.

The Liberals should STFU there.  It cost the taxpayers $500 million to cancel the EH-101 deal and we still had to pay for the CH-148 and 149 after that......Pot, kettle, black.

Some 2,000 jobs could be lost in Nova Scotia if the projects are called off, said Coderre.

Make no mistake, this is all that its about.  The oposition couldnt give two shakes about anything else.

The first two phases of the refurbishment upgraded ................... radar systems of the aircraft.

What radar ? Have i been asleep the day they installed something to replace my APS-506 radar ?

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

"If in fact this decision is good for the taxpayer, or good for the region, or good for the Canadian Armed Forces, why doesn't the minister make the announcement now?''

In order, in case there is any confusion about where Coderre's, Brison's, et.al. priorities lie ...

 

[Haletown]

so it's IMP jobs for life vs getting proper, safe equipment that will allow the CF to perform their Operational missions ??

Good move Coderre, good move.  Maybe it could be arranged for him to spend a month with a Maintenance team trying to keep the current fleet airborne.

 

[Northernguardian]

Excellent comments by all.

As usual, Coderre has no idea what he is talking about. If he took his job seriously he would educate himself by reading the numerous reports detailing the serious support issues involving the CP140. The cost of ASLEP and the bulkhead repair (which should be done) along with the rest of AIMP would likely add up to 2+ billion and probably take until 2020 to complete as IMP is one of the most inept aerospace companies on the planet. They've NEVER completed any project on time. If they had performed AIMP according to the original schedule, it would be done by now. Instead, we began true Block II production this year. The four prototypes done so far are incomplete, in fact 105 is back at IMP for "retrofits."

There are so many issues with the CP140...a big one seldom discussed is sparing. When the USN ceases flying them industrial support will dwindle away. Few companies will keep production lines open to support less than 100 aircraft worldwide. Getting parts for these old planes is a nightmare already, just imagine what it would be like in 2024 if we kept them. Such logistical considerations are impossible for the likes of  Coderre to fathom. He is not interested in the LRP fleet or the CF. He is only interested in taking cheap political shots. Lets not forget that IMP and the Liberals have crawled into bed before and done very nasty things (cormorant maint contract) to the air force.

A dozen P-8s is my preferred option. Yeah, I know P-8s are big $$$, but we need a viable ASW replacement, and the P-8 would also be an outstanding ISR (esp. overland) asset. My fear is that we will buy these Bombardier "business jets" (votes in Quebec?). Cdn Aviator was right on the mark with his comments about ASTOR. ASW must continue be preserved as a core capability.

I've read that by 2010 China will have more subs in the water than the US. 

 

[aesop081]

and the bulkhead repair (which should be done)

That one truely worries me. I was shocked at the "just keep inspecting it" solution. Its the second time something cracks ( rememeber the stiffener cracks on the main wing spar). When i go flying i always,always check the AMRS for the last time the bulkhead was inspected. Combine that with the fleet-wide grounding we had a week or so ago ......

Good times.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Northernguardian: Another approach:

A civilian maritime patrol aircraft fleet?
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/11/civilian-maritime-patrol-aircraft-fleet.html

More:

Really hot aircraft news
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/10/really-hot-aircraft-news.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[aesop081]

A civilian maritime patrol aircraft fleet?
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/11/civilian-maritime-patrol-aircraft-fleet.html

Mark,

I dont know how many more times i am going to have to say this to you.  We are already using a Civilian system for maritime patrolling. Its called Provincial Aerospace.  The patrol on behalf of several clients withing the GoC ( DFO, RCMP, etc......) and their information gets fed into the system to develop the RMP.

What the Aurora does cannot be done by Civilians and THAT needs to be replaced by a MILITARY aircraft operated by MILITARY crews.

 

[observor 69]

Mark,

I dont know how many more times i am going to have to say this to you.  We are already using a Civilian system for maritime patrolling. Its called Provincial Aerospace.  The patrol on behalf of several clients withing the GoC ( DFO, RCMP, etc......) and their information gets fed into the system to develop the RMP.

What the Aurora does cannot be done by Civilians and THAT needs to be replaced by a MILITARY aircraft operated by MILITARY crews.

Hey betcha aren't a  " ISO9000:2000 registered surveillance operator."  Provincial Aerospace is.  ;D

 

[aesop081]

Hey betcha aren't a  " ISO9000:2000 registered surveillance operator."  Provincial Aerospace is.  ;D

And i have no desire to be as the pay is much lower than what i make now.

 

[HDE]

There's irony in Liberals and NDP trying to redo themselves as the people fighting to get good equipment for the troops.  It appears Coderre and Black are trying to rewrite history. :

 

[geo]

It's the opposition's job to hammer the government in power over what it is they aren't doing.... Same aas the conservatives did before.... That's their job... no matter how self serving it might appear to be.  When you're in the opposition's seat, money is no object.

 

[MarkOttawa]

CDN Aviator: If you read my posts you might see that I make your points in many respects.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[aesop081]

CDN Aviator: If you read my posts you might see that I make your points in many respects.

Mark
Ottawa

I'm sorry but your "posts" are simply links to a blog that may or may not be yours.  How about you make your position here by posting it yourself like we all do.

 

[MarkOttawa]

CDN Aviator: I am a contributor to the blog.  Since you insist here are the full, lengthy, texts without the internal links:

1)  A civilian maritime patrol aircraft fleet? (Nov. 30)

But first Denis Coderre, scandal seeker, aircraft expert, and guardian of the public purse:

    'The federal Liberals want the auditor general to look into the future of the air force’s Aurora maritime patrol planes, a move which puts a local political squeeze on Defence Minister Peter MacKay.

    The Liberals have written to Auditor General Sheila Fraser calling for an investigation in to the suspension of a multi-year upgrade contract on the nearly 30-year-old surveillance aircraft.

    At the same time, Nova Scotia Premier Rodney MacDonald expressed concern that the refit of the CP-140s won’t proceed and promised to lobby Ottawa "aggressively" to ensure the multimillion-dollar contract with Halifax-based IMP Aerospace continues.

    MacKay, who represents Nova Scotia in the federal cabinet, testified before the House of Commons defence committee Wednesday that no decision had been made.

    He conceded publicly for the first time that the Defence Department is looking at the possibility of buying new patrol planes [emphasis added] to monitor the East and West Coasts, as well as the Arctic.

    "We’re looking at a number of options, which include looking at the purchase — eventually — of a replacement aircraft to provide that capability," he said.

    The department has postponed a decision on whether to continue with the major improvements to its fleet of 18 CP-140s until after Parliament rises for the Christmas holidays.

    Earlier this week, critics lambasted the deferral, calling it an attempt to bury what’s expected to be a bad news announcement for MacKay.

    MacDonald says the upgrades are crucial to the province’s aerospace industry and has already met with MacKay to discuss the future of the Auroras.

    "It’s very important to employment. We have good-paying, solid jobs," he said Wednesday in Halifax.

    "The federal government has a good aircraft there and it’s my hope and we’ll be pushing forward aggressively to ensure that continues."

    Liberal defence critic Denis Coderre said he believes the CP-140 still has a lot of life left in it and his party will oppose replacing the 1980s-vintage four-engine planes.

    The refit, started under the Liberals, was supposed to keep the Auroras flying until 2025, but defence sources argue that by the time it’s done in the 2012-13 time frame, the air force could have brand new planes.

    The air force has received new heavy-lift C-17s and will receive new medium-sized C-130J cargo planes, fixed-wing search and rescue planes, as well as navy and battlefield helicopters, said Coderre.

    "I believe the time has come to think about taxpayers’ money," said Coderre about the nearly $20 billion in spending.

    "I truly believe those planes (CP-140s) are working. They are working very, very well.

    "Instead of flipping through the catalogue and saying what’s the best thing we can have, then I guess the time has come to proceed with the upgrade."

    The Auroras have already received an improved navigation system, global positioning systems and better radar under the first two phases of the refurbishment.

    The next two phases, which are now on hold, would have given the aircraft better data management system, sensors — such as imaging radar — and protection against surface-to-air missiles. Companies, including IMP Aerospace, were preparing for the next round when the project was put in limbo in September.'

A thought: why not separate general maritime, and arctic, surveillance duties (including vessel identification, pollution detection, fishery enforcement) and part of marine search and rescue from the Air Force and make them a civilian mission? As Transport Canada is already doing for pollution detection with a modified Bombardier Q Series.

Fisheries and Oceans meanwhile contracts with Provincial Airlines for three Beach King Air 200s for maritime surveillance, two east, one west coast (Aurora work for DFO also noted at link).

In fact Q Series, modified by Field Aviation, are used in the general maritime role by Iceland (eight hour endurance), the US, Sweden, Japan and Australia.

Transport Canada could well operate such a fleet (despite their effort to become mainly a non-operational agency) on behalf of Fisheries and Oceans, Canadian Coast Guard, Environment Canada, CBSA/RCMP, CF as required, and others.

The Air Force would then presumably need fewer maritime patrol planes (whether Auroras or replacement) that would concentrate on military missions such as ASW and armed interdiction (and terrestrial surveillance, e.g. Afstan?).

And, if the Field Aviation Bombardiers actually fit the bill for such a broad suite of missions as outlined above, acquiring them would be a political plus I would imagine.

Some UAVs would also come in handy for maritime/arctic missions (operated by the Air Force for both military and civilian missions).

2) Really hot aircraft news (Oct. 31)

The Air Force is beginning to plan for a replacement for the Auroras circa 2016. Thank goodness (though I think most people would be shocked to hear it described as a "spy plane"--maybe that's the headline writer's intent):

    'The Canadian military is laying the groundwork for a multi-billion-dollar purchase of a new surveillance plane to patrol the country's coastlines and replace the existing Aurora aircraft fleet, which is facing structural problems.

    Among the options that could be considered is a U.S. military aircraft based on the Boeing 737 passenger jet, but outfitted with sensors, as well as a Bombardier Global Express jet equipped with surveillance gear.

    The air force had intended to keep its CP-140 Auroras flying until 2025, but the service is now rethinking those plans and wants a new multi-mission aircraft ready in nine years when it retires its aging surveillance planes.

    The Auroras were purchased in the early 1980s to conduct anti-submarine patrols and maritime surveillance. The 18 planes operate at bases on the East and West coasts and are considered vital for watching over the country's maritime approaches.

    The air force's current strategy is to continue using the Aurora until a new aircraft is purchased. Military officials say the service is in the early stages of the process and needs to assemble a team to look at the basic requirements for a new plane.

    "It's all very early in the conceptual stage right now," said air force spokesman Capt. Jim Hutcheson. "They haven't got to looking at options yet."

    Military planners, however, have asked for information regarding the U.S. navy's Poseidon maritime aircraft. The plane, a 737 converted into a surveillance aircraft, is the U.S. navy's successor to its version of the Aurora.

    Canadian officials have also asked for details on the ASTOR surveillance aircraft project under way for Britain's military. That aircraft uses the smaller Bombardier Global Express jet and is designed for providing surveillance of ground targets...

    The initial search for a replacement plane comes as the military is conducting inspections on the 26-year-old Auroras to detect and repair possible structural damage, particularly in the wing area. The inspections were started as a precautionary measure because of warnings from the U.S. navy, which operates a similar fleet.

    The Canadian Forces has already spent $900 million in upgrading navigation and radio equipment for its Auroras, but is reconsidering whether it should spend any more money to install new sensors and computers. It will decide on or before Nov. 20 on how to proceed on the upgrade program.

    An earlier plan to spend $500 million for new structural components for the Auroras is also in question. That project would have dealt with the aircraft's wings, which several studies show have been "accumulating fatigue damage" at a rate faster than anticipated.

    "The current thinking is that it would make more sense to proceed with an Aurora replacement in the 2016 timeframe and that's why we are thinking about not proceeding with the full range of upgrades, both mechanical and avionics and equipment," Capt. Hutcheson said.

    No price tag has been set for a new aircraft, but defence industry officials say such a program is expected to cost several billion dollars.'

More at Milnet.ca.

Of course the Bombardier would have to be massively and expensively reconfigured for the maritime patrol role [along with other problems, Dec. 10 update]. And I suppose the existing maritime patrol version of Bombardier's Q series turboprops doesn't have the range for the Air Force's needs . But it might be fine for the civilian missions the Auroras fly, mainly in support of the Canadian Coast Guard, such as fisheries patrol. In fact I would argue that there should be a fleet of such aircraft dedicated to civilian missions (e.g. also ship pollution inspection, vessel identification) with the Air Force doing only what is truly military--UAVs could also do much of the civilian work. But no service wants to give up missions and the equipment and personnel slots that go with them (e.g. the Air Force doing the air role for search and rescue).

Update: More on the Bombardier Global Express airframe as a possible Aurora replacement (h/t to Jack MacLeod). And more on the fixed-wing SAR replacement.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Loachman]

One of the problems with these mixed-fleet proposals is that we need a certain minimum number of aircraft in order to do the full-blown military mission in times of conflict. For the Aurora, this was detecting, tracking, and potentially attacking Godless Communist Horde submarines during the Cold War and possible warmer follow-on.

When not engaged in their primary role, such aircraft can conduct lesser missions, such as fishery patrols and pollution violations.

Aircraft designed purely for those lesser missions cannot, however, detect, track, and kill GCH submarines when the need arises - and should conflict flare up, nobody cares about fish and pollution anymore.

One therefore ends up with two fleets and a higher overall cost, as one still needs that certain minimum number of fully-capable aircraft, now under-employed in peacetime, and has a bunch of unnecessary lesser aircraft buzzing around, too.

There is a big difference between cost-effectiveness and operational effectiveness and, in any military organization, the latter is, and has to be, trump.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Finally, someone gets it.

Loachman, take a bow.

 

[Loachman]

It cost the taxpayers $500 million to cancel the EH-101 deal and we still had to pay for the CH-148 and 149 after that......Pot, kettle, black.

That was just the contract cancellation penalty. Everybody forgets about the $800,000,000 spent on the programme up to the point of cancellation, for a total of $1.3 billion to buy no helicopters.