Designated Marksman

[PPCLI Guy]

PPCLI Guy -- I think your meaning AR10T for the DM's (the 7.62mm Big Brother to the AR15/C7).
  Good to hear about the splitting of the basic course.

Right you are - I ain't a gun guy, and was pretty sure I was getting it wrong...

 

[Shamrok]

Maybe I'm a little behind the times here but I just found an article on the CF possibly adopting the Designated Marksman role to fill the gap between the standard Infanteer and the speciality of a Sniper role. If this was to happen what would see as being adopted as a Designated Marksman Rifle?

Personally I would want something along the lines of the Brit's new L129A1. Just my 2 Cents.

 

[aesop081]

Personally I would want something along the lines of the Brit's new L129A1. Just my 2 Cents.

You are basing this on what ? What is your reasoning for this choice ?

 

[Shamrok]

You are basing this on what ? What is your reasoning for this choice ?

A friend of mine swears by his LMT LM308 which is the base platform for the rifle. There are only a couple of differences between the Civilian and Military versions and they are mostly cosmetic. He has put about 5000 rounds through his and has never had single stoppage and has taken it out and beaten the S$#@ out of it and still has not had a problem internally. From his personal experience as well as the positive reviews from mainstream firearms based media has led to reasoning for this choice.

 

[Lerch]

I thought the CF had an AR10 variant for the DM role.

 

[PuckChaser]

I thought the CF had an AR10 variant for the DM role.

Sniper teams had them when I deployed in 2007, I didn't think it was issued down to the individual sections though.

 

[BDTyre]

A good friend of mine was one of two DMs in his platoon on 3-09. If I recall correctly, he was taught the C3 in the off chance it was issued, but once in theatre I believe both he and the other DM were given C7s (I don't think they were even heavy-barrelled) with Harris bipods and Leupold scopes.

The US, at that pointed had re-introduced the M14 (in a highly modified form) and faced such shortages they even began buying back from civies.

 

[Illegio]

Back in 1-08, the company-level sharpshooter had an AR-10, and the platoon sharpshooters had the C7CT.

There's a thread kicking around from a while ago talking about just such a topic. The sniper community is still waiting for their gas gun, and even money says that whatever that rifle turns out to be, the same rifle will be adopted for the DM role back in the companies, probably with a different optic.

So as for what rifle, it will be a semi-auto 7.62mm. Beyond that, who really cares so long as it does the job.

 

[MikeL]

The US, at that pointed had re-introduced the M14 (in a highly modified form) and faced such shortages they even began buying back from civies.

The M14/EBR I believe was brought into service in the last couple years, but the M14(non EBR) was brought in as a DMR years ago during the early phases of OIF/OEF.  As well other DM Rifles have been in use in both the US Army and USMC.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Marine_Corps_Squad_Advanced_Marksman_Rifle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Squad_Designated_Marksman_Rifle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marine_Corps_Designated_Marksman_Rifle
http://www.military.com/news/article/2008/new-lease-on-life-for-the-beloved-m14.html

 

[BDTyre]

Thanks for the clarification. I just remember seeing a lot more of the EBR style ones in the second half of the tour.

 

[Dissident]

After looking at a few threads about this topic, I pick this one to bump.

There was, I am told, a program to generate some Sharp Shooters (SS).

What, if anything, is happening with this initiative?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Military Police, Eh! Boy, I would not want to go to trial based on your case notes if that's you level of factual precision.  [

"There was, ..."  When! A year ago, five years ago, ten years ago ??

"... I am told ..."  By whom, Your Chain of command, your bunkmate, a guy you watched over in the drunk tank ???

"... generate some Sharp Shooters ..."  What, pray tell is a Sharp Shooter? A sniper, a mid-way between ordinary soldier shooting quals and a sniper, a qualification level in shooting (you get a badge?) or just a program to teach shooting at a higher level ???

A few particulars to your post may generate better (any) answer.

 

[Underway]

Has there been any thought or analysis given in Canada regarding a Designated Marksman or "Sharpshooter" being added to the section or platoon organization?  There are a number of countries that use designated marksmen and find it useful to have a heavier rifle integrated into each section.  Is this something we should look at or is our recent experience pointing us at in a direction that this isn't really required.

 

[LightFighter]

Probably not until the next war we get into.

I’m sure there’s papers/articles/AARs from Afghanistan regarding them, but they aren’t something we currently have in the battalions.  We are getting back a couple roles/skill sets into the battalions(Cbt Sp not Rifle Coy) though.  Maybe the next thing we will see is DMs brought back, although filling those positions in each platoon will be a challenge(manning wise).

 

[devil39]

We had DM in my rifle coy in '02, and even got C3 issued.  Recce Pl and the Sniper Union were quite upset, as usual   Apparently bolt action rifles and scopes were thought to be too complicated for a Rifle Coy.  Pretty sure the recommendation made it into the Lessons Learned documents.  Don't think it has ever made it to doctrinal change though, but makes great sense for overwatch and offset from fire base...etc.

 

[Underway]

We had DM in my rifle coy in '02, and even got C3 issued.  Recce Pl and the Sniper Union were quite upset, as usual   Apparently bolt action rifles and scopes were thought to be too complicated for a Rifle Coy.  Pretty sure the recommendation made it into the Lessons Learned documents.  Don't think it has ever made it to doctrinal change though, but makes great sense for overwatch and offset from fire base...etc.

It seems like it would provide more punch to the section from a heavier round as well as provide accurate fire from the 250-700m range.  It's pretty clear that a designated marksman isn't a sniper what with regards to role and how they function in a section.

Why a bolt action instead of something that was closer to say an M14.  Or any semi auto rifle with a clip, 7.62mm.  Perhaps because it was what was in the inventory?  Bolt action just doesn't seem that useful for close in fighting.

 

[devil39]

It seems like it would provide more punch to the section from a heavier round as well as provide accurate fire from the 250-700m range.  It's pretty clear that a designated marksman isn't a sniper what with regards to role and how they function in a section.

Why a bolt action instead of something that was closer to say an M14.  Or any semi auto rifle with a clip, 7.62mm.  Perhaps because it was what was in the inventory?  Bolt action just doesn't seem that useful for close in fighting.

It was an inventory thing.  We had brought some with us from Winnipeg I seem to recall.  M25 or US Marine DMR would be preferable.

 

[LightFighter]

We had the C7CT(?) for Designated Marksman in Afghanistan, not sure which year they came out though or how many were/are in the system.  I don’t recall if there were AR10s for the Marksman to use, or if they were only for the Snipers.

 

[mariomike]

Has there been any thought or analysis given in Canada regarding a Designated Marksman or "Sharpshooter" being added to the section or platoon organization? 

What, pray tell is a Sharp Shooter? A sniper, a mid-way between ordinary soldier shooting quals and a sniper, a qualification level in shooting (you get a badge?) or just a program to teach shooting at a higher level ???

See also,

Designated Marksman
https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&q=site:army.ca+%22designated+marksman%22&spell=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjpgpmQibPYAhUIzIMKHe5eD38QBQgmKAA&biw=1280&bih=603

 

[daftandbarmy]

Has there been any thought or analysis given in Canada regarding a Designated Marksman or "Sharpshooter" being added to the section or platoon organization?  There are a number of countries that use designated marksmen and find it useful to have a heavier rifle integrated into each section.  Is this something we should look at or is our recent experience pointing us at in a direction that this isn't really required.

If you want an operational role for the reserves, this would be it IMHO vs mortar/ pioneer etc etc.

We all have  access to ranges and rifles and, with the right support, the correct field craft and other technical training.