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Destroyer Replacement Program

Temporary Carriers

Such was the need to transport and operate aircraft in the Falklands, the Ministry of Defence requisitioned many merchant ships. Whilst some were converted to hospital ships or troop carriers several were converted into basic aircraft carriers. The container ship Atlantic Convoyer was one such vessel. She had been laid up on the River Mersey but she and her sister ship Atlantic Causeway were taken to Devonport where they were hurriedly converted into 'harrier carriers'. However, the Atlantic Convoyer was one of the more unfortunate participants of the war. On May 25th she was struck by an exocet missile and was immediately evacuated as fire spread through the ship. Together with her loss was the destruction of 3 Chinook and six Wessex helicopters and the tragic deaths of 12 men, including several from the merchant navy. Other Royal Navy ships had some aircraft capability including the helicopter support ship RFA Engadine and the Assault ships Fearless and Intrepid ,which at one point during the campaign both successfully landed Sea Harriers on their helicopter flight decks.

http://www.btinternet.com/~warship/Feature/falk.htm

The problem with all commercial grade ships being press ganged into Navy service is that - they are commercial grade & not Milspec.
As was figured out the hard way with the Atlantic Convoyer, once hit by an Exocet missile, it's fate was sealed..........without milspec damage controls, the ship was just one big coffin.
 
I was looking around on some stuff about Ex-Dragoon's idea for a container ship based support ship and I stumbled across this interesting tidbit on the Canadian National Research Council website.  It's dated late 2005, but I believe it holds some relevance here.  It mainly talks about repealing the Jones Act which (apparently) prevents the sale of Canadian made commercial sea going vessels to American commercial interests.  But why I think this is of interest here is of an interesting little proposal at the end, and forgive me if this has already been talked about:

QUOTE:

The greatest potential market for Canadian shipyards remains the US domestic market, which has a very large demand for new workboats of all types, including tugs, towboats, barges, ferries and patrol craft. With Canadian labour rates at about 60% of their US counterparts, shipyards on both the east and west coasts could be extremely competitive. The problem at present is of course access to this market. As discussed previously, Canadian negotiators at NAFTA relinquished all rights to this potential market. What is needed is a viable strategy to gain access to this huge market, but it is obvious that something must be traded off for this access.

The paper's recommended approach is to trade all future Canadian warship-building requirements to the USA, in exchange for a relaxation of the Jones Act for Canadian commercial shipbuilders.

This would appear to be a win-win situation. At present Canada has no military shipbuilding capability. Further, our demand is so low as to make the periodic resurrection of this capability economically impractical. As our military capabilities and our total maritime defense are so intrinsically intertwined with those of the USA, it seems to make great sense in terms of commonality and compatibility to purchase all our future warship requirements from US builders who have a very large maritime defense industry complex. In contrast, the small number and capacity of Canadian commercial shipyards represent a very limited threat to US commercial builders, but access to that market would provide significant opportunities for our shipyards.

http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/clusters/ocean/trm/section3a_iii_e.html

I thought this would interesting food for thought, and a pretty strong endorsement for the production of a new series of Arleigh Burke type craft using American shipyards.  The insistence on a made in Canada approach for some of these ships seems shortsighted (hopefully I'm correct in this assumption, as it's only a general impression I got from reading this thread).  Myself, I would throw in for this type of production as it may cut down wait times and planning costs, despite some of the intangible "Canadianization" costs.
 
Although folks in the TASER thread aren't happy with Senator Kenny I think this is a good article and exactly what is needed in Canada

   

Published: 2007-12-04
Boosting shipbuilding makes sense


By COLIN KENNY


The Canadian government is going to require well over a hundred new ships over the next quarter century to take care of some critical assignments overseas and along Canada’s coasts.

We need a national strategy to ensure that we have a viable shipbuilding industry. Formulating that strategy is going to be essential to Canadians’ maritime security and vital to Canada’s economy. Parliament should legislate a plan and develop institutional support for this strategy.

There are good reasons for the government to continue to build the ships it needs in Canada. But it must come up with a system that is less hit-and-miss than what we have now to ensure that we retain the resources to build those ships.

In the past, the federal government’s need for new ships has never been sufficient to guarantee anything more than sporadic employment at shipyards in Atlantic Canada, Quebec and British Columbia.

That has created a stuttering industry, with shipyards and their employees never sure whether it was worth it to develop their skills and devote their lives toward the end of building first-class ships.

We need a shipbuilding industry that hums rather than stutters. By my count, Canada is going to need something like 133 new vessels of a significant size over the next 25 years, plus refits.

The Department of National Defence is probably going to need at least 45 ships, including the modernization of 12 frigates and their future replacement, as well as four new destroyers, eight Arctic/offshore patrol vessels, and refits for four submarines.

The Department of Fisheries and Oceans is going to require at least 83 vessels, including nine icebreakers, 15 medium endurance and offshore patrol vessels, and 42 Search and Rescue lifeboats. Transport Canada will need three Marine Atlantic ferries.

That represents a lot of champagne bottles bursting over new bows. There is enough critical mass to restore Canadian shipyards in both Eastern and Western Canada to viable, continuous operations.

Good economic opportunities are vital to the survival of any sovereign state. The Canadian manufacturing sector has taken a huge hit in recent years because of fierce foreign competition and the ascent of the Canadian dollar. A secure shipbuilding industry could play a big part in Canada’s economic future.

Canada is in bad need of ships – new ships and refitted ships. The world is becoming an increasingly volatile place. No country can be absolutely confident that these kinds of needs will be met in foreign shipyards, especially if war were to break out.

If the Canadian government were to institute a continuous shipbuilding program, there would, of course, have to be safeguards on costs. No country can afford to pay double, or even a 50 per cent premium, for Canadian content on such major purchases.

But Canadian shipyards are no longer out of line on costs. While they can’t compete with developing countries on basic metal-bending, modern shipbuilding requires producing modules that incorporate electronics and other complex components. Canadian shipyards can do this as well as anyone.

To assure reasonable pricing, it wouldn’t be that difficult to set up a regulatory authority, similar to the National Energy Board or the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, to ensure fair pricing. Such an authority could hold hearings to ensure that Canadian taxpayers weren’t getting gouged on contracts.

How could the Canadian shipping industry be confident that the next government that came along wouldn’t pull the rug out from under a 30-year plan for shipbuilding that was designed in some earlier Parliament?

First, contracts could be signed so major firms would be guaranteed work on a long-term basis, contingent on regular audits. Those contracts should require major shipbuilding yards to subcontract some percentage of that work to smaller yards, to assure broad capacity in the industry.

This plan would have such economic and political benefits that any succeeding government would meddle with it at its peril.

Essentially, the government would be allowing monopolies in the interests of Canadian security, as it does with pipelines and power companies. This has been a standard model that governments have been using for essential utilities for more than a century.

Profits would still be good if the government created a monopoly structure for shipbuilding, but not as good as they would be if marketplace risk were involved. That’s the trade-off, but it would be a good one for both the industry and Canadians.

Such a grand plan might be of great economic and strategic value to Canadians. It would assure that Canadians will have the navy and coast guard that we need. It would be founded on a regulatory regime that would satisfy the auditor general.

It has become increasingly apparent that the federal government is going to have to pay close attention to ensuring Canada’s economic survival, and Canada’s physical survival.

The shipbuilding industry would be a good place to start.

Senator Colin Kenny is chair of the Senate committee on national security and defence.


 

© 2007 The Halifax Herald Limited
 
At present Canada has no military shipbuilding capability. Further, our demand is so low as to make the periodic resurrection of this capability economically impractical. As our military capabilities and our total maritime defense are so intrinsically intertwined with those of the USA, it seems to make great sense in terms of commonality and compatibility to purchase all our future warship requirements from US builders who have a very large maritime defense industry complex. In contrast, the small number and capacity of Canadian commercial shipyards represent a very limited threat to US commercial builders, but access to that market would provide significant opportunities for our shipyards.

The problem with this statement has to do with the fact that we always go for a "Famine to feast to famine" building program.
If it was known that we would build a new frigate every other year... all the time - and schedule minor refits OR major refits in the middle years, shipyards WOULD prosper, Naval architects and engineers would have a future in Canada.
 
The problem with this statement has to do with the fact that we always go for a "Famine to feast to famine" building program.

While this is true, I have to agree with the reports general idea that we trade off our admittedly sporadic Fleet building programs to a military shipbuilding complex that is more robust, and in exchange, give those Naval architects and engineers free reign to build commercial vessels for a market that was previously off limits to them.  I think a healthy commercial ship building industry is just as helpful, or even more so, than betting on Canada's fickle (over subsequent governments) Defense spending programs.
 
Just a thought, to my knowledge most of Canada's military shipbuilding has been for local needs.  Has any thought been given to catering mostly for the foreign market, particularly rapidly modernizing navies like India etc.  Canada will most likely always have a small navy (hopefully not as small as it is at present though), so depending solely on local needs to keep shipyards running and to retain skills is unrealistic.  At the same time however, I find the suggestion of a historically maritime nation such as Canada, with the world's longest coastline spanning three oceans, completely scrapping all military shipbuilding capability unacceptable.

Canada has a history of innovation and ingenuity in the maritime sphere so it's not unfathomable for it to become a major player in the international warship market, from patrol boats to frigates.  Developing this export capacity won't happen overnight but I think the present and future governments should place priority on helping Canadian industry develop this capacity.  British companies like VT make most of their revenue from the export rather than the domestic market.  Canada this route would help to retain skills when the domestic need arises.
 
Cameron,
When we built the Frigates, there was an attempt to interest foreign countries in the design.
Attempts were made to interest the gulf states.... didn't work
 
geo said:
Cameron,
When we built the Frigates, there was an attempt to interest foreign countries in the design.
Attempts were made to interest the gulf states.... didn't work

Because the laFayette came out at the same time and the French offered more incentives and our shipyards wanted all Halifax classes built in Canada...so says one of my XOs who was involved in the CPF project at the time.
 
Because the laFayette came out at the same time and the French offered more incentives and our shipyards wanted all Halifax classes built in Canada...so says one of my XOs who was involved in the CPF project at the time.

Seems like a clear case of shooting ourselves in the foot back then.  Licensing production to other shipyards will still give our ship-building industry added side benefit, mainly seeing a lot of engineering muscle come out of Canada.  But looking at the Lafayette vs the Halifax, it looks like the Lafayette is the more modern vessel (and it is, seeing as the last Halifax was commissioned in 1996, and the first Lafayette was that same year).  It would be hard to deny the appeal of the Lafayette, especially when incentives and considerations are taken into account.  These are the difficulties we face when exporting unless we get our act together and produce a competitive product that other countries would consider, and not handcuff them to being made only in Canada.  I'm sure this would offset engineering costs, and then (hopefully) get Canada into the habit of producing a regular Destroyer / Frigate replacement program... so we don't have to make it so unusual and scary every time some of our equipment needs to be replaced or refit.
 
Capability wise Halifax class outshines LaFayette each time, been on exercise with a couple of them and they do not have as good sea handling characteristics and for a supposed stealth vessel, well I won't get into that.... ;)
 
Capability wise Halifax class outshines LaFayette each time, been on exercise with a couple of them and they do not have as good sea handling characteristics and for a supposed stealth vessel, well I won't get into that.... Wink

And you see... this is where experience comes in handy, you can look at specs, and see how 'cool' it looks with all that stealth design and such, but if in actuality it handles like a drunk pig, and can't properly track targets 50 meters away...then yeah it makes a difference! :p

Myself, I can't wait to have the experience that would allow me to say "Yeah, these 'name vessel here' are unmitigated crap".
 
Point taken geo but that experience should be a learning one, and like the other guys noted farming out some of the work makes more sense in terms of attracting potential buyers and creating opportunities for Canadian engineers overseas (consultancy etc.).

P.S. Interesting point about the Halifax vs. the Lafayette.  Brings to mind a question i've been meaning to ask for awhile, in exercises how does the Halifax stack up against the RN's type 23's (Please guys I don't want a flame war, just some facts).
 
I doubt you will find unbiased opinions in here.  Lets be honest if I was on the frenchnavytalk.com website, I am sure I would find that they feel their Frigate is superior to the CPF..

 
Dolphin_Hunter said:
I doubt you will find unbiased opinions in here.  Lets be honest if I was on the frenchnavytalk.com website, I am sure I would find that they feel their Frigate is superior to the CPF..

Nice to see how dismissive you are of other peoples experience... ::)

P.S. Interesting point about the Halifax vs. the Lafayette.  Brings to mind a question i've been meaning to ask for awhile, in exercises how does the Halifax stack up against the RN's type 23's (Please guys I don't want a flame war, just some facts).
Nice ships...although my preference runs towards F123/F124/F100s :D
 
Ex-Dragoon said:
Nice to see how dismissive you are of other peoples experience... ::)

The Halifax class is a decent ship, sure some of the technology on board is dated but they right up there with the top Frigates in the world.  I am not dismissing any personal experiences that anyone has had with the Lafayette.  I have never sailed on the Lafayette so I can't say much about what they have, what they do and how they handle.  The Lafayette frigate does appeal to many people, if it didn't it would not be in service around the globe, so its manufacturer must be doing something right.  Overall it can't be that bad of a ship design.

The Radar signature of a Lafayette should be (in theory) smaller than that of the CPF, but as for stealth... Not a chance, leave the stealth to the experts, the Swedish Submariners.

 
At the time the Halifax came out, the Canadian press did a real hatchet job on the ship's construction and how some sort of cavitation sound was doubling or trebling it's radar/sonar signature.  Methinks the media had it's fieldday at our expense AND certainly did not help our efforts to sell the Frigates overseas.
 
Typical case of some sectors of the Canadian press doing their best to undermine the CF for the sake of headlines.  Good news is no news seems to be their gospel.
 
I have a question about the De Zeven Provincien Class guided missile carrying fast frigates. What do you guys think of this ship as a possible replacement for the Tribal class destroyers. It seems to be around the same size as the Tribal class Destroyers.
 
canuck101 said:
I have a question about the De Zeven Provincien Class guided missile carrying fast frigates. What do you guys think of this ship as a possible replacement for the Tribal class destroyers. It seems to be around the same size as the Tribal class Destroyers.

Nice and capable class btw all frigates are fast frigates by default. ;)
 
Hi all,

New to the board, and finding this topic interesting.

As I am somewhat politically activist, we shall see what Mr. MacKay has to say on the matter.  I just sent the Minister of Natinal Defence an email on the subject of this thread.  If he emails me a response, I'll post it here for the edification of others.

Cheers,

wolfsahdow
 
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