Don't join the army if your broken!

[George Wallace]

Very simple question, if it's a noted fact that the MkIII combat boots eventually wreck people,

It is NOT a noted fact.  It is, however, a b i t c h that I hear a lot in forums like this, usually from those with little real experience.  I have never ever seen a conclusive study to that effect, nor have I ever seen any CF documentation to that FACT.  Do you think the CF would intentionally issue kit that would cripple you?  Get real.  The Mk III is a good boot.  I wore them for years in the Military and years prior to the military as Civie boots (Greb Kokiaks).  

 

[HItorMiss]

Hey Doc, by hurt I meant deep inside where my heart is

Physicaly I'm good to go...well other then this contant burning when I pee.....oh and the rash surrounding that area.  ;D

 

[armyvern]

It is NOT a noted fact.  

Absolutely.

I have stated before, there seems to be a very big increase in the numbers of young troops joinging these days who have never worn a shoe on their foot that weighed more than an ounce or cost less than a couple hundred bucks.
Because the young ones are not used to wearing any kind of footwear on a daily basis that has some 'substance' to it (ie weight), they all seem to think that the 'problem' is with the boot rather than in their whiny heads. I see it and hear it every day. "these boots are too heavy...I can't wear them....I'm gonna get a chit..."
Within a couple of days, guess what? Most of them return to clothing stores ... with chit to purchase boots downtown in hand.  :

 

[chrisf]

It is NOT a noted fact.  It is, however, a b i t c h that I hear a lot in forums like this, usually from those with little real experience.  I have never ever seen a conclusive study to that effect, nor have I ever seen any CF documentation to that FACT.  Do you think the CF would intentionally issue kit that would cripple you?  Get real.  The Mk III is a good boot.  I wore them for years in the Military and years prior to the military as Civie boots (Greb Kokiaks).  

The MkIII combat boots are good boots, no argument, extremely durable, easy to care for, cheap, simple. No argument there.

You're also quite right, the CF would never issue or expose us to anything that would cripple you, nor would they issue anything that causes cancer (Cam stick), alzheimers (Aluminium mess tins), botulism (Melmac plates/cups/etc) or god-only-knows-what (Honey).

I've never seen a study either, but the MIR perscribes getting the sole replaced as the solution to many problems, and it does solve these problems, doesn't it make sense to have the soles replaced before the problem occurs? It's not just the boots of course, but they're one link in a chain... a weak link... if you're humping a "light" infantry load, that's a heck of a lot of kit... it's eventually going to do things to your knees arches and back... vibram soles reduce that strain... if you want the science behind it, read up on "impulse", force acting over time.

And as a side note, my own vibram soled boots weigh more then they did pre-vibram sole.

 

[chrisf]

Just out of curiosity for the detractors of vibram soles, do any of you also use the issued insoles for the combat boots?

 

[HItorMiss]

I use the issue insole with a Vibram sole boot, I found that the "Gucci" civi insoles gave me blisters, where as the issue ones did not.

 

[George Wallace]

Yes.  Always did.  Same with my mukluks.  Used the issue insoles and socks with them too.   ;D

Armyvern has a couple of good points.

After all those years of working on tracked vehicles, I like so many of my peers, have compressed discs and the ensuing back problems.  Now after complaining of backpain and visiting an Othorpedic specialist, I to have fancy insoles and vibrams.  Was this necessitated from wearing boots or more from the constant vibration of tracked vehicles?  Do many of us older guys think that the young are wimps?  Yes.  How many of us can say that we have never seen someone in our sub-unit BS their way into a new piece of gucci kit, or even go outside the system to purchase it for the LCF in the Field?  We have all seen those snives.  Some people have injured themselves in the job and should get the kit, others just want to have the LCF.

Aren't we off topic now?

 

[armyvern]

The MkIII combat boots are good boots, no argument, extremely durable, easy to care for, cheap, simple. No argument there.

You're also quite right, the CF would never issue or expose us to anything that would cripple you, nor would they issue anything that causes cancer (Cam stick), alzheimers (Aluminium mess tins), botulism (Melmac plates/cups/etc) or god-only-knows-what (Honey).

Get a grip on reality. As soon as the CF learned that these things led to ill helath effects they pulled them right?

No need for a study. Quite literally thousands of soldiers before you have worn Mk III boots and have suffered no injuries because of them. I could go through all my hundreds of chits for the past 3 years if you like and post an exact count for you of exactly how many of these chits are 'issued' out to young personnel with no deployments, real field time etc etc. Before I count them though, I can assure you that at least 90% of them belong to young troops vice experienced CF personnel who actually have enough time-in to have been injured in their service to their country.

I've never seen a study either, but the MIR perscribes getting the sole replaced as the solution to many problems, and it does solve these problems, doesn't it make sense to have the soles replaced before the problem occurs? It's not just the boots of course, but they're one link in a chain... a weak link... if you're humping a "light" infantry load, that's a heck of a lot of kit... it's eventually going to do things to your knees arches and back... vibram soles reduce that strain... if you want the science behind it, read up on "impulse", force acting over time.

If you think vibram soles are the solution to retiring after a 20 or 25 year career in the infantry with no foot, back or knee problems....you don't understand much about the nature of being infantry. And "Impulse", force acting over time means little to me when the guys who have done their "time" in the infantry etc are not the ones coming in with the chits; as I stated before....it's the new troops.

And as a side note, my own vibram soled boots weigh more then they did pre-vibram sole.

You mean the ones you had to buy yourself? That's ironic because if you were issued a chit (ie prescribed) by physio for vibram soles due to a "medical reason" then the taxpayer is the one who pays, and that directive comes from the CFMO's and the CFSM.

And since when were custom MkIII combat boots @900 bucks a pop considered cheap?

 

[chrisf]

Get a grip on reality. As soon as the CF learned that these things led to ill helath effects they pulled them right?

They did. And all these items were in use for quite a while before the ill-effects were noted.

I'll admit it's a bit stretched to compare them to the boots, but still, do say the CF wouldn't issue somthing that causes harm is also stretching it.

You mean the ones you had to buy yourself? That's ironic because if you were issued a chit (ie prescribed) by physio for vibram soles due to a "medical reason" then the taxpayer is the one who pays, and that directive comes from the CFMO's and the CFSM.

They were perscribed by an MO, because I was shifting weight to one corner of my foot because of an injury, and as a result, causing major pain to my toes (I should note that the injury itself was in ice each night, and my course mates loved it as it gave them somewhere to put beer). When I got the vibram soles perscribed, I never had any intent of having the crown pay, and when they need to replaced, they will be replaced out of my own pocket.

And since when were custom MkIII combat boots @900 bucks a pop considered cheap?

Good lord, do you mean actual custom combat boots, made custom for a specific foot, or is that the price of the standard issued boots???

Since I'm guessing I won't be able to change either of your minds anyway, I won't argue the point any further, but are you at least ok with vibram soles assuming they're done out of pocket for the individual?

 

[Armymedic]

Let me throw in a though about the Mk3 Cbt boot.
Designed for outdoors, military like conditions, correct? Everyone agrees with that. Good boot for what its made for, correct?

Vern,
how many of those troops with those chits are garritroopers who spend the vast majority of each of every work day indoors?

In the reg force, in our buildings, what does the flooring consist of?
Tile over concrete.

 

[George Wallace]

AM

If I am following your line here......we will soon have a rash of young soldiers coming in requesting Cbt Pants with padded bottoms.  ;D

 

[Armymedic]

we will soon have a rash of young soldiers coming in requesting Cbt Pants with padded bottoms.   ;D

Padded bottoms, padded knees, expanding panels in the shirt....
You assume this has not yet happened.

The limit of a medical chit is endless.
:brickwall:

 

[chrisf]

As long as we're at it, can I get the maternity panels?

 

[Jarnhamar]

Now, I am curious as to your opinions about someone joining the CF and later(after signing and a few years in) being diagnosed with something that they were born with?

Now that's just being a little self rightious and a silly. Why bring it up?

There is an OBVIOUS difference between someone in your husbands unfortinuate and heart felt case, developing an illness after 10 years of service and a kid joining the army with a *known* pre-existing physical condition.

Emphasis on the word known.

In my little corner i've constantly heard and spoke with soldiers who see reporting an injury as a shortcut to nice boots. And that's the root of the problem.  Soldiers telling newer soldiers to go to the MIR and get a chit.

Soldiers who have put their time in and humped rucksacks every week on PT for years (field infantry or even CSS IMHO) BFTs and deployments deserve this kinda stuff.  New recruits making a B line for the MIR then clothing? Fuck no.

if you like and post an exact count for you of exactly how many of these chits are 'issued' out to young personnel with no deployments, real field time

Exactly.

 

[George Wallace]

Exactly!  Bang on Ghost.

 

[Britney Spears]

Or we could just issue everyone better boots from the get go, at a nominal extra cost, or maybe just issue one pair of boots and then give the member an allowance for the second pair of "field" boots. All the man/hours saved on the MIR/Clothing busywork would more than pay for it, and I wouldn't have had to wait 5 years before I was "broken" enough to deserve gucci boots.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Or we could just issue everyone better boots from the get go, at a nominal extra cost, or maybe just issue one pair of boots and then give the member an allowance for the second pair of "field" boots. All the man/hours saved on the MIR/Clothing busywork would more than pay for it, and I wouldn't have had to wait 5 years before I was "broken" enough to deserve gucci boots.

Bang on Brit,

Now this is a very good concept that makes sense.

Definatley would reduce further injury, and at least allow the troops to be in control of one peice of kit, that can help reduce injury.

dileas

tess

 

[George Wallace]

Or we can be like the US Army and everyone buys their own out of their own pocket.   :

 

[ZipperHead]

I think it all comes down to what has been mentioned here (by me and others) and elsewhere: too many "new" (I hate to say "young" because a lot of the people I hear of pulling these types of stunts aren't in their late teens/early 20's) people think that if Johnny has something that has a high LCF, they should have it, too, regardless if they actually need it or "deserve" it. They feel it is their birthright, and they are damn well entitled to it.

There is decidedly less "fear" in new soldiers now, what with the huggy kiss "here are your rights: now go out and use them!!!!" being foisted right from the CFRC on upwards. I would've swallowed battery acid before saying "You can't make me do that!!!" to anybody with 2 days more in the Army than me (when I got in), and now it isn't uncommon to hear of new soldiers saying that to Cpl's, MCpl's, etc, etc.

Whether it's right or wrong to question certain things (cam paint tubes, aluminum cups, melmac, anthrax medication, etc) when you have doubts as to their safety and/or effectiveness can be left to the JAG, but I KNOW that I will never wear a pair of Mk III's again, even if I have to buy my own boots by collecting pop can's out of the ditch. Some swear by them: I swear at them. I wore them in their unaltered state for about 12 years, and then had them Vibram soled, and now wear alternative footwear (one pair paid for by the Crown, one pair paid for by Al). As AM mentioned, the majority of the time spent in Mk III's is in garrison, on concrete or asphalt (or surfaces laid on top of those). The pounding that your body takes is incredible and the Mk III (in it's "out of the box, with cheeseball liners") provides next to no cushioning. The Vibram sole itself does little (other than provide a sometimes better/sometimes worse outer sole): it is the cushioning between the outer sole and the boot that provides the cushioning one needs. Take a look at ANY quality boot (and even lower quality boot) and they provide this. Same goes for running shoes, and even dress shoes now. It's called "technology". Go from wearing a pair of "good" boots (Danners, Matterhorns, Corcorans) or even MK III's with Vibram soles to  MKIII's (in unaltered state) with issue (not Spenco insoles, which are given out at UMS, not clothing stores..... hmmmm, what does that tell you?), and it feels like you are walking around with hockey pucks strapped to your feet (especially when it is near freezing).

Time for the CF to get with it, and invest in new boots (yes the CTS programme is procuring them, but I shant hold my breath waiting) that can be worn EVERY day (the WW boots suck mad ass when you are a Carpet Commando or Hangar Queen (and in the field for that matter), unless you like having feet that roast in the summer).

Anyway, my rant out of the way, and for you young 'uns who say "Well, he won't wear the Mk III's, why should I?": read how long I went without, and also note that I paid for my own (and was willing to pay for resoling of the MK III's (a new pair), but the system ran out). If it means that much to you, you have to be willing to spend some money out of yer own pocket. And finding a sympathetic MO to sign the chit that says you can wear them  ;D (or avoid your RSM like the plague).

Al

 

[Patrolman]

  So what about Cornwallis Cripplers I suppsoe they are great pieces of kit to? I guess they must be since they are issued kit. I bet two hundred years ago people though their boots where great eveen though they had square toes. To them a right and a left boot was probably an absurd thought. It all depends on the times!
 
A few years ago I hurt my ankle while jumping from a Chinook. My ankle refused to heal for more than three months. Finally after being examined for the ump-teenth time it was discovered my arches had fallen. Guess what I wore faithfully for the previous five years. The Mk3 with issued insoles. No arch support to be had there. So after Physio and some corrective insoles things got better for a bit. Then it was discovered one of my legs was 3/4 of an inch shorter than the other. I asked for Vibram soles but was refused. After this I did selection for the Cambrian Patrol. Needless to say after a few weeks of humping 10 to 20 km a day my feet were a mess. I went from being the Navigator to a spare. My unit however decided to have Vibram soles put on the teams boots. HUGE improvement. Within a couple of weeks my feet healed and I was back on the team. I did the patrol with no foot issues and our team was awarded a silver medal. Without the soles our team probably would not have left Canada because of injuries.

It was not until I was deployed to Haiti that I got a chit for Vibram soles. The only reason was because  it was coming from the Mission budget. Without Vibram soles my compounding injuries would probably have caused me to leave the Infantry.

For those on this thread who haven't humped a few hundred km's with rucks wearing Mark 3's don't try to convince me how wonderful they are. As for the kid at the MIR with his mom ,well, that's pathetic. And yes I do agree if you are broken find another career path.