Drill with Rubber C7 at LHQ.

[Bergeron 971]

Well the title sums it up I guess. Rubber C7s, or blue guns used on parade for the flag party.
thoughts comments?
Thanks,

 

[GGHG_Cadet]

There is no point seeing as cadets are not allowed to do C7 drill.

 

[Franko]

IIRC CATOs and the Cadet directives do not allow for the use of any service or rubber weapon (C7 or C8)for drill what so ever on LHQ events.

Too "aggressive".        :

Regards

 

[Bergeron 971]

: Recce tell me about it...

Thread carry on. Lets get our opinions out on the board

 

[D. Nicholson]

... there's a few CIC Officers out there with convictions for letting it happen, too! 

 

[Michael OLeary]

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/49943/post-442222.html#msg442222

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/25557/post-152549.html#msg152549

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?action=search

 

[c.jacob]

There is no point seeing as cadets are not allowed to do C7 drill.

  Is that a new rule?

 

[ryanmann356]

no cadets havent been allowed to use C7s for drill forever.  If you wanna play with the rifles while doing drill join the PRes

 

[c.jacob]

I'm not sure what the rules are now but when I did D&C we used C7's which included for the sunset ceremony. I also remember the D&C company using them the years before us as well.  So this rule has not always been in effect.

 

[medaid]

That's interesting, because back when I was a cadet, an AIR cadet, I wanted to have a C-7 to drill with too! I thought it would be extremely cool and hardcore to do drill with that, and how sharp my flag party would look. Now that I've got some experience in life, and what little experience I have with the Forces, and Cadets, I realised this.

1) It takes proper training and respect to utilize a weapon for any purpose.

2) It is never about the Look Cool Factor, but about how you can do your job the best way you can with the things you have.

3) It's not what you're using, it is how you're using it.

Those points being said. I think that cadets should never be allowed to use C-7s as a drill purpose rifle, or anything that remotely resembles a current service weapon. I think the .303s currently employed as drill rifles are extremely sharp, and with proper care and maintenance, these weapons can reflect, pride, morale and honour of the unit that it's being employed in. The reason I say cadets should not be allowed to use a C-7 is two fold. One, there are many individuals out there whose sole purpose in life is to look cool. They do not realize in the importance of respect and responsibility which comes with learning and employing a weapon. I can just see now some cadet point that weapon at one each other, not to mention civies. Two, there will NEVER be a need for Cadets to be armed with, train with, or even remotely necessary for them to TOUCH a C-7 or any OTHER service weapon as part of their training/orientation/part of the program.  Like I've stated, I once looked upon the C-7 as the ultimate thing to have for ones flag party/drill team/ what ever. Now, I think it's the ultimate tool for a soldier in the course of his or her duties. Yes, that is right. A SOLDIER. not a Cadet.

Lastly if you're joining the CF for the pure point of playing with weapons. Well... good luck, I don't think you'll like what you get yourself into.

Just my 0.02 Rupees

 

[Lerch]

What's wrong the the No4's? Seriously!

Sorry, but tossing a perfectly good (and sexy) weapon aside because it doesn't 'float your boat' is a naff idea, especially when they're using rubber rifles that go against CATO's in every way..

 

[q_1966]

I'm not sure what the rules are now but when I did D&C we used C7's which included for the sunset ceremony. I also remember the D&C company using them the years before us as well.  So this rule has not always been in effect.

Wasn't that the old FNC1?

(I was told that they stopped using the FN for the Feu de Joie, because the blank round, once fired flew out the side of the weapon and hit a person in the face causing severe burns, which is believeable considering how close the person next to you is in ranks, with the .303 you don't have the same problem, as the spent round tends to drop (or not fly very far) this is only a story I was told.

 

[c.jacob]

Wasn't that the old FNC1?

(I was told that they stopped using the FN for the Feu de Joie, because the blank round, once fired flew out the side of the weapon and hit a person in the face causing severe burns, which is believeable considering how close the person next to you is in ranks, with the .303 you don't have the same problem, as the spent round tends to drop (or not fly very far) this is only a story I was told.

   It wasn't the FNC1 that I used.  I'm not old enough to have been around when they were being used.  We had the C7.  I know that they're usuing .303's now.  I just didn't realize that it was because that cadets are not longer allowed to use C7's for drill.  Now I know.

 

[Bergeron 971]

In 96, we used rubber C7's for drill at Valcartier and one airborne cadet had pointed it at a Griffon flying by, he got my butt in the chest and I took away his rifle, he was RTU'd pretty fast.
As for weapons or rubber weapons, I as an officer would NEVER allow just any cadet to handle them. I am reasonable for the flag party at my corps and they are the best 7 from the ranks, before they handled even the flags they had to learn about them, history, significance, parts, same goes for the Lee Enfield, sabre, and soon the C7.
They must to pass tests which i draw up, and must at all time show example.
Thing is, I believe rubber C7's are safer then Lee Enfields, and are also easier to come by.
I am VERY traditionalist, I wish I could get my hands on some .303's but we can only have them the day of our ceremonial, and I rather not take them as my flag party will not have had enough training with that weapon to properly represent the corps and the movement as a whole.

 

[Burrows]

In 96, we used rubber C7's for drill at Valcartier and one airborne cadet had pointed it at a Griffon flying by, he got my butt in the chest and I took away his rifle, he was RTU'd pretty fast.

I'm curious as to why you felt violence was an appropriate solution.  Hitting your subordinates is never acceptable, especially since there was no real danger to anyone.  Yes, a rubber weapon can look like a real one, but there is no excuse for hitting a cadet.

As for weapons or rubber weapons, I as an officer would NEVER allow just any cadet to handle them. I am reasonable for the flag party at my corps and they are the best 7 from the ranks, before they handled even the flags they had to learn about them, history, significance, parts, same goes for the Lee Enfield, sabre, and soon the C7.

There is no harm in allowing cadets the opportunity to experience weapons.  An air rifle can injure someone more than a big hunk of rubber and they haven't taken away those.  Also, why teach them about the C7 when use of it isn't permitted?  Why not just be happy with the Enfield?
They must to pass tests which i draw up, and must at all time show example.
Thing is, I believe rubber C7's are safer then Lee Enfields, and are also easier to come by.

I am VERY traditionalist, I wish I could get my hands on some .303's but we can only have them the day of our ceremonial, and I rather not take them as my flag party will not have had enough training with that weapon to properly represent the corps and the movement as a whole.

Solution: Investigate procurement of said ceremonial rifles through a sponsor or fundraising initiative.  It took awhile, but my corps found a few that are used for drill.

Not trying to pick on you here Bergeron, but I'm not too impressed with the first quote, and confused as to the reasoning behind the second.

 

[Bergeron 971]

first I was a kid on course with him, and I thought it a danger to point assault rifles at military aircraft on a base at the time, I also if the pilot would have seen him do so, the whole camp would have most likely lost the c7's. he wasn't under but at the same level. I laugh about it now that its 6 years ago. Things kids do in a split on the moment.

And as to why I think they should earn by learning about the tools used. Otherwise, any Joe blow could join the flag party. The flag party represents the best our corps has. I think they need to earn the right to carry and use the tools offered. I also need to learn the Lee Enfield, Saber, c7, flag, flag carrier. Every member of the flag party also learns the job of the other person.

They have to have Gold PT, Emergency Fri st aid and we work together until they obtain cross rifle and crown. We have one of the strongest shooting teams in Canada.

What I do is choose 2 red stars as gunner replacement and possible future full time gunners, 2 silver stars as full time gunners with future as flag carriers, 2 gold as flag carriers with possibilities of flag party commander. with one NSCE as commander. I choose within the flag party for flags and commander, as anyone else can have a chance to be gunners.

 

[Thompson_JM]

You have alot of reasons as to why you want to use C7's but I still think that deep down its a LCF thing...

You still havent given any reason why the C7 would be better then the Lee Enfield..... unless this was it

And as to why I think they should earn by learning about the tools used. Otherwise, any Joe blow could join the flag party. The flag party represents the best our corps has. I think they need to earn the right to carry and use the tools offered. I also need to learn the Lee Enfield, Saber, c7, flag, flag carrier. Every member of the flag party also learns the job of the other person.

the part that got my eye was

And as to why I think they should earn by learning about the tools used. Otherwise, any Joe blow could join the flag party.

if youre saying that they should use the C7 because they are elite and because any "joe blow" can use an enfield then I take offence to that. the enfield has been used by canadian soldiers for decades and still remains an excellent bolt action military rifle with a very very deep rich military tradition behind it. the cadets should be proud that they have the honour of carrying the same rifle that many a brave canadian soldier carried fighting against facism accross europe, or freedom in asia.  to belittle the .303 in my opinion is to belittle the soldiers who carried it. 

I truly hope that was not the intent of your statement however.

to sum up, you have still not shown to me, any reason why the cadets can not use the .303 over the C7. 

Regards,
  Tommy

 

[Justacivvy]

the part that got my eye was
if youre saying that they should use the C7 because they are elite and because any "joe blow" can use an enfield then I take offence to that. the enfield has been used by canadian soldiers for decades and still remains an excellent bolt action military rifle with a very very deep rich military tradition behind it. the cadets should be proud that they have the honour of carrying the same rifle that many a brave canadian soldier carried fighting against facism accross europe, or freedom in asia.  to belittle the .303 in my opinion is to belittle the soldiers who carried it. 

+1

 

[Bergeron 971]

I thought I explained my self, I love the lee enfield. and would use it before the C7 anyday. I'm VERY traditionalist, however, Lee Enfields are getting harder and harder to find.
I have contacts with rubber C7's, I would like to have rifles every week on the flag party, not only 3 hours before annual parade for practice cause the navy cadets lent us 3.
I never put down the lee enfield. And I pick those who desurve it to be on flag party. Those who stand out and give the effort to be the best that they can be. I will not pick someone that's slacked off since he/she joined to be a member of the flag party.

 

[Sloaner]

You should be able to request the rifles from your detachment/support unit for permanent or temporary loan.  I recognize that you are in Eastern Region and perhaps the situation is different there, but I've never had a problem getting rifles when requested through the detachments here in Central.  IF that avenue runs dry, you may look to your Affiliated unit for some support in accessing the the Lee Enfields, I am aware of some units that have been able to get former members to donate their old de-activated service rifles to the cadet program for use by their cadet company once everything is checked out by the weapons techs.  You may also want to speak to the local legions about same as several have donated rifles in the past.  There are several diferent ways to sort this out without having to jump to using a rubber replica of the current service rifle.

As a last resort, you can also try and partner with another Army unit in the area who may be able to support your needs on a more regular basis.  I'm across the river in Ottawa and perhaps we can work something out, or discuss various other options available to you.