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Drug use/drug testing in the CF (merged)

I personally think that CM prohibition is working just as well as alcohol prohibition. it isn't and the doubling of user rates between 94 and 04 proves that.(Canadian Addiction survey 2004 - first link in google search)

I will not induldge because

1) it is illegal though I would like to see that changed, not for personal reasons but for the betterment of society.
2) for the same reason I don't smoke and don't binge drink or huff paint, card deck PT is challenging enough living healthily let alone engaging in substance abuse to basically try to prove darwin wrong.

Zipperhead cop says he runs into many users of CM who are the bottom third of society, I think this is more a case of his job dealing with the bottom third regardless due to it's nature and not so much that CM is a cause of it, but since they are willing to lie/cheat/steal toking up isn't much of a problem for them. These sorts of people are just as likely to steal the stereo out of your car for booze or cigarettes yet no one tries to say that alcohol use leads to theivery yet we know drunkeness does tend to make one more likely to be violent and/or do harm to others or themselves. How many domestic disturbance calls involved heavy use of CM and how does that compare to Alcohol?

In 2004 the Canadian Addiction Survey, consisting of 13,909 Canadians aged 15 and older, found that:

14% admitting to have used CM in 2003-2004
45% admitted to have used at some point in their life
70% of those that admitted to using  before they were 24 years old

so I call BS that CM causes illegal behavior as if that were the case 31.5% or over 1 in 4 people aged 15-24 are engaged in illegal activity to support their CM habit and that is just not the case. In fact as use rates of CM has doubled since 94 crime rates have slightly dropped which shows no corrolation let alone causation between CM use and crime.

I know of many civy friends who are frequent users who are holders of multiple university degrees and are holding stable home lives and jobs... most of them are starting to quit as it's not seen as a cool thing for them to be doing at their age anymore. I have yet to see the same result with frequent binge drinkers. I've seen friends spiral into the gutter from alcohol abuse but not a single one to CM. I have never had to talk a civy CM user down from a fight in public after abusing it, I have several times talked down an alcohol user from fighting.

I feel that drug education needs the same approach as sex education. Abstiance programs and lies about the affects don't work, and prohibition is just making organized crime more powerful while criminalizing users of a substance less damaging than most legal recreational drugs who are otherwise decent contributing members of society.

The bottom line is that drugs are illegal and thus should be treated the same as when a member breaks any other law.

Drug testing should be done randomly and frequently, and the penalties should be laid out in no uncertain terms.

 
geo said:
People have always misinterpreted the term "zero tolerance".  All it means is that you do something and WE WILL do something.  No one in authority has ever stated that it will be "one strike and you are out".

The CF Drug policy is quite clear.  It places the individual on C&P and places conditions on you being able to stay in the CF... and that includes follow up drug testing.  If you are a regular drug user and you got caught.... you will slip up again and get caught again... at which point, it's bye, bye & sayonara!

I certainly understand that, and, if applied correctly, it's great.  On the other hand, we are kicking people out for trafficking on the first shot.  I guess it's hard to say what's worse, selling or using.
 
PMedMoe said:
I certainly understand that, and, if applied correctly, it's great.  On the other hand, we are kicking people out for trafficking on the first shot.  I guess it's hard to say what's worse, selling or using.

IMHO Traficking is worse, not to discredit the severity of drug use, but there is a high chance the trafficker(s) are drug users. Aside from that. trafickers are supplying the users (perhaps in the CF, perhaps not). But the old saying 'cut the snake off at the head' is a good adage in a situation such as drug traficking, not only in the CF but in all of society.
 
PMedMoe said:
I certainly understand that, and, if applied correctly, it's great.  On the other hand, we are kicking people out for trafficking on the first shot.  I guess it's hard to say what's worse, selling or using.

Using.... apply DAODs C&P shot across the bow.  Individual is told to sparte up "or else"
Trafficking... Dealing, making a business out of the thing - encouraging others into using,..... a criminal offense of the lowest kind... I don't want to stand next to someone who is profiting from the addictions & stupidity of others... (where is the ditch when you need one)
 
because trafficing requires the person to deal with and become part of organized crime to some degree and I'd say that really is much worse than using.

EDIT: to make my meaning clearer
 
Trafficing.
I guess I "may have been" the bottom third of society.who traffics dope?people needing money and are desperate.USERS wanting to cut a gram and sell a .8. to support their habit.
Selling drugs is the easiest way to make money in the world.Sit in your house and wait for people to swing by.Problem being the people you have to deal with.Both the people coming looking for it,and they people YOU purchase from.And where does your money go?To criminal organisations.Something to thing about.

I have no problem with marajuana use in the civilian world.However until it is regulated and the cartels are not building criminal empires of "little billys dime bag" it is making our world a worse place to live.

Got problems with soldiers using?What is their source?The guy downtown!Follow suspected members gather info and bust their asses.Put enough heat on an area and it is dam hard to find dope to buy.Partly because everyone is scared YOUR the rat,others want to hold on to their dope for the "dry" spell,and higher organisations dont want to get involved in problem areas.

Bases are fairly rural in nature,there should be no problem brining it down with a dedicated police force.Cities however are another issue all together.

However I cleaned my life up over a decade ago and have been a clean productive member ever since.I have not seen or touched the stuff in years.

Put the heat on base area's.

Also police your community yourself.EVERYONE knows who the dealers are.If you live in the area you know the place that parties all weekend,has cars coming and going all night long....oh and that reek of smoke is kind of a getaway.

I know some areas have tip lines just for dope houses.

just a thought from a person who may or may not have been involved in the drug business.(not chemical dope)
 
Moving a pound is no where near the same as smoking a joint, PMedMoe.
 
keep in mind that Drug Distribution and Drug Trafficking are two seperate things
 
ixium said:
Moving a pound is no where near the same as smoking a joint, PMedMoe.

No it's not. I'm not here to get into a debate about which is worse (in general).  I guess maybe I should have made myself clearer.  What is considered worse to the military?  Consider that some of the military people testing positive, are not testing positive for marijuana but harder drugs, such as cocaine.
 
from a military view point how is a member using an illegal substance no matter what it is, worse than a member joining a criminal organization dedicated to smuggling, money laundering, and pushing an illegal substance to fellow military members. These organizations are also known for selling to minors and lacing their product with dangerous chemicals to quickly hook customers...

they may both be cancer but to the overall forces using is benign while pushing is malignant
 
c_canuk said:
from a military view point how is a member using an illegal substance no matter what it is, worse than a member joining a criminal organization dedicated to smuggling, money laundering, and pushing an illegal substance to fellow military members. These organizations are also known for selling to minors and lacing their product with dangerous chemicals to quickly hook customers...

they may both be cancer but to the overall forces using is benign while pushing is malignant

Pardon me?  Remember that the next time your life depends on a drunk, a pot head, a crack head, or any abuser of ANY mind altering substance.

Roy
 
There are people in the CF (read res. especially) that frequently abuse drugs.

Why the hell are they still in?
 
popnfresh said:
There are people in the CF (read res. especially) that frequently abuse drugs.

Why the hell are they still in?

You know this for a fact?  If so, have you reported it to the MPs or your C of C?  What makes you so sure that these people are in "res. especially"? 
 
Roy Harding said:
You know this for a fact?  If so, have you reported it to the MPs or your C of C?  What makes you so sure that these people are in "res. especially"? 

I can't say this with any credibility, but if I may. I went to school with a lot people who wound up joing the reserves. All of them except one that I can think of were smoked marijuana during highschool, and to the best of my knowledge, most of those that remain in the reserves continue to smoke marijuana to this day.

Now like I said, this is not scietific nor citable evidence. I only offer it to back up what popnfresh said. At least that, as I would perceive it, many member of the reserves, at least those that I know, are active and or recently active marijuana smokers. I doubt that restricting the sample to those that I personally knew represents an accurate cross-section of the reserve forces in general. You have to take into account that these were all older teens and now young adults, and may I presume to say, more likely to me envolved in such activities?

I will not claim that this means that members are the reserves are more apt to being involved with drugs, minor or major. So please do not assume this is what I am saying. Simply, that whether popnfresh is correct or not, it is reasonable to assume that he may, given his own set of circumstances, be in a position where such a claim would seem both apparent and reasonable.
 
Then I would say this to both you and Popnfresh, NCdt Lumber - it is a sloppy and inaccurate practice to make sweeping general statements about any group, whether that statement is based on one's own limited experience with that group or not. 

Based on my OWN limited experience with the Reserves, and extensive experience with the Regular Force, it has been my impression that most soldiers are fine upstanding citizens, who do make the occasional mistake with mind altering substances (alcohol included).  Those who are caught usually "straighten up and fly right".  Those who are incorrigible usually don't last long - either the drug/alcohol policy kicks in and they are shown the door, or they don't find the military to their liking, and release voluntarily.

And I would ask you the same question.  Have you reported KNOWN drug use to your C of C and/or MPs?
 
Roy Harding said:
Have you reported KNOWN drug use to your C of C and/or MPs?

I'll add:

as CF policy requires you to do because not doing so, in and of itself, constitues a service offense.
 
Roy Harding said:
Pardon me?  Remember that the next time your life depends on a drunk, a pot head, a crack head, or any abuser of ANY mind altering substance.

Roy

::)

My point was that both users and pushers are a cancer, and extending that metaphor pushers are more like a malignant tumor as they seek to actively spread their filth while users generally just pollute themselves. Because a pusher is most certainly a user your overly dramatic point is moot.
 
c_canuk said:
::)

My point was that both users and pushers are a cancer, and extending that metaphor pushers are more like a malignant tumor as they seek to actively spread their filth while users generally just pollute themselves. Because a pusher is most certainly a user your overly dramatic point is moot.

From my actual experience ...

What you say makes sense ...

Until that user starts stealing his buddies kit and selling it on e-Bay, then breaking into houses to steal to support his habit ... eventually leading to court martial, jail and release.

No thanks. They affect me too ... right down to the damn paperwork that's got to be done to correct the problems they've now caused for those buddies they let down and stolen from. Right down to the guys who had to provide escort westwards (being taken away from their own families), right down to the cost borne by the taxpaying public.

Themsleves only?? My ass.
 
popnfresh said:
There are people in the CF (read res. especially) that frequently abuse drugs.

Why the hell are they still in?

Hey bud,  over here in LFQA I get to see the daily incidence report of drug, alcohol, violence, suicides & all other significant incidents happening in the area.  While I can testify that reserivsts are being caught & being dealt with in the same way as their reg force brothers (& sisters),  there are many, many reg force soldiers, sailors & airmen being caught, disciplined AND caught again...  after being put on C&P and caught again, it takes some time to make recommendations to HR Mil and get their blessing PRIOR to punting said individual.
 
ArmyVern said:
Until that user starts stealing his buddies kit and selling it on e-Bay, then breaking into houses to steal to support his habit

I agree wholeheartedly with Roy Harding that most soldiers (CF members) are fine upstanding citizens, and am therefore shocked that we have members who's drug habits have become THIS bad. How often does this type of deplorable behaviour occur? Or is this just a extrapolation of how bad it could potentially become?
 
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