Extreme heat in army tanks endangers troops; forces use tank blanket to keep troops from baking

[Command-Sense-Act 105]

Fred and others,

AFV crews wear their body armour in case they have to bail in a hurry (IED strike, mobility kill in a hot area, etc) - it only makes good tactical sense not to be fumbling around with your body armour while you are trying to exit.  In addition, it is another layer of protection - if your veh gets hit your body armour will mitigate injuries caused by interior spalling (Google it on open source).  Anything that will protect you better is a good thing.  Finally, in case of a rollover,  serious accident, collision or hitting a hidden ditch at speed, the body armour can save crew members from cracked ribs and vertebrae.

As far as hatches open or closed, too close to OPSEC, don't want to give away their SOP on open source.

 

[Brad Sallows]

I was thinking that if you were to hunt down some veterans of the North African theatre they might have some tips that have been lost to institutional memory; but, of course, they had the luxury of stripping down to skivvies for the type of war they were fighting.  We have the tech; I hope someone expedites whatever is necessary.

 

[Inch]

Wes,

The cooling vests that were worn by Aircrew in the Persian Gulf had plain old water cycled through them with some ice in a cooler. No glycol or anything like that. Believe me, anything we use on an aircraft has been through the ringer for flight safety, including disconnects for egressing. If it's safe enough for us, it's safe enough for a tanker IMHO.

 

[sgtdixon]

Wes,

The cooling vests that were worn by Aircrew in the Persian Gulf had plain old water cycled through them with some ice in a cooler. No glycol or anything like that. Believe me, anything we use on an aircraft has been through the ringer for flight safety, including disconnects for egressing. If it's safe enough for us, it's safe enough for a tanker IMHO.

Me and Some of the boys in Adm Tp were wondering if they could run gravy through it... then we'd have it fresh and hot on hand.

 

[Franko]

Must be a Strat thing....

Regards

 

[Kat Stevens]

Crewing the AEV in Bosnia in summer of 97, it got hot, not desert hot, but still damn hot.  We would take the hoses from the personal NBC blowers and stick them in our shirts.  Flick on the blower, et voila, A/C (sorta).

 

[Shamrock]

I've patrolled in midday around Kandahar in an up-armoured humvee with no a/c and the windows up.

Engine size and heat dissipation vary greatly between those two vehicles.

The concern isn't with the operators' comfort, it's with the equipment on board.

 

[vigillis]

As other have said, the cooling suit might be an option, I have no idea of the space restrictions inside of a tank but, it is in the system already and we probably have an open contract with the supplier.

For those curious enough to waste 5 secs of their life, here is the link 

http://www.med-eng.com/images/img_eod8_body_cool(1).jpg

 

[tank recce]

Interesting! Small, self-contained...

When I was paper-napkin-ing out something for the Cougar during a summer ex in Mudford, I was always concerned about the system volume, especially for the turret crew. (The driver has enough room for an ice cooler that would last him an entire 2-week Milcon - now if THAT ain't dating myself...  ;D)

If the mechanism is really that small, surely a slightly larger, refillable icecooler could be arranged. I'm not sure about the internal arrangement of a Leo (I've sat in once exactly ONCE!  ) - any Full-timers out there able to comment if it would fit under the various crew seats in the turret?

What's the power supply? 24vdc would probably be easiest to splice into the various power systems.

 

[Scants]

Strangely enough, dismounted/light infantry have been climbing up and down mountains with rucksacks, helmets and body armour since 2002 in this same heat, with great success so I'd hardly class this as a "critical requirement", considering that armour crews can carry an unlimited amount of water and are seated most of the time.

Additionally, not all US armoured vehicles are air conditioned, and daytime temps in Iraq can be similar to Afghanistan, so I don't really see what the big deal is. I've patrolled in midday around Kandahar in an up-armoured humvee with no a/c and the windows up. It's not pleasant, but it is do-able with plenty of water.

I don't think that this is the show stopping issue that the tankers over there are presenting it as.

1. Based on the logic of "being seated most of the time" one could say that humping the mountains would be no real problem because, after all, you are just walking. There is a bit more to humping the mountains than walking and there is a bit more to crewing a tank than sitting.

2. Sit in the same up-armoured humvee with no a/c and windows rolled but mount a hydraulic pump that is on the fritz right between your legs. 

 

[geo]

well.... if the US & the Brits & the Aussies have looked at A/C for their AFVs and have come up NADA, good luck to our tech boys trying to find a solution....

Some old 8th Army "parachute" shorts might be the best concession for those hot days.

After that, as Wes has pointed out, it's water, water & more water.....

 

[Franko]

1. Based on the logic of "being seated most of the time" one could say that humping the mountains would be no real problem because, after all, you are just walking. There is a bit more to humping the mountains than walking and there is a bit more to crewing a tank than sitting.

2. Sit in the same up-armoured humvee with no a/c and windows rolled but mount a hydraulic pump that is on the fritz right between your legs. 

Good point Scants....the damn turret gets hot enough as is back here in Canuckistan never mind Afghanistan.

Put yourself in this scenario....you are the gunner in the Leo.

Picture on a good hot day, say nothing out of the ordinary 32C and you have a hydraulic pump between your legs that normally runs and give off heat in the range of 50C or more, depending if it's working properly and not on the fritz.

There is no breeze inside of the turret, no fans to speak of....getting the picture? Most gunners have already stripped down by this point to their gitch.

Temps in the turret have gone as high as 65C just back here during training during the summer.

Now put the same tank in Kandahar with the temps that exist there in summer....we've all experienced them.

After 3 or 4 hours of baking in there you're given a fire order on multiple targets finally, now you have blast, heat, and cordite to contend with.

It's not an easy go inside a tank, forget the tales you've been told from a friend of a friend of a friend.

I've seen good crews become incapacitated from the fumes and heat alone after only an hour of firing.

Give the crews the benefit of the doubt before you go out of your lane troops.

Regards

 

[Shamrock]

Add to that the hotfoot the goddamn gunner insists on giving the commander because the driver gave him one earlier.

 

[Trooper Hale]

Dealing with the heat ends up being a personal thing. I've seen little fans installed, i've told RBD all about my clothing of choice when closed down (lets just say "Free and breezy"), and although it was a bit of joke, i tend to keep a cooler (or esky as they'r known) nice and close which is also a brilliant way to earn money off grunts.
But then thats for peacetime, i'm pretty sure that my PT shorts wouldnt be making an appearance if theres a chance i might have to bail out of a burning vehicle (Although i'm sure it'd be a great propaganda win if the bad guys saw my masculine and manly legs, "With legs like that theres no chance we can win! I'm going back to Iran").
Like i said earlier, the article that started this reflects a slow news day or a civvie talking about things they dont know. Do what Wes said and anyone in their right mind would do, smash down water, hope for a vertical wind and keep looking after your mates.

 

[vonGarvin]

Here's a part of the possible solution: electric drive turrets

Also, for whomever said that "it's not an issue", have you ever been in a car in the parking lot on a summer day in Canada?  With the windows rolled up?  With the engine running and no AC on?  That's how people die, and over here, 30+ is a hot day.  In the box, in Kabul, I saw 45+ in the shade.

So, imagine yourself in a big heat magnet, with a massive engine rumbling, hydraulics circulating around you, wearing armour, even though "seated" with no fresh air.  Yummy.

 

[FredDaHead]

Here's a part of the possible solution: electric drive turrets

We have fully-electric cars, (Tesla Roadster, anyone?) and soon (hopefully) hydrogen fullcell cars.. why not fully electric tanks? ;D

Seriously though, although the Leos are obviously not an option for that, couldn't there be some type of "hybrid" tank? Say, a diesel engine (or turbine, or whatever kind of fossil-fuel burning device) for the tracks and recharging batteries, and batteries for less power-demanding duties, like moving the turret, gun, etc. I know, it's a far cry, but it could probably extend the tank's endurance, as well as be cooler (providing slightly more comfort for the crew and perhaps better survivability, thanks to a smaller IR signature?), and reduce the logistical demands. Not feasible right now, I'd assume, but a possiblity for R&D for the next generation of tanks?

Guess there is a reason I'm an artsman and not an engineer...

 

[geo]

It's that or declare a theatre wide standdown
everyone put their weapons down & find some shade & water............

Nope, that won't work

Suck up that water & soldier on (I guess)

 

[vonGarvin]

The turret on the LAV III is electric drive.  The turret on some Leopards are indeed electric drive:

"The Norwegian Leopard A5NO and A5NO2 were fitted with an all-electric turret control system with no hydraulic parts."

(from http://www.haaland.info/leopard1/versions/index.html)

 

[Shamrock]

Fred, go back to hippystan.  The logistical demand your proposal would produce would be a nightmare.  That'd be hundreds of kilometres of extension cords per tank. 

Besides, what's wrong with running a tank on biodiesel?

 

[chanman]

well.... if the US & the Brits & the Aussies have looked at A/C for their AFVs and have come up NADA, good luck to our tech boys trying to find a solution....

Some old 8th Army "parachute" shorts might be the best concession for those hot days.

After that, as Wes has pointed out, it's water, water & more water.....

Don't the tanks and IFVs sold to ME countries (Brit, US, French) usually receive AC as part of the 'desert' package?