Fighting in the Fulda Gap
- Thread starter MCpl Wesite
- Start date
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 410
I'm pretty sure that an experiecned soilder knows when he can see and when he can't and doesn't need the likes of an RSM who hasn't done a section attack since God know's when to tell him by kicking him in the back and causing him to lose control of his weapon.
I think I was - in my usual too subtle to make my point sort of way - refering to the fact that some people lose focus with the tip of the spear and forget what the view is really like from the mud. They also don't like to get dirty, so: "Put that trench over there.." etc.
Tom
Tom
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 410
I figured you may have been sarcastic but just in case I wanted to be more then subtle in my own sense.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
you would think... :CFL said:
I teach my troops what GO!!! stated. It's all relative, baby. And as for kicking troops, that's stupid. Tough guy, kicking a subordinate from behind. :
When training, if a troops is in a fire position that I question, that's exactly what I do: I ask him what he can see. If he can see fine, and he has cover/concealment, I leave him there, and later commend him for his initiative. If he screwed up, I ask him where he should have moved, and why.
Kneeling, sitting, standing, prone, seems to me, that all the photo evidence from Iraq, Afghanistan, and Israel shows soliders in all manner of bizarre positions, returning fire, and carrying on with the advance. To say "You will always go to the prone" is simply displaying your complete and utter ignorance of modern warfare.
Of course, all the above is just my opinion.
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 410
"Of course, all the above is just my opinion."
and the opinion of most. Any further discussion on the offender would just turn into a military/politics sling fling. Whatca gonna do when the VP of your company behaves like an idiot.
and the opinion of most. Any further discussion on the offender would just turn into a military/politics sling fling. Whatca gonna do when the VP of your company behaves like an idiot.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
not much you can do, really. I used to spend a lot of time taking my section aside and explaining to them exactly why they shouldn't do what the CSM said to do in any particular situation. They'd get taught something from the Jurassic Period (all too often incorrectly, at that), and then us Jacks would grab our sects and show them the proper way.CFL said:
Then, we'd have to be ready to cover for the boys if they were seen doing something the "wrong" way.
"Well, Sir, he's just doing what I told him to in that sort of situation. I know, Sir, it's not what you said. I know, Sir. Yes, Sir. I realize that, Sir. I understand, Sir. Totally my fault, Sir, not Pte. Bloggin's, Sir. I understand, Sir. Roger that, Sir. Airborne, Sir!"
>whispered< "Nicely done, Bloggins."
- Reaction score
- 18,725
- Points
- 1,260
Like spendign a few weeks teach CQB then having a CSM comign in and in two minuted totally fuck the troops up
Like "no no no - no aimed shots - just kick the door and two guys lean in and empty mags" :
Tap Tap "Excuse me Sgt Maj, WWII called - it wants it doctrine back..."
Like "no no no - no aimed shots - just kick the door and two guys lean in and empty mags" :
Tap Tap "Excuse me Sgt Maj, WWII called - it wants it doctrine back..."
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 410
"Tap Tap "Excuse me Sgt Maj, WWII called - it wants it doctrine back..."
you almost made me choke and yes I would pay good money to hear you actually say that.
you almost made me choke and yes I would pay good money to hear you actually say that.
ArmyRick
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 2,013
- Points
- 1,010
Dinosaur repellent. A must in the transformation era of the CF. We need to trim away some of the we know best because we have been getting wasted in the SR NCO mess forever crowd.
While instructing on a SQ course last april, one of my candidates asked me a good question. It was during the defensive phase and the troops had just completed their first fully revetted fire trench. One of the troops asked me Why we are doing this in the three block war age of trg and my answer (I was struggling to think of a good explanation) was because the CTP says you have to learn this stuff.
As far as what fire position to use, IMO, situation depends. If I am in a good fire base position on a roof top in something like fallujah, then I thinks I will be using the prone. If I am kicking in doors then I don't think my stomach will touch the ground.
While instructing on a SQ course last april, one of my candidates asked me a good question. It was during the defensive phase and the troops had just completed their first fully revetted fire trench. One of the troops asked me Why we are doing this in the three block war age of trg and my answer (I was struggling to think of a good explanation) was because the CTP says you have to learn this stuff.
As far as what fire position to use, IMO, situation depends. If I am in a good fire base position on a roof top in something like fallujah, then I thinks I will be using the prone. If I am kicking in doors then I don't think my stomach will touch the ground.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
Hey we're not all frigging dinosaurs. I'd like to think I wasn't.
Having been out for a while now (I haven't done a section attack or any kind of attack in over 10 years) I'm going to try and stay in my arcs here and stick to generalities.
For what it's worth back in the day as a young M/Cpl my contemporaries and I were getting jacked by the proverbial crusty old WOs and/or MWOs who literally were refighting Kapyong because they'd been there after we tried to teach something "new" we thought might work. We smile said yes Warrantwe'll do it your way and as soon as he was out of sight went back to doing it what we we're sure was the right way. Some things never change.
Major difference now is you have a lot more first hand experience to draw on then we did. Medak, Afghanistan or Fallujah is a lot better training aid then asking some Brit in the mess how things worked (or didn't) at Goose Green or Wireless ridge. Continue to take advantage of that fact.
Look at some of the earlier posts in the thread this spun off from. This has been going on in the military long before any of us ever put on a uniform. Probably when some young L/Cpl opened his mouth and said "Sgt Major I really don't think wearing bright red coats and standing in a line in the middle of the field while the enemy snipe at us is going to work." Two seconds later he was probably kicked in the back and stripped of his rank.
My point is while I realize that there are dinosaurs out there and I make no effort at defending them (try having to drink with them when you're newly promoted and fair bit younger thenm they are) , they weren't always that way(ok some probably were).
Second point some of you despite your protestations to the contrary will rise in rank and may eventually become those crusty old CSMs (and yeah the image of CSM Kev or CSM Paracowboy is scary). If and when that day comes try and remember these discussions and not become dinosaurs as much as the system pushes you to.
Hey when I was a CSM I still did section attacks and patrols , both to show the troops that I could do them and to set the standard I wanted in the company. Last time I checked it was my bread and butter ( and we can lay off the Reg vs rental cracks when you're wearing the uniform it's your friggin job), and a lot more important than the paper work and other stuff especially with limited time and money. Therefore you make sure that you can still do it and the boys know you can. If not time to pull pole and go off and sell insurance.
Was I exception to the rule, damn right especially in the rank heavy social soldier hierarchy that was TM/LFCA in the early 90's when I made MWO and got my own under strength company to play with. I swear my first Mo exercise I got dirty looks from my "peers" walking around with webbing helmet and rifle all cammed up while the other units CSMs seemed to be burdened only with an FMP. The troops understood it though and I like to think they respected me for it. So you can bitch and grumble about dinosaurs or strive to eliminate that mentality. They'll die out and /or retire eventually and you're the ones that will replace them
Two general points in closing both of which continually come up in this and the related threads. First, nothing I repeat nothing is cast in stone and never should be, despite what some musty old book first used at Second Ypres says. Two if it works use it and then teach it until something better comes along and/or it's no longer relevent. If it don't work stop frigging doing it obviously, but also try and figure out why it's crap.
By the way whoever named this spin off Fulda Gap (Infanteer?) funny but not accurate. 4CMBG would more likely have met its personal Thermopyle/Camerone/Alamo in the Hoff Corridor if the cold war had ever gone hot.
Ok rant over now I'll just crawl back into my tarpit.
Having been out for a while now (I haven't done a section attack or any kind of attack in over 10 years) I'm going to try and stay in my arcs here and stick to generalities.
For what it's worth back in the day as a young M/Cpl my contemporaries and I were getting jacked by the proverbial crusty old WOs and/or MWOs who literally were refighting Kapyong because they'd been there after we tried to teach something "new" we thought might work. We smile said yes Warrantwe'll do it your way and as soon as he was out of sight went back to doing it what we we're sure was the right way. Some things never change.
Major difference now is you have a lot more first hand experience to draw on then we did. Medak, Afghanistan or Fallujah is a lot better training aid then asking some Brit in the mess how things worked (or didn't) at Goose Green or Wireless ridge. Continue to take advantage of that fact.
Look at some of the earlier posts in the thread this spun off from. This has been going on in the military long before any of us ever put on a uniform. Probably when some young L/Cpl opened his mouth and said "Sgt Major I really don't think wearing bright red coats and standing in a line in the middle of the field while the enemy snipe at us is going to work." Two seconds later he was probably kicked in the back and stripped of his rank.
My point is while I realize that there are dinosaurs out there and I make no effort at defending them (try having to drink with them when you're newly promoted and fair bit younger thenm they are) , they weren't always that way(ok some probably were).
Second point some of you despite your protestations to the contrary will rise in rank and may eventually become those crusty old CSMs (and yeah the image of CSM Kev or CSM Paracowboy is scary). If and when that day comes try and remember these discussions and not become dinosaurs as much as the system pushes you to.
Hey when I was a CSM I still did section attacks and patrols , both to show the troops that I could do them and to set the standard I wanted in the company. Last time I checked it was my bread and butter ( and we can lay off the Reg vs rental cracks when you're wearing the uniform it's your friggin job), and a lot more important than the paper work and other stuff especially with limited time and money. Therefore you make sure that you can still do it and the boys know you can. If not time to pull pole and go off and sell insurance.
Was I exception to the rule, damn right especially in the rank heavy social soldier hierarchy that was TM/LFCA in the early 90's when I made MWO and got my own under strength company to play with. I swear my first Mo exercise I got dirty looks from my "peers" walking around with webbing helmet and rifle all cammed up while the other units CSMs seemed to be burdened only with an FMP. The troops understood it though and I like to think they respected me for it. So you can bitch and grumble about dinosaurs or strive to eliminate that mentality. They'll die out and /or retire eventually and you're the ones that will replace them
Two general points in closing both of which continually come up in this and the related threads. First, nothing I repeat nothing is cast in stone and never should be, despite what some musty old book first used at Second Ypres says. Two if it works use it and then teach it until something better comes along and/or it's no longer relevent. If it don't work stop frigging doing it obviously, but also try and figure out why it's crap.
By the way whoever named this spin off Fulda Gap (Infanteer?) funny but not accurate. 4CMBG would more likely have met its personal Thermopyle/Camerone/Alamo in the Hoff Corridor if the cold war had ever gone hot.
Ok rant over now I'll just crawl back into my tarpit.
"One of the troops asked me Why we are doing this in the three block war age of trg and my answer (I was struggling to think of a good explanation) was because the CTP says you have to learn this stuff. "
- You should have told him that one of the blocks of the three block war was what we have been training to do since confederation.
You also might want to tell him that my hi-tech Coyote crew and I filled more sandbags, reinforced more trenchwall and spread more cam net and scrim on a series of Observation Posts around Kandahar Airfield than we had ever done in training.
God save us from quasi-literate recruits whose self improvement is limited to memorizing buzzwords and popular management phrases.
Tom
- You should have told him that one of the blocks of the three block war was what we have been training to do since confederation.
You also might want to tell him that my hi-tech Coyote crew and I filled more sandbags, reinforced more trenchwall and spread more cam net and scrim on a series of Observation Posts around Kandahar Airfield than we had ever done in training.
God save us from quasi-literate recruits whose self improvement is limited to memorizing buzzwords and popular management phrases.
Tom
Not to mention that sometimes those old dinosaur skills come in handy when those dinosaur situations roll around again -as they always do.
My personal example isn't all that high-speed or sexy... but here goes.
When I did BOTC in Chilliwack, bears still shit in the woods. Part of the harbour setup routine was the proper excavation of a latrine, C1 A1, high-speed low-sparking. No blue rockets in those days!
Of course, later on we either got environmentally conscious (or somebody noticed that training areas were forests of foul ground spikes) and we got the universal use of the big blue masterbation boxes, and the digging of latrines fell off the training syllabus.
Well, sometime thereafter I was with a platoon of guys sent off to one of the wild corners of Wainwright, tasked to act as btn enemy force for a two-week long ex, and somebody forgot to order up our shitters. Cat sanitation with a platoon operating in an area for any length of time is not an option to be seriously considered, and there was some sort of problem getting shitters out to our area. So I conducted a class on the proper construction and use of a regulation CF latrine, the latrine was built, and the problem was solved.
Hey, I said it wasn't sexy....
Anyway, all these skills, be it a section attack, or the proper construction of a fortified fighting position, or even of digging and using a shit hole, these are all tools in your toolbox. Some tools you use every day; some tools only come out on special occasions. But the more tools you have, the better prepared you are for any random situation that might occur at any given time.
DG
My personal example isn't all that high-speed or sexy... but here goes.
When I did BOTC in Chilliwack, bears still shit in the woods. Part of the harbour setup routine was the proper excavation of a latrine, C1 A1, high-speed low-sparking. No blue rockets in those days!
Of course, later on we either got environmentally conscious (or somebody noticed that training areas were forests of foul ground spikes) and we got the universal use of the big blue masterbation boxes, and the digging of latrines fell off the training syllabus.
Well, sometime thereafter I was with a platoon of guys sent off to one of the wild corners of Wainwright, tasked to act as btn enemy force for a two-week long ex, and somebody forgot to order up our shitters. Cat sanitation with a platoon operating in an area for any length of time is not an option to be seriously considered, and there was some sort of problem getting shitters out to our area. So I conducted a class on the proper construction and use of a regulation CF latrine, the latrine was built, and the problem was solved.
Hey, I said it wasn't sexy....
Anyway, all these skills, be it a section attack, or the proper construction of a fortified fighting position, or even of digging and using a shit hole, these are all tools in your toolbox. Some tools you use every day; some tools only come out on special occasions. But the more tools you have, the better prepared you are for any random situation that might occur at any given time.
DG
- Reaction score
- 18,725
- Points
- 1,260
Two points on the latrine issue
1) Doing that in this day and age will have you up on charges for violating federal enviromental polcies.
2) It appears the best way is the Fuel drum with Wooden topper (hopefully a full "house") we set up that way for the Rwandan DART Mission as it was the most hygenic.
Reality - defensive postions are built with what you got. While contractor filled HESCO makes my back feel better the reality is that in many situations you cannot simply hire construction companies to come in and build you a ready made camp. To do so gets back in the seige mentality that just promotes the concept you are invaders not liberators...
I still think that Razor wire as a access restriction is a better method than 12" of HESCO.
Just my $0.02
1) Doing that in this day and age will have you up on charges for violating federal enviromental polcies.
2) It appears the best way is the Fuel drum with Wooden topper (hopefully a full "house") we set up that way for the Rwandan DART Mission as it was the most hygenic.
Reality - defensive postions are built with what you got. While contractor filled HESCO makes my back feel better the reality is that in many situations you cannot simply hire construction companies to come in and build you a ready made camp. To do so gets back in the seige mentality that just promotes the concept you are invaders not liberators...
I still think that Razor wire as a access restriction is a better method than 12" of HESCO.
Just my $0.02
Similar threads
