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Forced to pay / belong to a mess [Merged]

I am sure this has happened to more than one person out there. Ya, my unit has been ordered to attend a Mess Dinner and pay for it out of our own pocket. Its not expensive but thats not the point. I am just not a fan of being told were to spend my money! Does anyone know of any references prohibiting a Mess Dinner being made a parade? or allowing it? My other thought was to Claim the expense. Any one know how that would work out for me? I have the email stating that it is a parade and as such a must attend event, and I'll get a receipt for the payment, attach that to an MTEC and away I go. oh and put the milage or taxi receipt on there too!

Any info would be great!

Thanks
 
Topic: "paying for a mess dinner":
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/41585.0.html
 
Are you Reg Force or Reserves? If you are Reserves, most units will give you a class A day, not to cover the price, but because it is a parade. If you are Regs, see R. v. Master Seaman R.J. Middlemiss, 2009 CM 1001 , at this link:

http://www.jmc-cmj.forces.gc.ca/dec/2009-eng.asp

He got a reprimand and a 500$ fine. Bottom line: it is a lawful command and the member has to comply.
 
CFSCE had a JAG Legal O draft a statement to this very idea.

Mess Dinners are counted as part of military tradition, and part of our salary (very small, like 1%) is justified as having to pay for things like mess dinners. They can order you to attend, but if you are really objecting to paying, then you'll probably be told to sit there with no food and no free 'table wine' and port. You won't be able to claim a taxi receipt, nobody made you drink. The CO may be generous and pay for cabs, but I have only seen that once.
 
Grunt225 said:
I am just not a fan of being told were to spend my money!
I'm not a fan of paying taxes to support terrorists' lawyers, cushy programmes for drug addicts, or long-gun registration. Those taxes are, however, one of the conditions of living in this country.

Paying for a Mess Dinner is one of conditions of serving in the CF, and like me paying taxes if the conditions are too onerous one always has the option of leaving. While that may sound harsh and unsympathetic, I assure you it's just reality.


And as a suggestion..... just like I don't constantly complain about taxes, spending the Mess Dinner complaining about it will only diminish the positive aspects for yourself and irritate those sitting around you.  Your call of course.
 
I also think it's bullshit, but what can you do but suck it up and fork over the money.  I was also told I had to wear a white collared dress shirt under my DEU's to the mess dinner... I had no white dress shirts so I wore my wifes which was not only too small (couldn't do it up around my manly middle) but it had a "ruffly" collar.  I wasn't about to go out and buy a dress shirt on top of $50 for the dinner.
 
:deadhorse:

Our pay, both Regular Force and Reserve Force, is calculated to include a 4% "Military factor" which is to compensate us for the unique military requirements to get haircuts, dry clean uniforms, buy shoe polish and pay for mess dues and mess dinners.  We have to pay for mess dinners because no one is entitled to a free meal in the CF.  If you're a Reservist who is fortunate enough to be in a unt that can afford to cough up a days pay for this "parade", be happy.  Your Regular Force comrades don't enjoy that perk.  In fact, just be happy that you get that additional 4% and enjoy the dinner. :brickwall:

Nix said:
I had no white dress shirts so I wore my wifes which was not only too small (couldn't do it up around my manly middle) but it had a "ruffly" collar.  I wasn't about to go out and buy a dress shirt on top of $50 for the dinner.

I'm sure you'd make future use of a white shirt - like at the next mess dinner that you're ordered to attend.  Wearing your wife's white blouse to two different functions is a HUGE fashion faux pas.  Ask any woman why she needs a new dress for every event.
 
As for the "cost of a white shirt and bow tie" Wait until reach Snr NCO or Officer Ranks and see what Mess Kit costs. :eek:

As pointed out attending mess dinners are part and parcel of the job end of statment. Not everything in the CF is fun and not everyone has the same definition of "fun."

You have two options go bitching and grumbling a dn have a miserable time, or go in with an open mind and maybe find it an enjoyable expeience full of comradeship and the traditions that are an essential  part of what we are.
 
Haggis said:
:deadhorse: Our pay, both Regular Force and Reserve Force, is calculated to include a 4% "Military factor" which is to compensate us for the requirements to get haircuts, dry cleaning, shoe polish and pay for mess dinners.  We have to pay for mess dinners because no one is entitled to a free meal in the CF.  If you're a Reservist who is fortunate enough to be in a unt that can afford to cough up a days pay for this "parade", be happy.  Your Regular Force comrades don't enjoy that perk.  In fact, just be happy that you get that additional 4% and enjoy the dinner. :brickwall:

Haggis:  if a dinner is a parade, a member is entitled to pay for it.  No ifs, ands or buts.  Reg F are paid 24/7 already; Reservists are paid when on duty - and a parade is duty time.

The Army released an official policy on this recently.  (LFCO 11-05, as announce in CANLANDGEN 013/10)


(Edit to add reference)
 
dapaterson said:
The Army released an official policy on this recently.  (LFCO 11-05, as announce in CANLANDGEN 013/10)

Recently indeed, and I hadn't seen this yet. Thanks.  I consider myself updated.

So, clearly this has removed another preceived "hardship" associated with mess dinners for Army Reservists.
 
Of course, the traditional method for Reserves to organize such things is to plan a training event / professional development event the day of the dinner.  Show up at 8am, study X, Y or Z for the day, get changed, and enjoy the dinner.

And if the PD ends early, there's always work for subbies to set things up...
 
dapaterson said:
Of course, the traditional method for Reserves to organize such things is to plan a training event / professional development event the day of the dinner.  Show up at 8am, study X, Y or Z for the day, get changed, and enjoy the dinner.

And if the PD ends early, there's always work for subbies to set things up...

That's usually been the practise.  However, in the past you always had those soldiers who only showed up for the dinner and then whined afterwards that they didn't get paid the same as the troops who showed up and trained all day beforehand (usually it was some type of PD or "mandated briefings" like WHMIS, radiation safety media awareness etc.) .  I've also seen the reverse, where troops show up for the "good" training and then are absent for the dinner.

I've never been a big fan of mess life in general but accept it as part of the job.  And, like other aspects of service in the CF, if you want it to be fun, it'll be fun.  If you want it to suck, it'll suck.  I choose to make the best of it.
 
The decisions at
R. v. Master Seaman R.J. Middlemiss, 2009 CM 1001 , at this link:

http://www.jmc-cmj.forces.gc.ca/dec/2009-eng.asp
(noted in TimBit’s previous post) make for interesting reading.

I particularly noted a frequent use of the phrase “mess dinners were intended to be esprit de corps events.”  Obviously, for MS Middlemass, the specific function he refused to attend did little to improve his “esprit” and I sensed (perhaps incorrectly) that it probably had a similar effect on the fellow junior NCMs in that unit who (as noted in the decision) indicated that they would not have attended if the mess dinner had not been decreed mandatory.

But another thought struck me; are junior NCMs attending (and being forced to attend) mess dinners in a greater frequency than in years decades past.  The word “tradition” is often used when justifying mandatory attendance.  During my time in the junior ranks, I attended a mess dinner on only two occasions and both times they were associated with courses. 

The first time was the evening that we graduated from basic training in Cornwallis (mid ‘70s).  Our instructors told us that this was a very unique event and was happening only because the reviewing officer of the grad parade was a general officer (I don’t remember who) and he liked mess dinners (or more likely the BComd wanted to impress him).  In my dimming memory I can’t remember if we were assessed for this function . . . ahh, now that I’m thinking about it, I do remember the instructor sitting across from me (an RCD MCpl) mentioning that the small assessment ($2 or not much more) was “for the pickles”.  I also recall that this MCpl said that this was only the second mess dinner he had attended, the other being on his CLC.  That also was the only other time as a JR that I attended such a function, the “training” mess dinner on my JLC.

I am a fan of mess dinners (and other mess traditions, having been both a Jnr Ranks PMC and Officers’ Mess Vice) and have never been one to suggest that the tradition be curtailed.  However, the tradition had been that mess dinners were focal events for Officers and WOs & Sgts.  Even then, there was only infrequent mingling of the two groups.  During my Reg Force commissioned service, I semi-recall (that may have something to do with the quality and quantity of the port) only once attending an all ranks mess dinner and even that was very heavily subsidized for the junior NCMs. (I was on an air base at the time and the function was for the BAdm branch.)

I would suggest that (if this is now more frequent) one of the reasons may be that Commanding Officers are faced with too small a critical mass of officers and/or Snr NCMs to make the cost of mess dinners acceptable, so they impose what had been a traditional and acceptable expense to members of the senior messes on junior soldiers who traditionally did not attend mess dinners.  When I was the CO of a reserve unit, I was tempted on occasion to follow such a course, however (unlike my fondness for whisky and port) I resisted the temptation.  How was “esprit de corps” traditionally encouraged through “social” functions?  Usually, there were all-ranks social events throughout the year, some exclusively for serving members, some more formal that included spouses (permanent and temporary), some that included all family members including children.  But none were parades requiring uniforms.
 
How about posting the ref in full for those that don't have daily access to the DIN.

Regards
 
If you're a reservist why not just do what reservists have done forever to get out of parades, execises, range days, etc?  Just tell them you've got to work, or study, or you have a hang nail, or the buses stop running too early, or some other excuse reason.
 
recceguy said:
How about posting the ref in full for those that don't have daily access to the DIN.

Regards

The ref is an internet link, not DWAN.
 
Just read it....he's SOL and the charges stuck.

Go to the Dinner and enjoy the port.

Regards
 
Occam said:
The ref is an internet link, not DWAN.

So where is the link to LFCO 11-05, as announced in CANLANDGEN 013/10, dapaterson is talking about?
 
Blackadder1916 said:
The decisions at  (noted in TimBit’s previous post) make for interesting reading.

I particularly noted a frequent use of the phrase “mess dinners were intended to be esprit de corps events.”  Obviously, for MS Middlemass, the specific function he refused to attend did little to improve his “esprit” and I sensed (perhaps incorrectly) that it probably had a similar effect on the fellow junior NCMs in that unit who (as noted in the decision) indicated that they would not have attended if the mess dinner had not been decreed mandatory.

But another thought struck me; are junior NCMs attending (and being forced to attend) mess dinners in a greater frequency than in years decades past.   The word “tradition” is often used when justifying mandatory attendance.  During my time in the junior ranks, I attended a mess dinner on only two occasions and both times they were associated with courses.
...

Earlier in this thread, the link is provided for the entire Court martial transcript vice just the sentencing/Charter Challenges.

As for "frequency" of Jr ranks attending, it all depends upon your Unit; pers may very well be posted to a Unit where it is an annual occurance by tradition OR to a Unit where it occurs only sporadicly if at all. MS Middlemiss was, at the time, serving in Colorado (IIRC, but it was in the US) where an Annual "All-Nations" Mess Dinner indeed occured each year; it was a traditional function for the Unit with whom he was serving at the time.

Besides all our other Mess Dinners, my previous Unit holds an Annual Mess Dinner that is inclusive of the Jr Ranks. It is a trg Mess Dinner and is a mandatory parade. We Snr NCOs, WOs & Officers subsidized their costs - as did their very own Jr Ranks Mess; still, we'd have those who insisted that they "did not have to pay" (even at 10 bucks each) - they got exactly what they wished for. They sat through the entire Mess Dinner without the meal and without the drinks. I'll note that the only persons who did NOT have a blast and enjoy themselves were exactly those same pers.

On a personal note, I volunteer myself up for each and every Mess Dinner that I possibly can; I have never attended one that I did not utterly enjoy. I just signed myself up for one today which is occuring on 7 Oct ... and has absolutely nothing to do with my own Unit.
 
ArmyVern said:
I just signed myself up for one today which is occuring on 7 Oct ... and has absolutely nothing to do with my own Unit.

See you there, Vern.  I took a day's annual for the Friday.  :nod:
 
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