Foreign Workers: Political/Labour effects (split from 2024 UK rioting thread)

[RangerRay]

There is some of that...look at how many "ads" are in small print but don't have details...run it for a couple of weeks and all of a sudden nobody applied so TFW

Then there are the games some larger operations are running....hire for one -> TFW -> move to a second location due to X reason.

I understand the need to get specialized knowledge. I don't see the need for waitresses, cashiers, and line cooks especially when you're laying off locals or not hiring them. And frankly...if a person can't live on the wage you're paying - based upon the single job you're offering (not working 3x jobs) - then maybe it's time to raise wages and/or costs instead of depressing your local economy and then wondering why nobody is going to your restaurant/business.

I have a hard time seeing an employer being altruistic and offer higher wages when they can easily get cheap labour via the TFW program. Until that program is scrapped or scaled back so that employers can only access it if they can show they can’t find the skilled labour within the country, employers will continue to use a program that intervenes in the labour market.

It’s a fallacy that business people are free-enterprisers. Most, if not all, will welcome state intervention if it benefits them, whether it’s by preventing competition, giving them access to cheap labour or handing out taxpayer lucre for keeping the lights on.

 

[lenaitch]

As Canadians are aging out of the workforce at an increasingly alarming rate, the main issue is a declining population of employable 'locals'. There are not enough people to do the work, and there won't be a sudden emergence of AI at a rate that will take up the slack, hence the need for immigrants, and we're lucky to have them ...

Couple that with the sea of lost souls cluttering downtowns across the land who's brains (and employability) are fried by opioids. Anecdotally, I don't see a lot of visible minorities in those crowds.

 

[Brad Sallows]

It’s a fallacy that business people are free-enterprisers. Most, if not all, will welcome state intervention if it benefits them, whether it’s by preventing competition, giving them access to cheap labour or handing out taxpayer lucre for keeping the lights on.

They are free-enterprisers, but part of free enterprise is exploiting legitimate advantages. If you want to see whether business people are free-enterprisers, end subsidies and policies which distort plain ordinary market functioning. I expect most businesses will adapt and remain, not disappear.

 

[childs56]

Just curious but what is a "swamper?"

Essentially an apprentice driver/picker operator.
They get to learn how to properly chain a truck up. Learn to use rigging for securing loads/ lifting loads.
Cleans maintains the equipment as required.
Scratches the commander driver behind his ears so he doesn't have to.
Move boards cribbing around as required on site.

All in all a great way to start out in the trucking world. Gets to learn how all the trucks and trailers work, how to secure/lift loads etc prior to becoming a driver/operator themselves.

Should be decent money but long hours and erratic ones at best.

 

[CBH99]

Add tipping culture to that too.

Yeah, tips means that you could make a ton more money than you would normally get. It also means that businesses can underpay claiming that tips will make up the difference.

The problem is what happens if a night is super slow and you end up losing money due to lack of tips?

Can employers pay less than minimum wage if there is a reasonable expectation that tips will make up the difference? (Re waitress)

(In my mind, minimum wage means minimum wage. But the world seems to be changing faster than my brain cab keep up with sometimes, so I figured it better to ask than assume)

 

[CBH99]

Canada can't rely on a steady stream of folks escaping North Dakota to provide underground labour on farms. The TFW program helps farms suppress labour costs and avoid developing mechanical solutions. Its expansion to suppress wages in urban areas as well is something government may make statements about, but will not likely address.

In the case of needing to find labour for jobs on farms where advertising just isn't attracting the kind of labour the industry requires, the TFW program makes sense.

But expanding the TFW program to such an extent that Canadian citizens (especially youth) can't get hired for legitimate jobs because the TFW program is being exploited & abused?

Government would be well advised to address the issue. It's a problem they created, and is yet one more nail in the coffin we're watching our economy die in.

(If Tim Hortons honestly can't find a local Canadian that is capable of working a bloody cash register, then we have bigger problems...)



Personally, I think Canadians are desperate enough that if the TFW program magically disappeared tomorrow, those positions would be filled by Canadian citizens in fairly short order.

Canadians don't have the luxury of a Harper-era economy to be snobbish about employment anymore.

Jobs pay money & money pays for food - for a country that's experiencing record high numbers of people relying on food banks, I'm thinking we could cut back on the approx 2.6 million TFW's we have here.

(That apparently aren't tracked very closely when looking at our immigration numbers, since they aren't expected to stay...)

 

[foresterab]

Can employers pay less than minimum wage if there is a reasonable expectation that tips will make up the difference? (Re waitress)

(In my mind, minimum wage means minimum wage. But the world seems to be changing faster than my brain cab keep up with sometimes, so I figured it better to ask than assume)

Legally...no. But if you are the employer...that controls the employment status of the individual and their working visa in Canada....it's very easy to tell them to stay late/early or not clock in all the hours or cut benefits that a Canadian would fight them on. When you're given no choice on which shifts/hours day length you're going to work and depending on the contract wording was that daily hours/average hours/weekly total?

So many ways to play games with the system some of which are well known. Don't know how many companies I know that used to start all the crews in BC until they hit the threshold for OT...then flip them to Alberta for another couple of days of regular wages before hitting the higher Alberta threshold for OT. Just one example that happens with non-minimum wage jobs.

 

[dapaterson]

Can employers pay less than minimum wage if there is a reasonable expectation that tips will make up the difference? (Re waitress)

(In my mind, minimum wage means minimum wage. But the world seems to be changing faster than my brain cab keep up with sometimes, so I figured it better to ask than assume)

As far as I know, most provinces have abolished lower minimum wages for tipped jobs. It's still a thing in large parts of the US, where under $3 an hour for servers is common.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

My daughter has dropped off resumes on a weekly basis for months. No returns on any part time work for a high school student. Which is fine. I want her concentrating on her boxing but it’s mildly concerning.

Same here, she finally got a job offer, but by that time had signed up for more summer school curses.

 

[The Bread Guy]

TONS of detailed discussion/pulling apart of this issue apart from whazzup in the UK, so feel free to masticate a bit more on it here.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[foresterab]

Food And Beverage Server in Canada | Wages - Job Bank

People working as a food and beverage server in Canada usually earn between $$14.00/hour and $$26.00/hour. Whether you want to negotiate a salary, plan your career or track employment trends, you should know how much workers earn in your region. Visit Job Bank to learn more about prevailing...

www.jobbank.gc.ca

Interesting take on minimum wage, median wage and top wage advertised for the food server industry and broken down by province. Hint...almost all of them are minimum wage.

Comparison then to the "Cost of living wage". Rates

Difference between the two only looking at major centers:

Metro Vancouver - Median wage offered $18/hr. Living wage - $25.68. 70% of a living wage.
Calgary - Median wage offered $17/hr. Living wage - $23.70. 72% of living wage
Edmonton - Median wage offered $17/hr. Living wage - $22.25. 76% of living wage.
Regina - median wage -$14/hr. Living wage $17.80. 79% of living wage
Winnipeg - median wage $15.30/hr. Living wage $19.21. 80% of living wage
Ottawa - median wage $16.55/hr. Living wage $21.95. 75% of living wage
GTA - median wage $16.55/hr. living wage $25.05. 66% of living wage
Frediction - median wage $15.30 (2023). Living wage $23.45 (2022 value). 65% difference
Halifax - median wage $15.20. living wage $26.50. 57% difference.

While this is a very incomplete data set...with no checking for accuracy it highlights the differences in wages that would need to be offered for someone to work full time in this industry. The other part it highlights is where the cost of living has skyrocketed and wages have not kept pace (i.e. Maritimes)

So hypothetically speaking....what would happen if you had to pay a 20%? premium to the LIVING WAGE vs. minimum wage for employment of TFW? When I look at that sort of hourly wage now you're starting to cross into skilled employees and/or longer term employees needed.