Freedom Convoy protests [Split from All things 2019-nCoV]

[brihard]

It's impossible to have a discussion about anything when people throw around ignorant and baseless accusations of lying.

If you don’t want to be called out for lying, then don’t lie, especially when others can show receipts. If you’re unable to participate in the conversation on that basis, it’s no loss to the rest of us.

 

[QV]

If you don’t want to be called out for lying, then don’t lie, especially when others can show receipts. If you’re unable to participate in the conversation on that basis, it’s no loss to the rest of us.

You are as ignorant as they come and I'm done engaging with you.

 

[brihard]

You are as ignorant as they come and I'm done engaging with you.

That’s fine. If you continue to post nonsense I’ll continue to challenge it and correct the record for others who may be participating in the discussion, whether you want to play or not.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Wrong. The EA was, so far as I can tell, irrelevant to the role I personally played in the whole thing. If the commission finds it to have been justified, or not, I’ll accept either decision without preference. I’m simply sad either way that what happened in my city happened. It’s not to me to justify the EA; I have no dog in that fight and I remain open minded to either outcome and interested in the results of the judicial inquiry.

In any case, you’re changing the subject and moving the goalposts. Your claim was, and I quote, “The convoy didn't shut any businesses down. The city/police did (for covid reasons or presumably to deny services to the convoy).”

That was disingenuous, and then doubling down on it once you were corrected on it crossed into blatant dishonestly. You being committed to a lie doesn’t make it not a lie.

The management of the Rideau Centre shut it down because they were unable to safely remain open during the convoy protests. I presented just a couple public domain articles, but this is something our city lived and that many of us experienced firsthand. The Rideau Centre is simply the one biggest example, but there were a great many. Exceptionally few people were interested in shopping or dining in areas where they may be subject to hearing damage. Many businesses could not safely open because of the excess noise in the area. Noise levels were measured and were dangerous; that’s not conducive to good business. Protesters engaged in rampant harassment of individuals who chose to wear masks. We have members of this site who experienced that personally. Protesters physically blockaded a number of blocks of the city. Emergency vehicles could not get through if needed. These were not circumstances in which many businesses could safely remain open.

A bunch of us lived this while you just watched gleefully from Alberta. Please stop lying about what happened in this city.

Is there a tit that goes with this tat? You seem to have plenty to say about western alienation For someone who’s never lived it.

 

[brihard]

Is there a tit that goes with this tat? You seem to have plenty to say about western alienation For someone who’s never lived it.

I didn’t say anything about western alienation and I’m not picking on Alberta. He has told us he’s in Alberta, which, to the best of my knowledge, means he’s not in Ottawa. His glee around the whole thing is readily apparent. If he was in PEI, Nunavut, or British Columbia - or even Pembroke or Kingston - I would have named that place instead in an otherwise identical sentence.

My issue is with QV’s deliberate dishonesty, not with which province CAF has chosen to post him to.

 

[IKnowNothing]

Peaceful demonstrations are fine. But destroying property, carrying weapons dangerous to the public peace (like pick axe handles), resisting the enforcement of court orders and blockading other people and businesses from continuing their day to day business is way over the line. They are not peaceful, they are breaking several laws, infringing on other people's rights, and they are bordering on the definition of a riot. In my opinion this type of incident needs to be dealt with swiftly and aggressively from the outset, otherwise it will just last weeks and weeks with more damages down the road. The demonstrators (or rather rioters) should learn to use the proper processes set out to deal with their grievances - court and appeals if necessary.

I was curious what a search of the word blockade would yield.
Interesting change in perspective.

 

[Remius]

I was curious what a search of the word blockade would yield.

Wow. Lol.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

You are as ignorant as they come and I'm done engaging with you.

Brihard and I are extremely far apart on our ideologies, but he is correct on this. Sorry, but if some asshole sat in front of my house all night honking his horn, and the local police were too mismanaged to do something about it, I'd eventually be out there with a baseball bat et al. [temporary insanity Your Honour]

And I do think the EA was hopelessly unnecessary, so you can't try and drop that on me.

 

[QV]

I was curious what a search of the word blockade would yield.
Interesting change in perspective.

We are comparing my thoughts on the EA enactment to Caledonia now? Neither event warranted the EA.

 

[QV]

Brihard and I are extremely far apart on our ideologies, but he is correct on this. Sorry, but if some asshole sat in front of my house all night honking his horn, and the local police were too mismanaged to do something about it, I'd eventually be out there with a baseball bat et al. [temporary insanity Your Honour]

And I do think the EA was hopelessly unnecessary, so you can't try and drop that on me.

What’s he right about, exactly?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

What’s he right about, exactly?

Lets just say that you have a very vivid imagination when it suits what you need to believe.

 

[Remius]

We are comparing my thoughts on the EA enactment to Caledonia now? Neither event warranted the EA.

I think it’s more about your view of protests. Seems to have evolved based on team preferences.

Agreed that neither needed the EA. I also agree with what you said back in 2006.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Brihard and I are extremely far apart on our ideologies, but he is correct on this. Sorry, but if some asshole sat in front of my house all night honking his horn, and the local police were too mismanaged to do something about it, I'd eventually be out there with a baseball bat et al. [temporary insanity Your Honour]

And I do think the EA was hopelessly unnecessary, so you can't try and drop that on me.

So I think we are seeing the EA was uncalled for. The jury is still out I guess.

We have to be careful though. A right to protest is pretty important for a democracy. Whether we agree with the protests causes or not.

But I get your point, I can get pretty irrational when I am pissed off for long enough. Thanks Ma and Da for the Irish Ginger genes.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

So I think we are seeing the EA was uncalled for. The jury is still out I guess.

We have to be careful though. A right to protest is pretty important for a democracy. Whether we agree with the protests causes or not.

But I get your point, I can get pretty irrational when I am pissed off for long enough. Thanks Ma and Da for the Irish Ginger genes.

The Convoy Protestors just took the style of civil disobedience used by other groups: #IdleNoMore, #BLM, #MeToo, and made it their own.

It works and is highly effective. Ultimately, the immense success it was is a sign of extremely weak political leadership.

Imagine if it was an actual violent/revolutionary movement though? I think our security forces would be very quickly overwhelmed.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The Convoy Protestors just took the style of civil disobedience used by other groups: #IdleNoMore, #BLM, #MeToo, and made it their own.

It works and is highly effective. Ultimately, the immense success it was is a sign of extremely weak political leadership.

Imagine if it was an actual violent/revolutionary movement though? I think our security forces would be very quickly overwhelmed.

You would surmise it was successful ?

Not arguing if it was or not as I am sold on its meeting its objectives or not.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

You would surmise it was successful ?

Not arguing if it was or not as I am sold on its meeting its objectives or not.

I think it was highly successful as a protest movement and it achieved three things:

1. It made a mockery of Government elites. The Federal, Provincial and Municipal Government's were made to look like fools who couldn't run a lemonade stand. We are getting testimony right now that confirms this

2. It caused the resignation of Erin O'Toole and prevented a Conservative pivot to the centre. It ensured the next Conservative Leader would be a populist, enter Pierre Polliviere.

3. It put a halt to anymore Government plans for further pandemic restrictions and caused Government's to quietly reverse some of their earlier restrictions. Remember when Québec was going to "tax" the unvaxxed for example. Any new Government plans around restrictions or mandates would be much harder to implement politically.

These, IMO, were the three major achievements of the Freedom Convoy.

 

[Remius]

I think it was highly successful as a protest movement and it achieved three things:

1. It made a mockery of Government elites. The Federal, Provincial and Municipal Government's were made to look like fools who couldn't run a lemonade stand. We are getting testimony right now that confirms this

To be honest it’s looks like it was more the local authorities that looked like fools. Not sure it made the feds look as bad as you think.

2. It caused the resignation of Erin O'Toole and prevented a Conservative pivot to the centre. It ensured the next Conservative Leader would be a populist, enter Pierre Polliviere.

Did it? Or was he already a target after losing the election. Calls for a review and change were happening before Christmas. His days were numbered. Convoy or not. His support for a carbon tax, deficit spending among other things and a move to the Center is what precipitated his fall.

3. It put a halt to anymore Government plans for further pandemic restrictions and caused Government's to quietly reverse some of their earlier restrictions. Remember when Québec was going to "tax" the unvaxxed for example. Any new Government plans around restrictions or mandates would be much harder to implement politically.

Restrictions were already being removed and or planned to be. The tax plan in Quebec was never going to fly legally and a Legault knew that.

These, IMO, were the three major achievements of the Freedom Convoy.

I think that is what they think.

My thoughts is that the convoy overreached and allowed themselves to painted as extremist and occupiers looking to overturn the government. They lost the message. It was never about mandates or truckers and it was revealed in short order.

The fact that 2/3rds of Canadians approved of the EA (regardless if it was wrong to so) is a testament to that.

The fact that Legault and Ford (both had the strictest COVID measures in Canada) were re elected with strong majorities should be an indication that people were on board with necessary measures. Or could care less about measures and that this thing was really about politics and not mandates.

 

[RangerRay]

So I think we are seeing the EA was uncalled for. The jury is still out I guess.

We have to be careful though. A right to protest is pretty important for a democracy. Whether we agree with the protests causes or not.

But I get your point, I can get pretty irrational when I am pissed off for long enough. Thanks Ma and Da for the Irish Ginger genes.

Except this wasn’t just a protest. This was an illegal occupation of a significant portion of the capital where lawless activity was left unchecked for weeks. Businesses and residents were harassed and made to feel unsafe in their community.

Did it warrant the use of the EA? So far, it looks like it did not, but we will see what comes out of this inquiry. I am skeptical, but am open to be convinced if the government brings receipts. So far, I haven’t seen them.

Other occupations were smaller in scope. Don’t get me wrong, I think they should have been shut down long before they got to the occupation stage as well. But to compare what happened in Ottawa to a regular protest where people wave their signs, say unpleasant things then go home is wrong.

 

[RangerRay]

Did it? Or was he already a target after losing the election. Calls for a review and change were happening before Christmas. His days were numbered. Convoy or not. His support for a carbon tax, deficit spending among other things and a move to the Center is what precipitated his fall.

Personally, I was willing to give him another shot. He came close early in the campaign and I thought he could seal the deal after a few more years of PMJT. Where he lost it for me was when the convoy showed up and he took every conceivable position in the span of three days. That’s when I knew he lost the plot.

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

Convoy persons and supporters were from all levels of the pay scale in Canada.
The welfare person to the highest income brackets in the Country ( or at least in the Ottawa Valley)
It give people a sense of belonging to something bigger than them and a hope they could affect change in the way Canada works and how we live. They did not even know what they were protesting, anti mask orders and health orders are under the Province and Local authorities not a Federal matter unless it is there property ( example buildings leased or owned ).

Lower level people in the Ottawa Valley were suddenly Convoy control persons ( what ever that is ), they had signage and decals on cars and trucks showing they were Official Convoy persons. I am sure not all of them were 100% supporters and in actual control of the day to day message of the convoy.

The convoy PR people over estimated their size and numbers. If it was true 50 000 to 100 000 trucks etc they would still in Western Ontario driving to Ottawa before they were removed. They were claiming 1 in 7 truckers in Canada were on this convoy. ( 700 000 trucks are in Canada).
Convoy was made up of a lot smaller trucks and personal vehicles from what I saw drive by my window at work. There were a lot of big rigs, but no where near the numbers they were claiming to have coming from the West. Police did not seem to see the numbers coming till it was too late.

The problems in Ottawa were felt right thru the Ottawa Valley west of the city. Police services were affected because most of the small towns are policed by contracted OPP officers and they were deployed to the Ottawa region. One police officer I had personally dealings with was the only Officer on duty for Renfrew and Arnprior, his back up was Kanata or Pembroke, or Killaloe. People were trapped by lack of freedom to drive in the Ottawa area. Almost every day ( still some days now) there was a group of pick up trucks, big rigs driving up and down the 417 ( Queensway) bearing flags, air horns, flashing lights, and anything else to draw attention to them. ( Some are still protesting on weekends outside the city area and delaying traffic, forget where I saw them at intersection parked honking at passing cars asking for support). Commuters from outside of Ottawa had to face the traffic delays which are bad most days, then the convoy people would come out and drive super slow to slow traffic down even more. Added 45 to 75 minutes home for me some nights. Plus delays getting to work, then Police shut down roads to divert traffic away from the downtown core , adding more delays.

Ottawa for such a large geographical city and region has a very small Police Services. There was no way they could of moved the protestors out without help from other police services. 1480 Officers of all ranks for an area of 2790 km² with a population of 1Million. Toronto is 630.2 km² with a police service of 5500 officers of all ranks with a population of 6 plus million. New York city has 783.8 km² with 35 000 plus officers of all ranks but a population of 8.38 million persons. Ontario population is 14.57 million persons. Just so numbers could be compared equally. Ottawa police were out sized and out weighed and out of man power. Ottawa police requested 1800 more officers and staff to deal with the convoy. If this was a gun fight they would of been out gunned. Without the Act being used, not sure if they could of gotten the numbers required to move out the protesters.

Tow trucks were a tool they were lacking, tow truck companies were not willing to do the work because of fear of being put out of work by their clients. Not sure if any police service in North America has their own heavy wreckers. The tow trucks used that I saw on the news media were OC Transpo ( local public transit ) wreckers they use to tow broken down buses with, with Ottawa Police stickers over the OC Transpo markings.
Very few local tow companies wanted to be seen towing anything. One tow truck was asked by the Convoy people to move something and he got death threats and loss of business because he was seen towing a trailer away at the request of Convoy Control People.

One of the large truck stops west of Ottawa did not want the convoy staying at his business worried it would offend local people and cause loss of business with local trucking companies because they would be delayed fueling or look as if they were joining the convoy.

Big companies and little companies supported it with trucks and equipment. But also people rented trucks ( Uhauls ) to be part of the convoy only to have them towed away and impounded ( how much does that cost?)

No matter what side you take personally, you are going to feel let down by these hearings depending how it rules and what it publishes when all is said and done.


Convoy people in my own opinion caused the following changes, they took down a Police Chief, took down a party leadership, changed how policing is done in Ottawa now. Changed how the City, National Capital Commission, RCMP, OPP , OPS, The Parliament Police now react to protesters, peaceful or not so peaceful. The aftermath of the Convoy protest, has turned streets into no traffic zones, you see a more heavy police presence on the Parliament Hill. It has become more like the US with traffic controls, crowd controls and no go zones.

All this cost money and takes the freedoms of the average Canadian to enjoy the Ottawa historical areas and Parliament zone.

Only people to make money on this was the hotels, police booked hotels all over the city and the protesters also booked rooms, caters for police, and other staffers meals. Gas stations selling fuel to keep the trucks running, and police running.
No one won this