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Future Canadian Airborne Capability and Organisation! Or, is it Redundant? (a merged thread)

Here's what to watch for in the coming months:

Old headline:  LIBERALS TO ADD 5000 NEW TROOPS, 3000 RESERVES

Future headline: LIBERAL TROOP PROMISE DIES UNDER TORY VICTORY

The only reason the Canadian public is behind the new CF spending initiatives is becasue they know they will never be allowed to happen. 

Same old tricks performed by a new dog....
 
TCBF said:
Tories will up the troop levels.  

Let's be realistic, Tom.  The recruiting system is so slow and ponderous that many prospects simply look elsewhere.  There are not enough instructors to train these 8000 new members.  Not enough bed spaces, boots, bullets or bug juice.  No one should take this "promise" seriously until the infrastructure is in place to make it happen.

So, here's an idea:

First we rob Peter to pay Paul by cannibalizing exisitng units to form the SOC forces.

Second we move the best Reg F instructors from the recruit school back to the regiments and battalions to teach these SOC forces.

Third we recruit like the dickens and get those 8000 in the gate (before they wise up and find a more appealing and better paying job  ;D)

Fourth we staff St Jean and all the ATCs with a 25/75% mix of Reg F and Reserve Class C (to make it more appealing and get the best possible) instructors.  Give the Reservists a 3 year contract.  If they don't work out, the regulations say you can punt 'em with 30 days notice. (less if the f**k up big.)

Fifth we recruit regionally and train regionally.  There's lots of empty spaces at the ATCs.  We do Franco recruit serials at St Jean/Farnham and Valcartier.  English recruits go to Meaford, Wainwright or Aldershot. Hell, we could even re-open Dundurn!

Sixth we lengthen BMQ to include more field skills to lessen the strain on the Battle Schools/ATCs

Lastly (and this is a biggie) EVERYBODY goes through these schools. Reg F. Res F. Army, Navy Air Force.

This way the Regiments/ Battalions get their most capable instructors back and the Reserves get valuable experience and make a tangible  and lasting contribution to the CF.

Now, after all that thinking... I need another coffee.
:blotto:
 
My short term solution would be to bring back YTEP.  My long term, to enable the final solution to the Navy/Air Force not wanting their recruits/junior/senior leaders to go through our training, is to separate the training systems for the three services.
 
Now, after all that thinking... I need another coffee.

Double double for you, sir?

Yes, we certainly need to sort out the infrastructure and training end of things, especially if we want to sustain any capabilities we have, create or want. In the short term, a "Light Force" of some sort can be created, possibly by amalgimating the jump companies and the CPC to create a very small "1rst Canadian Parachute Battalion" (avoiding the use of the "A" word lest it offend anyones sensibilities).

A little bit of self advertizement, here is an idea for an evolved "Light Force" which should be robust enought to fulfill the various sorts of missions desired of a "light" unit but capable of operating in all three blocks of the "Three Block War"

"The Return of the Canadian Mounted Rifles" ADTB Vol 5 No 4 Winter 2002-2003 http://armyapp.dnd.ca/ael/adtb/vol_5/adtb_vol5no4_e.pdf

Once we evolve the infrastructure to raise and train the troops, then this (and almost anything else) becomes possible.
 
Haggis said:
Let's be realistic, Tom.   The recruiting system is so slow and ponderous that many prospects simply look elsewhere.   There are not enough instructors to train these 8000 new members.   Not enough bed spaces, boots, bullets or bug juice.   No one should take this "promise" seriously until the infrastructure is in place to make it happen.
Well, here's some news:
1. Language school is moving out of the Mega, leaving almost the whole building to CFLRS. Language school is moving to Campus Fort-St-Jean.

2. CFLRS will open a trg det, likely in Borden, to take a portion of the Recruits during the expansion period. This should happen in 2006, and last as long as it takes. The staff will be a mix of Regulars, who will be posted there, and Reservists on contracts.

3. BMQ and IAP are being revamped, adding 3 weeks to BMQ (not sure for IAP). They are adding more PT, more field time with portions of SQ, and more range time.

CFLRS is in the process of expanding and reorganizing already.
 
Jungle said:
CFLRS is in the process of expanding and reorganizing already.

Finally someone other than "The Voices" is listenting to me!!  ;) I wish the rest of my suggestions were actioned as fast....

a_majoor said:
Double double for you, sir?

Is there another choice??? ;D
 
TCBF said:
Mr. Campbell's idea of rotating the parachute role from bn to bn is a proven one, and it worked in the MSF/DoC Force concept in the 1950s.   We actually had the equivalent of a parachute bde then, truly the halcyon days of military parachuting.

Can't agree with you there at all. The MSF was never really a starter. Firstly, you can't say it was proven because they were never used in an operational role, which is the true test of a unit.

Secondly, they didn't even really acquit themselves that well on the ground in training. Look at Exercise "Eagle", in 1949. Eagle was such a disaster that the Calgary Herald later editorialized that;

"the Joint Army-RCAF Exercise Eagle has shown that these defence arms, in their present stage could not deal repidly and effectively with even a comparatively small landing by enemy airborne troops and fighter aircraft along the Alaska Highway and on these Northland aerodromes."

It was precisely because MSF didn't work that the Airborne Regiment was developed. And it DID work. At least until it was disbanded for crass political reasons by politicians whose idea of honour is to leave envelopes full of cash for their buddies in Italian restaurants.


The problem with any type of rotational concept is twofold.

1. It weakens the Regimental system that we've subscribed to for a century or so. The regimental system is used simply because it works. By diluting it, we lose the history, comraderie and consistency that has been a proven winner for Anglo-Centric armies for years and years.

2. It leads to unworkable personnel problems. The fact is that although the average combat arms battalion has many good, enthusiastic, fit and motivated soldiers, they also have a large proportion of dead weight who simply aren't up to the standards required of a hard nosed, truly "semi-elite" unit. In a true first strike oriented unit, those types can be weeded out through a selection process to offset extra incentives (extra pay, distinctive uniforms, better chance at seeing action etc.)

You can't do that if you're just going to say "O.K. 2 RCR, you guys are now "elite". The next time JTF 2 has to smoke some Al Qaida village in the Afghan mountains, we're going to cover their extraction zone. Oh, and by the way, Mortar Platoon, you guys are going to be doing a 14 km hump with full battle gear and fire mission load on a mountain range. At night. In winter.

Do you think for a minute that even a third of those guys are going to be "combat effective" by the end of it?

To do those kinds of tasks, you have to train for it constantly, like the US Rangers. I would argue it's better if you can start your guys from the beginning of their careers, like the Brit Paras or Marines.

The best way to meet the task would be to re-form the Airborne Regiment. It may be true that our military is unlikely to be jumping into Dive's Crossing or Arnhem anytime in the near future. But "Airborne" ops are a great development tool and segway to the type of soldiering that the type of light force being considered demands.

Re-constituting an Airborne Regiment  would maintain a sense of regimental history and esprit de corps while avoiding the internecine bitching that would inevitably occur if one particular unit were tasked with the responsibility.

It won't happen though. If I were to bet money, the Liberals would never subject themselves to the criticism that would follow re-instating the Airborne Regiment. It would be like the Sea King fiasco.

And if I were really going to bet money, I would bet that all those Regimental rivalries, squabbling, limited transport resources and jealousy will derail this idea before it even gets out of the gate.

JTF 2 will just use the Rangers or Paras when they need to. And the CF can hand out food packages to kids, build schools and man OP's.
 
LawnDart said:
It won't happen though. If I were to bet money, the Liberals would never subject themselves to the criticism that would follow re-instating the Airborne Regiment.

An Ipsos-Reid Poll on Global National tonight shows the Lieberals with a 1 percentage point lead over the Con-Servatives if an election were to be held today.

What that means is that whomever would win, it would likely be another minority government.  Minority governments are pre-occupied with their own survival. Other considerations are secondary.  Re-instating the Airborne Regiment (or anything that even resembles it) would turn the ruling party into Opposition chum in the House of Commons.  Not quite the Gomery Inquiry as far as entertainment goes but, with no NHL, it would be a close second.
 
I"t was precisely because MSF didn't work that the Airborne Regiment was developed.'

That's a twenty year gap.  Did we not have three jump bns until 1958, when it went to three jump companies? 
 
TCBF said:
I"t was precisely because MSF didn't work that the Airborne Regiment was developed.'

That's a twenty year gap.   Did we not have three jump bns until 1958, when it went to three jump companies?    
Yes, the Jump Coys were called "the Defence of Canada Force". It was cheaper than the MSF, but just as ineffective.
 
"the Jump Coys were called "the Defence of Canada Force". It was cheaper than the MSF, but just as ineffective."

I think that would depend on what you wanted them to do.  If we view the parachute as 'just another way of going to work' then I can't see those bns being any worse than the other bns in the Army.  If, however, we see the parachute as a symbol of elite soldiers, then some may/may not  be able to state that none of the jump bns could match the Cdn AB Reg.  Most of the detractors of the jump bns did not - I suspect - serve in them, just as forty years fron now, most of the detractors of the Cdn AB Regt will not have seved in it.

Depends what you want.  A parachute/air mobile bde for DOC/MSF Ops, or commandos?
 
Airborne, or Parachute, Troops have to be elite. I'm not talking about some kind of superior men to serve in those units. I'm talking about the fact that no matter how you use them, they have to be able to jump in with 72hrs of supplies and be cut from the main force for 48hrs or more. They have to be trained to survive and operate in isolation in all types of terrains and climates, with very little to no log support. As a matter of fact, that is exactly what the French Army does on it's Commando trg program. Other troops can receive this kind of trg, through a CDO course or something similar, but Paratroopers MUST have the trg.
 
"with 72hrs of supplies and be cut from the main force for 48hrs or more. They have to be trained to survive and operate in isolation in all types of terrains and climates, with very little to no log support."

- Sounds to me like part of a description for a good soldier - whether he jumps or not.  Whether he got there through the double doors of a Herky Bird or a Grizzly, basic fieldcraft, survival, and existing on light scales should be the nothing earth shattering.  Not only Parachute troops get cut-off and surrounded in War.  Methinks we don't do E&E enough.

But back to my post(s).  I see two schools of thought.  The MSF Bde existed as a means of delivering soldiers to isolated areas in Canada in a time when long range heavy lift helicopters did not exist.  Getting there was the issue, and the troops would have been expected to handle setbacks and adversity in the same way their proud regiments always had, once on the ground.  But comparing their role to that of a 'Commando' one I think is off the mark.
 
TCBF, how much time have you spent in a Light Inf, or Airborne / Para unit ? I spent 12 years in Airborne/ Light Inf/ Para, and a little bit of time in a Mech Batt, enough to notice there is a difference in the philosophy of trg between the two.
You seem to support the "good at everything, excellent at nothing" philosophy that we have been stuck in for decades. I disagree with that, so I will stop arguing with you.
Have a good one.
 
Jungle said:
enough to notice there is a difference in the philosophy of trg between the two.

A HUGE difference...
 
"You seem to support the "good at everything, excellent at nothing" philosophy that we have been stuck in for decades."

No, I agree with you guys on this.  I was under the impression that the 1950s concept of the MSF was a logical one at the time, given the sixe and role of our Army then, and that done differently, it might be again. 

You have made the point that anything less than a properly trained dedicated parachute unit is inadequate and gives only the illusion of capability - perhaps a 'jump club' as one source (LCol Bernd?) put it.

Being as how you  are in the know, not me, I stand corrected.
 
George Wallace said:
tomahawk6 said:
"Lieutenant-Colonel Dave Galea said the new force will be based on the three existing light infantry battalions -- units of about 600 soldiers with light weapons and equipment and almost no vehicles."

Gee.......Tom

Wasn't that what we were able to do back in 1980 in the SSF - anywhere in 24 hours.  As a matter of fact, FMC was supposed to be able to move any formation in a short period of time, less than seven days.
I think the key difference is that (from the sounds of things) this force will be in the magnitude of three times the Airborne Regiment.  It is also possible that the Li Bde would not consolidate the parachute capability into one bn.  I predict such a bde would keep the jump coys decentralized with one in each bn.
 
I think the idea of hot and cold LZ's may be correct from that limited point. So the idea of us dropping into a hot LZ has never been something that we "wanted" to do. But I think what they are meaning is more towards that we will not be sending in these rapid deployment forces to any theatre that is "hot" in any way, shape, or form. They will be "rapid" in that they will be sent into areas where lightly armed forces will be far heavier armed then anything they come into contact with and thus able to move about to deliver their aid un-encumbered by anything larger then a few "peasents" with AK-47's and a truck or two.

They want to keep us as far from any "action" larger then platoon size, so that it looks good in the media and we don't have any possable multiple body bag incidents. And we all know from experience, even with all their talk and grand plans, we will never send anything larger then a battle group even if we manage to equip a full light bde.
 
All of this aptly coined "mental masturbation" can be neatly summed up in the phrase "SHOW ME THE MONEY"

When the cash comes, the rest of the plan will form quickly. Without it, this light task force is just as ficticious as the one that was just worked out in Wx.

Plus, as was stated on Pg 1, there does'nt exist the governmental cojones to deploy an elite unit anyway.

I still hope this comes to fruition though.
 
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