Future Canadian Airborne Capability and Organisation! Or, is it Redundant? (a merged thread)

[pbi]

GW: I think that you have presented  the essence of the idea: a joint force, focused on getting Canadians to the action, then sustaining them there. In my opinion, the biggest force we could probably maintain in this role is a Bde. Cheers.

 

[excoelis]

You don't think any serving soldiers were pissed at the Somalia scandal, or the hazing videos, or the talk of a regiment "out of control"?

I would suggest that any such new unit would need to be founded on the promise that what Canadians - soldiers and civilians allike - saw in the CAR won't be repeated.   I would like as much as anyone to believe that the hazing and atrocities were the result of a few "bad apples."   Fair enough, it can't be allowed to happen again.

Does anyone disagree with that?   The solution is not to stick our heads in the sand or limit our capabilities, but to be exceedingly careful in how we proceed.

Was the CAR/Somalia an aberration, or is it to be expected from any "elite" warfighting unit.   And if it was simply an aberration, how do you prove that to the politicians, the public, and even other soldiers who may be skeptical?

Thanks for the support Michael.  Just like the old saying "with friends like you.................."

"There are still enough experienced NCOs around from the Airborne Regiment that you have a good nucleus to form the unit around. It wouldn't take any time at all, once the decision's made."

Here's the reality in my biased opinion.  The troops from the Airborne formed the nucleus of JTF2 and the Light Inf Bns.  Who has been on the front line since disbandment?  How much have we embarrassed Canadians "soldier or civilian alike" in this capacity?  I'm not asking to be part of an 'elite' warfighting force.  I only wish to be grouped in a realistical way, with like-minded soldiers, and be given the equipment necessary to fulfill a role that I have no doubt will be asked of me by the public I work for and represent.

In the last year in the service of this country I have seen three good men die.  One was a good friend, one worked for me for the better part of the year preceding his death, and last but not least was the soldier I only wish I had been given the time to get to know better.  In April of this year I ran to the aid of one of my troops who had cracked his pelvis down the middle on a particularly hard landing during a static line plf.  Just last week I ran to the aid of two ppf candidates who during a night freefall descent had a mid air collision resulting in a canopy wrap and plummeted to the ground.  I could go on and on about injuries sustained in the last year by my troops alone.  I only gave the examples I was personally involved with as an example of the impact on one soldier who is trying very hard to maintain a capability in the off chance that the 'powers that be' decide to use him to his full capability.

I left the Airborne as a MCpl and I am now well into WO rank.  I have a lot of qualifications and fortunately still have the mental capacity to pass them on, the physical capacity to lead by example, but possibly most important is that despite what appears at times to be insurmountable odds, I still have the will to do this.

We are fighting a war of attrition.  The longer I spend in the army, the more(by default) I am responsible for specialist duties. 

Shit or get off the pot.

At some point in the future this noble vocation will lose it's luster in my eyes and I will move on.

I think you could pretty much argue that the whole military is living in the same glass house.  So let's all agree to leave the rock throwing out of this.

 

[Kevins833]

When the CAR drew its troops from the reg Inf. units what where their qualification needed to get into the regiment. Was there a tryout type process troops had to go through?

 

[McG]

GW: I think that you have presented   the essence of the idea: a joint force, focused on getting Canadians to the action, then sustaining them there. In my opinion, the biggest force we could probably maintain in this role is a Bde. Cheers.

For force generation, I think the smallest force that can efficiently maintain this (and allow for RRU as a rotating task) would be a Bde.   Having three battalions across three brigades does not make the cut as it does not establish a structure to develop the engineers, artillery, and CSS within a light capacity.  

Anybody who has convinced themselves that infantry can stand alone in a light capacity, has fooled themselves.  The Canadian Airborne Regiment had these other arms.  Our current light force structure does not.

 

[Scott]

Great post excoelis!!!

 

[pbi]

For force generation, I think the smallest force that can efficiently maintain this (and allow for RRU as a rotating task) would be a Bde.  Having three battalions across three brigades does not make the cut as it does not establish a structure to develop the engineers, artillery, and CSS within a light capacity. 

Anybody who has convinced themselves that infantry can stand alone in a light capacity, has fooled themselves. The Canadian Airborne Regiment had these other arms. Our current light force structure does not.

Yes-IMHO Bde is the optimum in our circumstances. It is the smallest, for the reasons you have stated, but it probably also represents the largest force we can realistically consider being able to project/protect/sustain and recover using Canadian military resources (and that would only be achievable with considerable improvement to our jointness and to our expeditionary capability.) Given our recent decisions to strip integral capabilities out of the Infantry and parcel them out to other Branches, you are quite right to say that in our present situation a Light Bn would need additional grouping to be effective. Cheers.

 

[McG]

Such a reorganisation is the only way we could win from the PM's promissed new brigade.

 

[IPC10]

I don't want to break anyone's hearts but the CLS has issued a Capability Development Planning Guidance â “ Light Forces.

In it he states â Å“LFC light forces will not generate an airborne (i.e. parachute assault) capability.  However, parachute delivery skills will be maintained to the extent required by CF tasks assigned to LFC (airborne capability and parachute capability are defined in the reference parachute capability study).â ?

This was in July of 2004.

I think that of the 5000 new regular force positions only 2500-3000 will go to the army.  These PY's could be re-invested in the 'hollow army' syndrome which plagues our tasking processes.  Of course, as mentioned, by the time the money shows up, people are recruited, trained and sent to units could be awhile.

WRT McG comments on

â Å“Anybody who has convinced themselves that infantry can stand alone in a light capacity, has fooled themselves.  The Canadian Airborne Regiment had these other arms.  Our current light force structure does not.â ?

I believe the other arms â “ notably the Engrs and Arty are now included in the Light Forces Working Groups.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

What they say and what ends up happening can be totally different in my experience.

 

[jmacleod]

My friends and I have written many letters to the Minister's of National Defence of the past several years
advocating that the Canadian Parachute Regiment be reformed and placed in the Canadian Army Order
of Battle. Here is an excerpt from a letter from former MND David Pratt. "The land force is in the process
of developing force structure options as part of its modernization effort; however there is no consideration being given to the formation of additional regiments, including parachute forces.
Airborne capability was recently reviewed through an initiative known as the Canadian Forces
Parachute Capability Study. The study has been completed and the matter will be considered as
part of the future Defence Review. For the foreseeable future therefore, the Land Force will
maintain its parachute capability through the three parachute companies located at Canadian
Forces Bases Edmonton, Petewawa and Valcartier". Signed The Honourable David Pratt,PC,MP
Minister. We think the term "Land Force" should read, "Canadian Army", and we have recommended
a model for the possible Canadian Army Airborne Brigade, based on the familier British Army model
MacLeod

 

[G .Dundas]

I'm trying  to remember something I heard some years ago.That when the Airborne regiment was disbanded was'nt there talk of using it to form the cadre of a light infantry brigade?

 

[McG]

I believe the other arms â “ notably the Engrs and Arty are now included in the Light Forces Working Groups.

The Engineers are involved.  I do not know about other arms.

 

[McG]

Don't ya think that maybe, just maybe ... this [Trenton] might be an intriguing location for the campaign promise of a "new" 5,000 person Joint Brigade (... but, NEVER, EVER, EVER calling it the SSF ...)?

If the light battalions were grouped into a single bde that included all the elements necessary to support light and limited special forces ops, why not stick it in Pet where there is already infrastructure?

2 PPCLI could replace 3 PPCLI (which would move to Pet) in Edmonton, and 2 (or 3) CMBG would split itself between Shilo and Gagetown.  This would leave room for a "2 CLBG" or "SSF" in Pet.  2 RCHA would convert to a light regt to sp the light formation, and 1 RCHA would become responsible to sp 1 CMBG and 2 (or 3) CMBG (possible with the transfer of a sub unit + from 2 RCHA).  2 CER would convert to a light regt, and 4 ESR would be re-established as a CER.

 

[TCBF]

Re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

 

[Infanteer]

Re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

How so?

 

[TCBF]

We are again tempted to spend money re-organizing - money better spent training soldiers or buying ammunition - without an increase in capability.  It may increase CONVENIENCE, but convenience is not capability. 

 

[McG]

In a few of our threads, I think positive arguments are made that a light formation would actually increase capability:
All Arms Light Force - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/27631.0.html
How Does the loss of the CAR still affect trg & capability? - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/27589.0.html

 

[Skinny]

http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=31a9fa57-81f0-402c-b870-d8652ef4a051

Ten years after the Canadian Airborne Regiment was disbanded, the army is creating a strike force of fast-moving, highly trained "ranger" troops that will reprise most of the former elite parachute unit's roles, senior army officers have told the National Post.

The planned Light Force will be able to airdrop into trouble spots around the world on its own or as a backup to the commandos of Joint Task Force 2, Canada's secretive special forces unit.

The Light Force, developed in tandem with the defence policy statement released last month, will form the backbone of a new Special Operations Group, which defence planners foresee as the future "911 Force" for military missions abroad or at home.

Lieutenant-Colonel Dave Galea said the new force will be based on the three existing light infantry battalions -- units of about 600 soldiers with light weapons and equipment and almost no vehicles.

"The aim is for the Light Force not to become special forces themselves, but to be trained to support special forces such as JTF-2," he said. "The supporting groups would not need to be trained to the same abilities.

"They will be tactically deployable by air ... by helicopter or in parachute operations."

Lt.-Col. Galea said the new force will be similar to the Canadian Airborne Regiment, disbanded in 1995 after a series of incidents arising from the ill-fated 1992-93 mission in Somalia.

"There are certainly comparisons you could draw, but I don't think what we're talking about is exactly the same," he said. "The parachuting would be limited in scope, parachuting into a permissive environment. So it's parachute operations as opposed to airborne operations."

"But a comparison you could draw to the Airborne Regiment is [that] we're talking about a high-readiness and rapidly deployable force."

Each of the existing battalions includes a "jump" company of 150 paratroopers -- the remnants of the former Canadian Airborne Regiment -- but Lt.-Col. Galea said it has not yet been decided whether the new force will be consolidated into one regiment or brigade. "It's too soon to tell," he said. "We're going to do an estimate on how best to achieve that concept. There are all sorts of ways to skin the same cat."

Dr. Sean Maloney, a professor at the Royal Military College in Kingston, Ont., who specializes in the modern military, said the planned force could be a valuable addition to any Canadian Forces operation overseas.

"These guys will be the pointy end of our strategic rapid-reaction force, which hearkens back to the original role of the old Airborne Regiment," he said.

While JTF-2 commandos perform small-scale, specialized raids, the new force will give them the bulk to do their jobs more effectively, Dr. Maloney said.

"JTF-2 does very precise, surgical operations.... This force will be there to secure the area so they can do their job and move on."

He said the only possible drawback to the planned force is the chance Ottawa may be reluctant to use it for the potentially risky operations for which the soldiers will be trained.

"Once we have this thing, the question is will the government have the inclination to use it," Dr. Maloney said. "I think we should use it. We should get on with it because we're needed out there."

Lt.-Col. Galea said the new force will fill the same role as the U.S. Army's Ranger battalions or the British parachute regiments.

"But they'll also be able to conduct more traditional infantry-type operations," he added. "We're not looking to overly specialize these guys."

The force should be brought into being over the next five years, Lt.-Col. Galea said. "The plan is to take this in steps ... but we'll find a way to make it happen."

The Light Force arose out of the defence policy statement released last month, which called for troops "capable of integrating with Joint Task Force 2 elements" and acting as pathfinders for larger missions -- the first troops on the ground in a new area.

The defence policy committed the Canadian Forces to increasing the size of JTF-2 and its supporting elements as part of the Special Operations Group, a formation that would include JTF-2, a nuclear, biological and chemical defence company based in Trenton, Ont., and the new Light Force.

The Special Operations Group would also include naval and air force elements to transport troops and give them fire support.


Now they just need the planes to get them in :

 

[tomahawk6]

http://www.canada.com/components/printstory/printstory4.aspx?id=31a9fa57-81f0-402c-b870-d8652ef4a051

Latest article about the new battalion. Airborne forces are the ultimate in rapid deployment forces. The ability to go anywhere in the world in a matter of hours is unrivaled.

"Lieutenant-Colonel Dave Galea said the new force will be based on the three existing light infantry battalions -- units of about 600 soldiers with light weapons and equipment and almost no vehicles."

 

[Whiskey_Dan]

Hmm the planes to get them in...well has anyone seen a horse fly lately? 'Cause the chances of getting new planes is as slim as that IMHO.
But what do I know eh? Let's hurry up and wait and see.