FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

[Don2wing]

But sometimes we buy concepts say like the Cyclone. I just want us to be consistent in these matters when there are dollars at stake.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

But sometimes we buy concepts say like the Cyclone. I just want us to be consistent in these matters when there are dollars at stake.

You do realize that the CH-148 is a stretched Sikorsky S-92 /H-92 Superhawk.

 

[Don2wing]

Yes, of course but else is to be flying this aircraft?

 

[aesop081]

Yes, of course but else is to be flying this aircraft?

Who fucking cares ?

What does the CH-148 have to do with FWSAR and the non-existence of the DHC-5NG ?

 

[aesop081]

But sometimes we buy concepts say like the Cyclone. I just want us to be consistent in these matters when there are dollars at stake.

Do you know of a Canadian company that builds naval hellicopters capable of meeting the requirements established by the CF ?

I'm going to guess "NO"

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Cause you asked, those operating the S-92 are:

Operators
Government operators
Kuwait
Emir of Kuwait operates 2 helicopters.
Qatar
Government of Qatar operates 2 helicopters.
South Korea
Government of the Republic of Korea operates 3 helicopters.[8] Introduced into service in November 2007.
Saudi Arabia
Saudi Interior Ministry ordered 16 helicopters at Dubai Airshow November 2007.
Turkey
Government of Turkey operates 1 helicopter.
Turkmenistan
Government of Turkmenistan operates 2 helicopters.
United Kingdom
Her Majesty's Coastguard operates 4 helicopters leased from CHC Helicopter
Thailand
3 ordered for Thai Government

Civil operators
Brunei
Brunei Shell Petroleum – 3
Canada
CHC Helicopter – 12
Cougar Helicopters – 5
People's Republic of China
Eastern General Aviation – 1
Finland
Copterline of Finland – 1
Norway
Aircontactgruppen AS – 6
Norsk Helikopter – 6
Qatar
Gulf Helicopters – 2
United Kingdom
Bristow Helicopters 6
United States
RDV Corporation – 1
Blackwater Worldwide
Bristow – 3
Petroleum Helicopters, Inc (PHI) – 11
Washington Times Aviation – 1

 

[SupersonicMax]

But sometimes we buy concepts say like the Cyclone. I just want us to be consistent in these matters when there are dollars at stake.

H-92 (or CH-148 for us) flew for the first time in 1998.  We awarded the contract in 2004.  Concept?!

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Concept my ass they fly over my house day in and day out bringing workers to the rigs.

 

[geo]

But sometimes we buy concepts say like the Cyclone. I just want us to be consistent in these matters when there are dollars at stake.

Don,
Viking bought the design rights & paper plans from Bombardier/DeHaviland.
The original tools & jiggs needed to form and make the old Buffalo don't exist anymore.
If you want to build those new Buffalo-next generation, you have to go back to the drawing board, CADredraw your old designs, make your modifications, build the new tools & jiggs, build your prototype, get Air Safety to approve the prototype and then build your new plane.... so Viking is a long way off from building and delivering on any new order.  Also, given that there are no orders are in yet, the full design cost of the plane would have to be financed on our order - cause there is no telling if someone else will buy the NG edition....

A long way off & I don't think we have the luxury of time necessary to do it that way.

 

[McG]

I am not suggesting that the majority of planes purchased by DND be built in Canada as in the 1950's but that a lowly transport plane could be built in Canada. This is not just about keeping up with the Jones and their cars rather more the economic development of Canada. Other countries such as the United States use their military purchases for the development of their industrial base and companies to allow American companies to be leaders in the world in those sectors.

So are we followers or leaders?

Don2wing,
Your plea attempts to leverage peoples’ emotions and patriotism, but it also ignores realities to the point that it grossly misrepresents the situation.  The government of Canada does not need to buy a Canadian built plane in order to develop Canadian industrial base.  In fact, it has been shown that throwing defence dollars into establishing/propping-up a business does not work.  When the contract with DND runs its course, the business is left with nothing to sustain itself, and it goes under (in the case of major systems such as vehicles or aircraft, this creates a situation where DND must now live with grossly inflated lifecycle costs related to a system with no industrial support).

I recommend you look into the reality of IRBs.  They see winning vendors obligated to spend the equivalent of the contracts full dollar value on work in Canada.  This reinforces independently viable elements already within in our industry.  It makes a lot more sense.

http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/83535.0.html

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Who fucking cares ?

What does the CH-148 have to do with FWSAR and the non-existence of the DHC-5NG ?

Exactly, MODS time for a topic split please.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Don2wing,
Your plea attempts to leverage peoples’ emotions and patriotism, but it also ignores realities to the point that it grossly misrepresents the situation.  The government of Canada does not need to buy a Canadian built plane in order to develop Canadian industrial base.  In fact, it has been shown that throwing defence dollars into establishing/propping-up a business does not work.  When the contract with DND runs its course, the business is left with nothing to sustain itself, and it goes under (in the case of major systems such as vehicles or aircraft, this creates a situation where DND must now live with grossly inflated lifecycle costs related to a system with no industrial support).

I recommend you look into the reality of IRBs.  They see winning vendors obligated to spend the equivalent of the contracts full dollar value on work in Canada.  This reinforces independently viable elements already within in our industry.  It makes a lot more sense.

http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/83535.0.html.

And a couple of good examples of this is the LSVW/Western Star plant in BC(?) and the HLVW/Steryr plant in ONT(?). Both of them are now gone.

 

[aesop081]

This is not just about keeping up with the Jones and their cars rather more the economic development of Canada.

This isnt about keeping up with the Jones or economic development.

This is about equiping our SAR units with what they need to fucking SAVE LIVES !

Not one company in this country offers and aircraft that can do the job. Simple as that. You can argue for a canadian-made solution all you want, you can't get around the fact that there are none at this time, and none will be available in an acceptable time frame.

 

[YZT580]

This isnt about keeping up with the Jones or economic development.

This is about equiping our SAR units with what they need to ******* SAVE LIVES !

On this note, if the intent is to save lives, why are we still basing a/c in southern Canada with such great distances to cover to the north and also to the east coast.  None of the candidate a/c offer a transit time of less than 4 hours and that is a lot of time.  It seems ludicrous to ridicule the Buff with its 180 knot speed when the c27 is still going to take forever to respond.  Maybe more, less capable aircraft located in multiple locations is better than better a/c in centralized locales.

 

[aesop081]

Fuck it...you guys know best...........

 

[Nfld Sapper]

This isnt about keeping up with the Jones or economic development.

This is about equiping our SAR units with what they need to ******* SAVE LIVES !

On this note, if the intent is to save lives, why are we still basing a/c in southern Canada with such great distances to cover to the north and also to the east coast.  None of the candidate a/c offer a transit time of less than 4 hours and that is a lot of time.  It seems ludicrous to ridicule the Buff with its 180 knot speed when the c27 is still going to take forever to respond.  Maybe more, less capable aircraft located in multiple locations is better than better a/c in centralized locales.

Hence why they use the god damn hercs, Buffalos are used only in BC .

EDITED TO FIX QUOTING BOXES

 

[geo]

Maybe more, less capable aircraft located in multiple locations is better than better a/c in centralized locales.

Umm... that's why we have SAR resources in the following locations....

103 Rescue Squadron, Gander, Newfoundland
413 Transport and Rescue Squadron, Greenwood, Nova Scotia
424 Transport and Rescue Squadron, Trenton, Ontario
435 Transport and Rescue Squadron, Winnipeg, Manitoba
442 Transport and Rescue Squadron, Comox, British Columbia

 

[Nfld Sapper]

:brickwall:

 

[dapaterson]

If I may summarize the past few pages of discussions*:

We've made procurement mistakes buying unproven equipment from foreign companies.  To even things out, we should hire a Canadian company without even a production line open to provide us with aircraft that don't meet our needs.


(*edit because even I was appalled by how bad my typing was...)

 

[Journeyman]

Oh go on, it just sounds silly when you say it that way