G Wagon C&R

[Lost_Warrior]

The window's dont roll down

The windows on our MilCots roll down....

in the up armour variant

Since when was there an up armour variant of the MilCot?

 

[KevinB]

Lost,

Where talking about armoured vehicles -- no on is goign to really use a soft skin MILCOT in a theatre.

BTW BigRed's in Iraq so listening to his TTP's may be a wee bit insightful...

 

[Lost_Warrior]

Where talking about armoured vehicles -- no on is goign to really use a soft skin MILCOT in a theatre.

Obviously, but when I mentioned rolling the windows down, I was tefering to the milCot..

 

[Lost_Warrior]

If you don't have a turret and the windows are not armoured that is probably what you *should* be doing to provide security.

If the doors and windows are armoured, crack the doors to provide security when you are still or approaching a threat, ie. slip roads or fast movers.

Makes sense...but I don't see my crew commander ever letting me stick my C7 out the window of our MilCots...

Atleast our G-Wagons are getting the turret, so we can have someone providing vehicle security WHEN we eventually get them...

 

[Sh0rtbUs]

Our unit, operating with the iltis has always operated with the C6 strapped to the hood, in the Passengers position (Crew Commander).

While the Observer is dismounted clearing laterals or verfying the security of a next bound ie. false crest or blind turns, the CC is always at the ready with the C6 providing support as the observer moves (usually grabs up the handset and lends an ear at the same time, while the Driver twittles his thumbs, awaiting orders to move. Thats the way we've always done it...

With the G-Wagon, its a hit and miss situation. If the CC is in the Turret, he has an excellent field of vision and firepower (similar to his role in the Iltis) but has poor communication with the Driver and Observer as his head is whistling in the wind, out of the vehicle. If he is in the Passengers seat, he has excellent communication with the driver but with less visibility, as well as what was stated prior. The Observer will dismount, leaving the support weapon unmanned and useless, as well as lots of swearing as he's attempting to haul his *** out of the turret every time he's told to dismount.

Either way, its going to really depend on the situation at hand.

With the MILCOT, just flash your high beams at the enemy and yell "bang bang" over and over...  ;D

 

[Lost_Warrior]

You guys still operate the Iltis?  I thought it was being phased out last year.  I'm assuming QYRANG is keeping their fleet of Iltis until they get replaced?

How hard is it getting them repaired?  I have heard stories of mechanics saying no to repairing the vehicles because they are "phasing them out"...(although I was never able to confirm that)

I wish we still had a few around.  It's chaos doing recce in a MilCot.  You can't go off road, the body is like paper (every branch and stick dents and scratches it)...among other things.

 

[George Wallace]

Some of these posts are getting ROTL, so I suggest we give it a rest until we get more G Wagens into the System and start really putting them to the test.

 

[George Wallace]

Kev

Yes we are using the G Wagen now in Afghanistan and at home as an "Adm" veh.   We are not yet using G Wagens in any great numbers in the Armd Recce role.   Until we do, there are going to be endless debates about theories and such that may not even have relevance on the way we start to employ them.   We have covered over five pages on this up to now and some of the more recent contributers to this thread haven't read any of it yet.   We are going around in circles (STRAC) and getting nowhere.   Once we do start getting greater numbers of the G Wagen and we do start using it in Armd Recce, then we will be better able to continue this discussion.   Right now we have inexperience troopers posting nonscience.

 

[Sh0rtbUs]

Kev

Yes we are using the G Wagen now in Afghanistan and at home as an "Adm" veh.  We are not yet using G Wagens in any great numbers in the Armd Recce role.  Until we do, there are going to be endless debates about theories and such that may not even have relevance on the way we start to employ them.  We have covered over five pages on this up to now and some of the more recent contributers to this thread haven't read any of it yet.  We are going around in circles (STRAC) and getting nowhere.  Once we do start getting greater numbers of the G Wagen and we do start using it in Armd Recce, then we will be better able to continue this discussion.  Right now we have inexperience troopers posting nonscience.

Then lock it until then...

So far, everything I've posted is straight from what im seeing. If you've any issue with it, or feel something im saying is "nonscience", then please say so.

Lost_Warrior, from what i've seen, there isnt too much of an issue with getting the veh techs in working on them. I've done only 1 Recce with a MILCOT, and i feel your pain. On the other hand, you cant complain about the warm/dry factor  ;D

 

[KevinB]

When we used the Nissans and Toyota's in Afghan we stuck our C8's out the window...  When we got the G Wagon - we did not get the C&R at first, When I drove I kept the C8 in my lap so If nec I coudl crack the door and let someone "know"...  When we got the C&R it made a whole bunch of new problems.

IMHO one again as a 031 - I think the "armoured" recce guys are best going with a 4 man det (like the Coyote crews).


Secondly as a bunch of us noted in Afghan and while I was chatting to Big Red today we agreed that a up armoured - but open top / half doored G Wagon woudl likely be the best combo - to both see the sights and interact / and provide some protection.
As far as small arms fire protection I think we are better off being open and using aimed fire to take out the source.

Secondly I would suggest the only true fix to reserve armoured recce is to re-roll them or simply give them Coyote's as NO ONE is going to be conduction operations like those units train for these days. --- OR Give them C&R G Wagons and use them operationally for convoy escort.

 

[Gayson]

My understanding is that the 6A taught at the school this summer had the crew commander in the hatch.

DG

I know a couple of Mcpls who finished the first DP3 with Gwagons this summer.  Since the guidelines weren't written yet, the CC's trained in both the front passenger seat and the rear gunners seat.  Based upon experience and experimentation on the course, it was decided that the crew commander will sit in the front.  Though I suppose the seating arrangements is a CC's decision.

 

[MPIKE]

From what I have done in the short time I have been in the army, no one in the crew is directly responsable for "security" of the vehicle or patrol.....but then again, we are using MilCots for recce...

You can't really stick your C7 out the window of one of them to provide any kind of effective vehicle security.

Maybe someone with more experience with the G-Wagon can tell you.

LW,
I think it's important to remember this simple equation.  Milcots equals Training aid.  The use of the Milcot at your and my level does not mean that it has become official doctrine.  We use the Milcot because they are available and allow us to at least practice some of the tactics rather than endless sandtable theory.  We are all aware of the endless limitations of driving a civie pattern truck while trying to train.  You refer to so called  Milcot tactics and try to impose them onto GW tactics and this is just a waste of typing energy.  When the C&R arrives you can be rest assured that those at the Armour School, The Centre of Excellence will sort out how we will use them.  Until then, may I suggest that if you have Milcot issues then start a new thread on it.

For your security point, I would say that the responsibility falls to a good commander and it's implementation would be the Observer's job.  The fact that you are not aware of your responsibilities would suggest that you were failed in getting a proper crew brief or you were not CC'd by a qualified person.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Let's try make this simple. Armoured recce is FLEXIBLE. The Crew Commander, in armoured Recce, is the master of their domain (his/her C/S). Until, someone, including the CofE, develops a doctrine that will fit every known and unkown situation, it will still be up to the CC where they sit. I've CC'd from the front and the back, it was my decision. Not the School's or the Troopies. When you've got enough experience to make your own decision, make it. IF you know your job, properly, no one will have to tell you where to sit, nor should they. Armoured Reccce crewmen are known for their ingenuity and immediate adaption to a given, or suprise, situation. Until then follow the example of your Tp WO & Ptl Cmdr, that's one of the reasons he's there, and make sure you ask why he's doing something, if you don't understand.

I don't see a whole lot of reason to continue this until each unit has their own G wagons and has had a chance to try things out for themselves. Any Blackhatter worth his salt doesn't take all his learning from a book or being told how to do something by someone else. Try it out first for yourself on ex, and the canned, do as I say scenarios that come from the school don't count.

We'll close this one shortly, and temporarily, until the Armoured Recce users get some experience.