GBAD - The return of 'FOBS'

[Kirkhill]

Which became the USAF…

Because the Army wasn’t a good place to put the Air Force.
And yes, that split has ended up causing other issues.

Perhaps the Air Force, like the Navy, should have had its own Army - like Goering's Fallschirmjaeger.

After all the Army has its own Air Force and Navy. Hell, even the Navy's Army has its own Navy and Air Force.

 

[FJAG]

When I did my Napkin Military I made different element commands with some overlap, but mostly separate, and had sub sections cut for specific tasks.

Air Force was split into Transport and Air Dominance.

I created a whole new Element of Tactical Aviation for Rotary wing, Ground Support Aviation and UAS. Mainly as from what is seen in Canada and down here the ‘true’ Air Force always seem to be Fighter focused - and other tasks that aren’t as “sexy” tend to get ignored.

The split between the Army and Air Force (and Navy too) down here after the implementation of National Security Agreement of 1947 (unification under one Department of Defense) was so bad that the subsequent 1947 Key West Agreement wasn’t even adhered to until the Korean War, and further refining was required in 1952, 1954 and 1966.


It wasn’t just funding issues - but roles that were claimed to justify those funding requirements were being abused (or abandoned). Stop me if you’ve seen this before

10 TAG enters the chat.

 

[KevinB]

Perhaps the Air Force, like the Navy, should have had its own Army - like Goering's Fallschirmjaeger.

After all the Army has its own Air Force and Navy. Hell, even the Navy's Army has its own Navy and Air Force.

Well since the NSA of 1947 the USMC isn’t under the Dept of the Navy (there being no separate Departments now as all under DoD even thought there remains a Secretary of the Navy) It is its own separate entity legally although still considered part of the Naval Service.

But you do bring up the issue of the fact that parent services aren’t likely to support things they don’t see a direct need for, and will support duplicate efforts if they think they need something (the whole Space Force debacle being a prime example of this behavior).

Helicopters, specifically armed helicopters in the late 50’s and early 60’s was another battleground. With the Air Force claiming the role, but not implementing anything. But the whole Army Chinook program was fought by the Air Force as well back then.

 

[GR66]

APKWS/CRV-7 application.

US Army gets new 70mm laser rocket counter-drone systems

The US Army has received six MSI's Electronic Advanced Ground Launcher Systems (EAGLS) to enhance its counter-drone capabilities.

interestingengineering.com

View attachment 87610

Some videos on Defence Blog showing the Ukrainians using their VAMPIRE system to down Russian UAVs. Looks to be a good tool in the shed for taking out the type of recce quad-copters shown being taken out in the video and something that can be domestically produced.

Not sure how effective they are against low-and-fast FPVs or loitering munitions though. I imagine those types of targets are much more difficult to gain and maintain a laser lock, which highlights (again) that there is no single solution to the growing AD problem and multiple systems will be required to take out different types of threats.

[edited to fix article link]

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Going by what we are seeing in the videos coming out of Ukraine. Pretty much every 2nd truck in a convoy is going to need an air guard with a ring mounted belt fed LMG for local defense against the FPV attacks. The fancier SHORAD stuff can attack the reconnaissance drones. LMG's combined with EW equipment is likley the most economical way to protect a convoy.

 

[AmmoTech90]

Going by what we are seeing in the videos coming out of Ukraine. Pretty much every 2nd truck in a convoy is going to need an air guard with a ring mounted belt fed LMG for local defense against the FPV attacks. The fancier SHORAD stuff can attack the reconnaissance drones. LMG's combined with EW equipment is likley the most economical way to protect a convoy.

Every truck on the Brit convoys I did in Afghanistan had a GPMG on a ring mount...except maybe the Pinz that the FAC/JTAC rolled in.

Or 40mm on WIMIKs or Jackels.

No reason for any serious log organization not to do the same. I know if we had to stop in an urban area, or even small village with a T-junction, I'd want someone watching my back. Doubly so if things could cruise in from the sky.

 

[FJAG]

Every truck on the Brit convoys I did in Afghanistan had a GPMG on a ring mount...except maybe the Pinz that the FAC/JTAC rolled in.

Or 40mm on WIMIKs or Jackels.

No reason for any serious log organization not to do the same. I know if we had to stop in an urban area, or even small village with a T-junction, I'd want someone watching my back. Doubly so if things could cruise in from the sky.

Interesting observation. Back in the cold war days our deuce gun tractors didn't have roof hatches, but we rolled back the first part of the tarp and had detachment members standing with C2s as air sentry lookouts. That of course does not work for a logistics convoy where there is no one in the cargo compartment to man any weapon. Take that to the next step for the proponents of autonomous follow-the-leader logistics vehicles which are totally unmanned and undefended.

 

[Kirkhill]

Interesting observation. Back in the cold war days our deuce gun tractors didn't have roof hatches, but we rolled back the first part of the tarp and had detachment members standing with C2s as air sentry lookouts. That of course does not work for a logistics convoy where there is no one in the cargo compartment to man any weapon. Take that to the next step for the proponents of autonomous follow-the-leader logistics vehicles which are totally unmanned and undefended.

Manned TAPVs with C-UAS mixed through the packet with autonomous "trailers" playng follow the leader.

 

[Kirkhill]

Lasers aren't ready for prime time?

U.S. Military Laser Weapon Programs Are Facing A Reality Check

The quiet end of a laser for fighter jets speaks to continued challenges in fielding operationally-relevant battlefield laser weapons.

www.twz.com

So a new M-SHORAD

Counter-Drone Stryker Armored Vehicle Armed With Lasers, Rockets, Guns Unveiled

The new Stryker aims to offer the Army another layer of highly mobile lower-tier air defense capability to help rebuff drone attacks.

www.twz.com

Laser included but...

Backups include 70mm APKWS, 30mm XM914 and 7.62mm M240B.
Admittedly the APKWS is laser guided but that only needs to be a low power laser (doesn't it?) Or does a higher power laser extend the accurate range of the APKWS?

 

[AmmoTech90]

It's late and I'm tired, but I have to think that autonomous, unarmed vehicles are perfect targets for suicide bombers (yesterday's war), tethered drones/ground vehicles (today's war), and probably whatever will come next (guy with a laser/LED dazzler or air rifle messing with the follow sensor?)

Do you use lethal force on someone using non lethal force on a piece of equipment? It's not weapon or crypto, hopefully the follow vehicle fails safe and just stops so there's no risk to human life. Kid runs up to throw a bag over the sensor. Convoy stops and unbags sensor. 30 seconds later it happens again. We don't shot kids with garbage bags do we?

It's a tricky question.

 

[Kirkhill]

https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2024/10/14/army-moving-towards-counter-uxs-capabilities-interoperability

One of the things that makes countering drones and other unmanned land or sea-based systems difficult is the threat is “not limited to conflict,” Brig. Gen. Patrick Costello, commanding general of the 94th Army Air and Missile Defense Command, said at the panel discussion.

“This is a peacetime threat and a conflict-based threat,” he said. “You don't have to be in war to have a UAS problem, and that shapes a lot of the ways that we look at this.”

https://www.wsj.com/politics/national-security/drones-military-pentagon-defense-331871f4?st=GUkcZS

For several nights, military personnel had reported a mysterious breach of restricted airspace over a stretch of land that has one of the largest concentrations of national-security facilities in the U.S. The show usually starts 45 minutes to an hour after sunset, another senior leader told Kelly.

Federal law prohibits the military from shooting down drones near military bases in the U.S. unless they pose an imminent threat. Aerial snooping doesn’t qualify, though some lawmakers hope to give the military greater leeway.

.....

Again - GBAD at civil and military airfields as well as other VPs is a thing - even during peacetime.

 

[Kirkhill]

Meanwhile, proximity rounds for the LAVs and Apaches. Eventually. Radar for the LAVs?

With new bullets, the Army wants to turn Apaches and Bradleys into drone killers

With a new bullet designed to explode near its target, Apache attack helicopters may soon be a key defender against drone threats.

taskandpurpose.com

the Army is testing a 25mm round for Bradley Fighting Vehicles and a 30mm round for Apache helicopters that use proximity sensors to detect and destroy drones, said Army Lt. Col. Saleem Khan, product manager for medium caliber ammunition.

The XM1228 Bradley Aerial Defeat Group Enhanced Round, or BADGER, is a 25mm round that is meant to provide mechanized units protection against drones, Khan told Task & Purpose on Monday.

The BADGER is “really in very early stages of development,” Khan said. The Army will be conducting developmental testing on the BADGER next month, and it is scheduled to undergo live-fire testing this summer, Khan said.

Separately, the Army is testing the XM1225 Aviation Proximity Explosive, or APEX, a dual-purpose round for Apache helicopters. Khan said. The 30mm round is designed to airburst so that it can take out drones.

The XM1225 would be the first major enhancement for the Apache helicopter’s 30mm cannon in 30 years, Khan said.

 

[GK .Dundas]

I suspect the XM 1225 round would be perfect for dealing with Infantry in the open . As would it's 25 mm cousin.

 

[GK .Dundas]

https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2024/10/14/army-moving-towards-counter-uxs-capabilities-interoperability

https://www.wsj.com/politics/national-security/drones-military-pentagon-defense-331871f4?st=GUkcZS

.....

Again - GBAD at civil and military airfields as well as other VPs is a thing - even during peacetime.

It now appears that the gap between peace and war may now be measured in half second increments.
Disturbing to say the least.

 

[FJAG]

New paper by Watling and Bronk: "Protecting the Force from UAS".

https://static.rusi.org/protecting-the-force-from-uncrewed-uas.pdf