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Georgia and the Russian invasions/annexations/Lebensraum (2008 & 2015)

meni0n said:
Given the Russians broke the ceasefire and again advancing in Georgia, how can anyone actually believe what most of Russian state controlled media has to say.

I forgot to address the last point. The Russians did not break the ceasefire and did not again continue advancing into Georgia. There is not proof whatsoever of this occuring besides the rambling of Mr. Saakashvili, but given his bombing of civilian targets in Tshinivali, how can I believe anything that man has to say? The Russian media is not state controlled and again if you actually knew anything about Russian media (or your own, for that matter) you would know that there are 3 state owned channels in Russia - Ch. 1, Ch. Russia, and NTV, which isn't a big stretch from Canada's own "state media", the CBC. In fact, Russians agreed to the ceasefire completely of their own accord. If I remember correctly, Russia was winning the war, so if they wanted to continue advancing deep into Georgia, they would just not accept a ceasefire. It doesn't make sense for Russia to accept a ceasefire they DID NOT NEED TO ACCEPT and then break it. I like how your imaginings completely break all rules of logic and common sense all for the sake of trying to believe CNN.

I would also like to mention again that the Russian shot down more Georgian spy planes, which also break the ceasefire on the part of Georgia.

Cheers!
 
Haggis said:
It's interesting, oligarch, that all the footage apprearing on YouTube is originating from the Russian/South Ossetian sides.  Could that be part of the plan in the DOS (Denial of Service) attacks on Georgian Internet infrasturcture?  In the absence of two sides to a story, the only side seen must be taken as the truth.  Information Warfare at it's finest.  In this case, my hat is off to the Russians.

Now, I would ask you to review this story from CANOE (shared with the usual disclaimer) and comment, objectively and without passion, please.
Russia says 'forget Georgian territorial integrity'

Which side are you hoping to see footage from? I'm sure the Georgian side would not post videos of their own crimes on the internet. I mean I know the Georgian leadership has not shown itself to be too bright in the recent days, but they aren't THAT stupid!
 
Another local clip to read up on.

http://www.thespec.com/News/BreakingNews/article/418559


Once again two sides saying things both true and false on both sides. I do believe that there are innocent people trapped in the middle(as is always the case of war) and that the people on all sides in charge of things are looking to make a statement that regardless of the outcome they are prepared for the next step if peace isn't found.

Just more posturing on all sides in carving up the last of our worlds resources before there is none left to fight over.


Cheers.
 
oligarch said:
Not really sure what you mean. DOS attacks could be organized by anyone with a few servers at his disposal. Like I said earlier, I can pay someone I know in Russia 500 bucks and army.ca would go down for a day. So anyone in Russia with an axe to grind could be doing it, and believe me, there are people in Russia who are not happy about what Mr. Saakashvili is doing.

What I mean is that it would be disingenious to not link the two events:  DOS attacks and sole source posting of YouTube videos from within the country subject to the DOS attacks.  I'm not saying that the DOS attacks are (were) state sponsored.  But why not?

oligarch said:
Which side are you hoping to see footage from? I'm sure the Georgian side would not post videos of their own crimes on the internet.

Clearly the Georgians have not posted anything as they have not, as a consquence of the DOS attacks, had the capability of doing so.  Secondly, I'm sure the Georgians aren't the only ones shelling things.  Or is Russian artillery and air attack so surgically accurate as to not casue any collateral damage, like that seen in Gori?

So, do you have any comment on the link I posted?
 
oligarch, there is no proof that is Georgian grad, only you and the Russian tv that is airing the video. For all we know, it is a footage from an exercise put in for dramatic purposes. But Russia DID accept a ceasefire and then broke it. You can't say, well I made a promise to do something but I didn't HAVE to do it so I broke my promise. If you do that, no one will ever trust you as you got no integrity. The Russian media is used by the government for their own purposes, if the stations don't comply, well take a look at what happend to TVS.
 
meni0n said:
I have watched these videos, Bombardment of russian escort is just an attack on an advancing convoy, 7th August artillery, is also interesting, where did these russian journalists got all this close up footage as the newscast said, at the time of the Artillery strike, they were evacuated from the area, so how do they get film of artillery firing miles away, being almost to the side of it. All these videos have is just a few shots of shot up downtown Tshinivali ( which the newscast guy actually specifies ) and amazing Russian media disinformation.

Given the Russians broke the ceasefire and again advancing in Georgia, how can anyone actually believe what most of Russian state controlled media has to say.

Believe me, I don't know who told you that the Russian media had been 'evacuated', but whoever it was, they lied.

Haggis, I'll read up on your link later. There are plenty of Georgian videos on youtube, go ahead and search for them. You'll probably need to know Georgian in order to understand them, however. I don't, so it is a bit difficult for me type in that language. Russian, however, I know very well.

Secondly, I'm not sure you understand what DOS attacks are. They don't shut down "the internet", they shut down certain servers. Mostly, these servers hold websites. They don't prevent you from uploading information to a site like youtube, which is not hosted in Georgia to the best of my knowledge. In order to prevent uploading of videos onto youtube you would have to hack into Georgian ISPs, which is a lot more difficult to orchestrate than a DOS attack. It appears you are fishing.
 
meni0n said:
oligarch, there is no proof that is Georgian grad, only you and the Russian tv that is airing the video. For all we know, it is a footage from an exercise put in for dramatic purposes. But Russia DID accept a ceasefire and then broke it. You can't say, well I made a promise to do something but I didn't HAVE to do it so I broke my promise. If you do that, no one will ever trust you as you got no integrity. The Russian media is used by the government for their own purposes, if the stations don't comply, well take a look at what happend to TVS.

lol... then there is no proof of Russia breaking the ceasefire is there? The little girl on CNN is also an actress. Everyone who has been following the developments in South Ossetia before CNN broke the news knows this. You, evidently, believe that everything is orchestrated by the Russians and nothing I do or say will prove it otherwise to you. I guess the truth you seek is in South Ossetia, you will have to see it with your own eyes because I've posted countless images and videos. The destroyed city is Tshinivali is also the aftermath of an excersie photoshoped in for dramatic effect, and the 1600 dead? There is no proof of the Russians even being in Gori, according to your logic. Well done... or do you expect a different standard of proof for the Russians than you expect of the Georgians. I could continue posting videos and images on here but you will continue discounting them just like everything else non-CNN!!

With regard to Russian media, if they don't comply, they continue broadcasting, just like RenTV, RTVi, and others. There is also free access to western media in Russia. Nice try!

If you are trying to prove to me that certain people in Russia have sway with the media, you don't have to prove that to me. But believe me, there is no such thing as independent media except the lowly underground papers nobody really has access to. To believe otherwise is simply naive.
 
oligarch said:
Haggis, I'll read up on your link later. There are plenty of Georgian videos on youtube, go ahead and search for them. You'll probably need to know Georgian in order to understand them, however. I don't, so it is a bit difficult for me type in that language. Russian, however, I know very well.

I will.  in the meantime, would it not be fair for you to upload some as well, in order to present a balanced argument for Georgain criminal activity?

oligarch said:
Secondly, I'm not sure you understand what DOS attacks are. They don't shut down "the internet", they shut down certain servers. Mostly, these servers hold websites. They don't prevent you from uploading information to a site like youtube, which is not hosted in Georgia to the best of my knowledge. In order to prevent uploading of videos onto youtube you would have to hack into Georgian ISPs, which is a lot more difficult to orchestrate than a DOS attack. It appears you are fishing.

I don't fish.  It's boring.

I am familiar with DOS and other cyberwarfare/cybercrime methods.  That's why I alluded to these "attacks" (DOS included) possibly being state sponsored.  Yes, it's difficult to bring down an ISP, but there are few in Georgia and it's not impossible and improbable that Russia devoted the resources to do so, given the amount of "hard" combat power Russia has unleashed upon the Georgians.
 
"In war, truth is the first casualty."

Aeschylus
Greek tragic dramatist (525 BC - 456 BC)

Let's just hope this doesn't get out of control...
 
Haggis....didn't you work/ live in Georgia for a while?

Regards
 
Denial of Service -- you cant get on the net -- when China hacked the US DoS and hit them with Denial of Service we where offline for a few days when I was working for them in Kabul.

FYI we have some Georgians here where I work, one lost family when the Russians levelled his village - he just found out today and is leaving on emergency leave tomorrow.

oligarch you seem to be a Russian mouth piece - please give it a break.
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080814/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia_144

Fair dealings and all that.

Russia: 'Forget' Georgian territorial integrity

By CHRISTOPHER TORCHIA, Associated Press Writer Thu Aug 14, 10:33 AM ET

GORI, Georgia - Russia's foreign minister declared Thursday that the world "can forget about" Georgia's territorial integrity, and American and Georgian officials said Russia appeared to be targeting military infrastructure — including radars and patrol boats at a Black Sea naval base and oil hub.
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An AP Television News crew in the oil port city of Poti saw one destroyed Georgian military boat, and two Russian armored vehicles and two Russian transport trucks. Soldiers who identified themselves as Russian peacekeepers blocked the crew from going further.

Russia's president met in the Kremlin with the leaders of Georgia's two separatist provinces — a clear sign that Moscow could absorb the regions. The comments from Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov appeared to come as a challenge to the United States, where President Bush has called for Russia to respect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Georgia."

The Russian refusal to withdraw from Georgia presents a challenge to the cease-fire agreement designed to end seven days of fighting. The EU-sponsored accord had envisioned Russian and Georgian forces returning to their original positions.

In Washington, an American official said Russia appears to be sabotaging airfields and other military infrastructure as its forces pull back. The U.S. official described eyewitnesses accounts for The Associated Press on condition of anonymity. The official said the Russian strategy seems like a deliberate attempt to cripple the already battered Georgian military.

The United States poured aid into the Georgian capital of Tbilisi on Thursday and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice launched emergency talks in France aimed at heading off a wider conflict.

Russia's deputy chief of General Staff Col.-Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn said he was not sure that the U.S. planes carried exclusively humanitarian cargo. "It causes our concern," he said.

At least 20 explosions were heard near Gori, along with small-arms fire. It could not immediately be determined if the blasts were a renewal of fighting between Georgian and Russian forces, but they sounded similar to mortar shells and occurred after a tense confrontation between Russian and Georgian troops on the edge of the city.

The strategically located city is 15 miles south of South Ossetia, the Russian-backed separatist region where Russian and Georgian forces fought a five-day battle. Russian troops entered Gori on Wednesday, after the two sides signed the cease-fire.

In Washington, a Pentagon official said U.S. intelligence had assessed that the number of Russians in Gori was small — about 100 to 200 troops. But the Russian presence in Gori, only 60 miles west of Tbilisi, was viewed as a demonstration of the vulnerability of the capital.

Nogovitsyn said Russian troops went to Gori to establish contact with local civilian administration and take control over military depots left behind by the Georgian forces. "The abandoned weapons needed protection," he said.

Georgian government officials who went into the city for the possible handover left unexpectedly around midday, followed by a checkpoint confrontation outside Gori which ended when Russian tanks sped toward the area and Georgian police quickly retreated.

A Russian general in Gori had said Wednesday it would take at least two days to leave the city.

Besides the hundreds killed since hostilities broke out, the United Nations estimates 100,000 Georgians have been uprooted; Russia says some 30,000 residents of South Ossetia fled into the neighboring Russian province of North Ossetia.

Russian troops also appeared to be settling in elsewhere in Georgia outside the breakaway provinces of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

"One can forget about any talk about Georgia's territorial integrity because, I believe, it is impossible to persuade South Ossetia and Abkhazia to agree with the logic that they can be forced back into the Georgian state," Lavrov told reporters.

The White House bluntly rejected Lavrov's message.

"Our position on Georgia's territorial integrity is not going to change no matter what anybody says," White House press secretary Dana Perino said Thursday. "And so I would consider that to be bluster from the foreign minister of Russia. We will ignore it."

Georgia's coast guard said Russian troops had burned patrol boats and destroyed radars and other equipment at the port city of Poti, home to Georgia's main naval base and a major hub for oil exports to Europe. The APTN crew saw one destroyed boat, about 60 feet long.

On Poti's outskirts, the APTN crew followed a different convoy of Russian troops as they searched a forest for Georgian military equipment.

Nogovitsyn avoided comment on the Russian presence in Poti, saying only that Russian forces were operating within their "area of responsibility."

Another APTN camera crew saw Russian soldiers and military vehicles parked Thursday inside the Georgian government's elegant, heavily-gated residence in the western town of Zugdidi. Some of the soldiers wore blue peacekeeping helmets, others wore green camouflage helmets, all were heavily armed. The scene underlined how closely the soldiers Russia calls peacekeepers are allied with its military.

"The Russian troops are here. They are occupying," Ygor Gegenava, an elderly Zugdidi resident told the APTN crew. "We don't want them here. What we need is friendship and good relations with the Russian people."

Georgia, bordering the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia, was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the 1991 breakup of the Soviet Union.

A steady, dejected trickle of Georgian refugees fled the front line in overloaded cars, trucks and tractor-pulled wagons, heading to Tbilisi on the road from Gori. One Soviet-era car carried eight people, including a mother and a baby in the front seat. The open back door of a small blue van revealed at least a dozen people crowded inside.

The Russian General Prosecutor's office on Thursday said it has formally opened a genocide probe into Georgian treatment of South Ossetians. For its part, Georgia this week filed a suit against Russia in the International Court of Justice, alleging murder, rape and mass expulsions in both provinces.

More homes in deserted ethnic Georgian villages were apparently set ablaze Wednesday, sending clouds of smoke over the foothills north of Tskhinvali, capital of breakaway South Ossetia.

One Russian colonel, who refused to give his name, blamed the fires on looters.

Those with ethnic Georgian backgrounds who have stayed behind — like 70-year-old retired teacher Vinera Chebataryeva — seem increasingly unwelcome in South Ossetia.

As she stood sobbing in her wrecked apartment near the center of Tskhinvali, Chebataryeva said a skirmish between Ossetian soldiers and a Georgian tank had gouged the two gaping shell holes in her wall, bashing in her piano and destroying her furniture.

Janna Kuzayeva, an ethnic Ossetian neighbor, claimed the Georgian tank fired the shell at Chebataryeva's apartment.

"We know for sure her brother spied for Georgians," said Kuzayeva. "We let her stay here, and now she's blaming everything on us."

North of Tskhinvali, a number of former Georgian communities have been abandoned in the last few days. "There isn't a single Georgian left in those villages," said Robert Kochi, a 45-year-old South Ossetian.

But he had little sympathy for his former Georgian neighbors. "They wanted to physically uproot us all," he said. "What other definition is there for genocide?"

___

Associated Press writers Misha Dzhindzhikhavili in Tbilisi; Mansur Mirovalev in Tskhinvali, Georgia; Jim Heintz in Moscow; and Anne Gearan, Matthew Lee and Pauline Jelinek in Washington contributed to this report.
 
JackD said:
Actually I wouldn't use the term ''Commie-lovers'' - I'd say this is just a continuation of the ''Great Game''- the Russia-West confrontations of the 19th century. The foreign policy of the Soviet Union was very similar to that of Czarist Russia... In many ways it is ridiculous in that if you look at such sites as  (if I remember) The Worst Roads in the World or The worst polluted places in the World  - Russian locations are prominent.. It would seem rational to build the infrastructure of a country first before any outside adventure - but rationality doesn't seem to be at play here    http://neoncobra.blogspot.com/2006/12/worst-highway-in-world.html ; http://www.blacksmithinstitute.org/wwpp2007/finalReport2007.pdf

Jack, Moscow and London were latecomers to the game even then.  That game has been on going since the Andronovan Charioteers got involved in an internal dispute between the Hill men of Susa and the River men of Sumer.  The discussion is 7000 years old.

I am not particularly bothered with the rights and wrongs of the thing.  It is one of those situations where the facts have no bearing on the argument at all.  In consequence I look to finding "the best possible outcome".  Unfortunately my definition of that is unlikely to be the same as Oligarch's.  Although I could be surprised and will stand to be corrected.


Just as Russia exists solely as an extension of Moscow,  (and France Paris and England London) so Georgia exists solely as an extension of Tbilisi.  Tbilisi exists as a trading point, a transit point between the riches of the East (Samarkand or the Gas Fields of Kazakhstan) and the rich markets of the West (Constantinople or Istanbul).  That has always been its source of wealth.  That has always been why it has been so prized.   Generally the citizenry have been protected by their mountains, even if the princes have fallen.  Taxes may have been paid to different overlords but the basic culture remains.

Now as to the related cultures in all of those little petri dishes / tidal pools / mountain valleys and how closely they are related - blood or adaptation - synergy or competition - that is another matter entirely.

For me Vlad is starting to look a lot like Robert Mugabe.  He wants the Georgian's "share", and the Kazakhs, Turkmen and Azerbaijani's as well.
 
Just watching on NewsNet, there isn't a story on their website yet, but it was reporting that Russian military forces have moved towards, and surrounded T'blisi.

Midget
 
Denial of Service attacks are very similar to ECM Jamming - flooding a service or server with calls until it can no longer respond (or responds very slowly).

You don't have to be in the same country as a server to attack it, and you could affect a regions ability to access and interact with certian sites, especially ones like Youtube, who have several regional static servers.

The DOS attack in Georgia  could have been done by another government, an activist group, or a bunch of empasioned teenagers with laptops - it isn't an overly  difficult thing to do.

Interesting move by the US though, following the attack (associated press shared with fair dealings etc)
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gCRZYKAcPy9kLZ4G3YvS-aMu2RrwD92HQ6GG0

While hacking a Georgian ISP is definatly more difficult than pinging a server repeatedly, it isn't unusual that a government would force a  block on access to sites (such as Youtube) if they didn't want thier people posting things (or reading about them) online. Similar to China's cyberspace control, who have blocked Google, and more than 500,000 sites with the Tibet protesters and the Olympics etc.

Pakistan, Thailand, Turkey, and many other Governments have blocked YouTube at one time or another.  In fact if I recall, recently one of them unintentionally took the whole site out for everyone worldwide. 

It's amazing the sort of impact something like this can have in our information age.



 
Reporter shot while giving report. Could be but I am skeptical.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfBpvY81Fl4&eurl=http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/
 
It seems to me that we are trying to pick the fly-shit out of the pepper here while we ignore the bigger issues.

There is plenty of blame to go ‘round. The US prodded Georgia into a rash act (or, at least, the US pumped Georgia full of false confidence), shame on them; Russia provoked Georgia into the same rash act, shame on them, too; and Saakashvili miscalculated and acted rashly, so shame on him, also. But, so what? We learn that:

• The US government is careless in strategic matters and fails to think things through;

• Russia is duplicitous and thuggish; and

• Georgia is stupidly rash.

Nothing new there.

There seems to be little we can do about US carelessness, short of filling the State Department and the Intelligence Community with much, much smarter people – something that will be very hard to do.

There also seems to be little that we can do re: the status quo in the region: the Russians have some (most?) of what they want for now and “we” have little realistic hope of restoring the situation to the status quo ante.

We might decide to avoid further provoking the Russians by e.g. making it clear that Ukraine will not be welcome in NATO. We usually call that appeasement, and it will appeal to many – especially in Europe.

We might, equally, decide to confront Moscow – “we” can make life quite miserable (economically and politically) for Russia. That course might provoke a new kind of cold war. That might be a bad thing ... perhaps ...

 
E.R. Campbell said:
It seems to me that we are trying to pick the fly-crap out of the pepper here while we ignore the bigger issues.

There is plenty of blame to go ‘round. The US prodded Georgia into a rash act (or, at least, the US pumped Georgia full of false confidence), shame on them; Russia provoked Georgia into the same rash act, shame on them, too; and Saakashvili miscalculated and acted rashly, so shame on him, also. But, so what? We learn that:

• The US government is careless in strategic matters and fails to think things through;

• Russia is duplicitous and thuggish; and

• Georgia is stupidly rash.

Nothing new there.

There seems to be little we can do about US carelessness, short of filling the State Department and the Intelligence Community with much, much smarter people – something that will be very hard to do.

There also seems to be little that we can do re: the status quo in the region: the Russians have some (most?) of what they want for now and “we” have little realistic hope of restoring the situation to the status quo ante.

We might decide to avoid further provoking the Russians by e.g. making it clear that Ukraine will not be welcome in NATO. We usually call that appeasement, and it will appeal to many – especially in Europe.

We might, equally, decide to confront Moscow – “we” can make life quite miserable (economically and politically) for Russia. That course might provoke a new kind of cold war. That might be a bad thing ... perhaps ...

To be dimplomatic on my part, I'll agree with the main idea of your message. However, calling Russia "thuggish" for going to war is a bit old fashioned given that the country we all live in is at war itself.
 
Folks I think you are wasting your time. Oligarch does not want to find fault in any of Russia's actions because he will not see that they are in the wrong. You are wasting your breath trying to convince him otherwise.
 
oligarch said:
To be dimplomatic on my part, I'll agree with the main idea of your message. However, calling Russia "thuggish" for going to war is a bit old fashioned given that the country we all live in is at war itself.

A bit different war....seeing that NATO was given a clear UN mandated mission and clearance.

But I digress...this thread is about Georgia and Russia.

Regards
 
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