Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD [MERGED]

[Phoebe]

        Is it possible to go through ROTP at R.M.C., receive a bachelor's degree and the immediately move on to graduate studies? Obviously, this would require the individual to increase their length of commitment to the forces since they are pursuing more education but, is it even possible? And if it is, how popular is this route to receive a graduate degree?

I'm looking to receive a Bachelors of Science degree in Physics at R.M.C. and then attend graduate studies at R.M.C. for their Master's of Nuclear Science or Physics program (still sitting on the fence about this decision).

Thanks in advance.

-Phoebe

 

[ModlrMike]

I would think this outcome highly unlikely. The goal of RMC is to produce young officers capable of becoming "leaders of men (and women)", not professional students. Once working in your occupation, your branch may have a post grad programme you can apply to.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

        Is it possible to go through ROTP at R.M.C., receive a bachelor's degree and the immediately move on to graduate studies? Obviously, this would require the individual to increase their length of commitment to the forces since they are pursuing more education but, is it even possible? And if it is, how popular is this route to receive a graduate degree?

I'm looking to receive a Bachelors of Science degree in Physics at R.M.C. and then attend graduate studies at R.M.C. for their Master's of Nuclear Science or Physics program (still sitting on the fence about this decision).

Thanks in advance.

-Phoebe

I've seen this exact thing happen, however, it is not the normal course of things.  Normally, you would be expected to go into your career field for a few years and contribute to the CF before coming back for a Masters.  But, I reiterate, it does seem to happen the other way, too.

 

[Melbatoast]

I've seen this exact thing happen, however, it is not the normal course of things.  Normally, you would be expected to go into your career field for a few years and contribute to the CF before coming back for a Masters.  But, I reiterate, it does seem to happen the other way, too.

I've seen it too, very recently.  I don't know the circumstances, but this individual went from UTPNCM undergrad to some other program post-grad immediately, without being employed (or presumably qualified) in occupation.  The particular post graduate program this person went into seems extremely relevant to the occupation, which is probably how it went down, plus the occupation is kind of clogged up (MARS).

Super sweet deal in my opinion, except for the front end career lag.

 

[Journeyman]

The one person I'm familiar with was ROTP MARS, who went immediately from his BA in Politics to the MA in International Relations at the Norman Patterson School (Carleton), without classification training. During his MA he transferred over to Int, did his qualification training, then served minimal obligatory time before releasing. He subsequently did a law degree and now makes a shitload of money in Virginia Beach.

Does it happen? Yes. Is it rare? Yes. Does the CF benefit?  :dunno:

 

[Rheostatic]

I read an article about a couple of guys who qualified as Rhodes scholars during their undergrad at RMC and proceded directly to masters programs.

 

[Blackadder1916]

        Is it possible to go through ROTP at R.M.C., receive a bachelor's degree and the immediately move on to graduate studies? Obviously, this would require the individual to increase their length of commitment to the forces since they are pursuing more education but, is it even possible? And if it is, how popular is this route to receive a graduate degree?

I'm looking to receive a Bachelors of Science degree in Physics at R.M.C. and then attend graduate studies at R.M.C. for their Master's of Nuclear Science or Physics program (still sitting on the fence about this decision).

I'm sure it would be a popular route to a graduate degree, but it is not a common occurrence.  Can it happen? Yes, but don't plan on it.  DAOD 5049-1 Obligatory Service contains the following

Simultaneous Periods of Obligatory Service

Prior to the completion of a period of obligatory service, members are not normally permitted to incur more obligatory service. The Director General Military Careers (DGMC) must approve any exceptions. In those cases, the new period of obligatory service will be added to the unexpired portion of the previous period of obligatory service. The two periods will be served consecutively and in the order in which they are incurred.

Members cannot serve a period of obligatory service while receiving education or training that will incur additional obligatory service. The original period of obligatory service will be extended by the period of subsidized education or training.

There are, however, exceptions to almost every rule.  During my career I knew a few officers who were able to immediately go from undergrad to graduate studies, however it seemed that they (if from RMC) usually went to a different institution - perhaps it was because they were "invited" and received (non CF) financial incentives (scholarships) to pursue that higher programme.  CFAO 9-33 (no longer available on the internet) was the regulation governing post-graduate education subsidization.  Annex B of that order deals with the scenario you describe and used to begin with; (my version is from an old OLTRS disk)

CFAO 9-33
ANNEX B --TRAINING ON SCHOLARSHIPS PROGRAMME

PURPOSE

1.  This annex prescribes the policy and procedures governing the
acceptance of post-graduate (PG) scholarships by officers of the Regular
Force following graduation from baccalaureate level university courses.

ELIGIBILITY

2.  For the purpose of this annex, eligibility extends to officers of the
Regular Force who are in their final year of baccalaureate study attending
a Canadian Military College or university under:

    a.  the Regular Officer Training Plan (ROTP) -CFAO 9-12;

    b.  the University Training Plan -Non-commissioned members (UTPM) -
          CFAO 9-13;

    c.  the University Training Plan -Officers (UTPO) -CFAO 9-40; or

    d.  special authority while on leave without pay (LWOP).

3.  Receipt of a PG scholarship by an officer of the Regular Force does
not automatically imply that the officer will be permitted by NDHQ to
proceed on such training.

4.  Eligibility to proceed on scholarship training will take into account:

    a.  the officer's academic and military records;

    b.  the military applicability of the PG course; and

    c.  the prestige associated with the scholarship.

5.  Preference will be given to those scholarships that are universally
recognized, such as the Rhodes scholarship.  As a further guide,
scholarships that will be considered by NDHQ will normally be those in the
high dollar value range that do not require the candidate to expend more
than six hours of work a week for the university concerned.  Scholarships
usually considered as teaching or research assistant-ships offered by
universities are, for purposes of the PG programme, not considered to be
prestigious and therefore are excluded.

ANNUAL QUOTA

6.  No specific quotas are established for PG scholarship training.
Attendance will be determined annually by NDHQ, based on the availability
of officers and current military requirements.

 

[SentryMAn]

Pheobe;
The other side of this is why do a Under grad and then grad at the same university in the same discipline?  You will be essentially learning the same information from the same professors with the same sight on the topics.

 

[jwtg]

As has been stated many times, there are opportunities but they are few and limited to the most competitive students.  They are also subject to budgets, and to the discretion of your career manager.

There's been a few presentations (I haven't listened closely because at this point I'm mostly interested in simply completing my current undergraduate studies at RMC) where people have mentioned something called 'PGonscol' or something like that.  I believe it stands for post-graduate studies on scholarship, and as I understand it, you secure a place in a graduate studies program, secure scholarship funding, and hope your branch says that you can go.

So, the simplest answer is yes, it is possible.  There are opportunities you can inquire about and apply for, but they are far from guaranteed.  Make sure you're satisfied with the idea of finishing your undergrad and then training/working in your trade, because that is far and away the most common route through RMC.
Good luck!

 

[Phoebe]

Thanks for the comments everyone. If I don't end up being considered a competitive student for graduate studies, then I'll likely pursue it after my commitment to the forces. Though, that is still very long away and I may enjoy my trade so much I may believe a post grad degree may be unnecessary.

Again, thanks! everyone!

-Phoebe   

 

[Journeyman]

Quite a few officers continue on with grad studies after the initial recruiting/training dust settles and they've learned the gist of their job.

If you're not posted to a major city, there are numerous distance learning options available. There's also a graduate degree option tied to the Command and Staff College programme, although it's not in Nuclear Science.


Of course, by that point you may consider yourself a military officer with an interest in nuclear physics, rather than a researcher who wears a uniform to get schooling paid for. 

 

[Phoebe]

Of course, by that point you may consider yourself a military officer with an interest in nuclear physics, rather than a researcher who wears a uniform to get schooling paid for. 

If you're trying to make the statement that I am just trying to get free schooling dear sir, you're sadly mistaken. I'm simply trying to pursue my major interests in life, both those related to the defence of this nation and to the advancement of my knowledge related to science.

Let me also add, If I'm not found worthy to attend R.M.C. I plan to reapply as an N.C.O. for Infantry.

-Phoebe 

 

[McG]

        Is it possible to go through ROTP at R.M.C., receive a bachelor's degree and the immediately move on to graduate studies?

Apparently there are a handfull every year (4 to 5 is the number that I was given from RMC last summer).  With all the students that start at RMC, that is not a significant number.  I would not recommend anyone plan to be one of those 4 to 5.

... I also question if this is really a good idea for an institution that is supposed to be launching officers into their careers.

 

[MJP]

Apparently there are a handfull every year (4 to 5 is the number that I was given from RMC last summer).  With all the students that start at RMC, that is not a significant number.  I would not recommend anyone plan to be one of those 4 to 5.

... I also question if this is really a good idea for an institution that is supposed to be launching officers into their careers.

Civi U ROTP (and UTPNCMs) are accepted as well.  I knew one that got accepted this year but turned it down for some good reasons.

 

[Trick]

Hi all,

This is probably a better question for a recruiter, but I don't have much time during the work day to sit on hold with the NB office which is busy these days and besides, I imagine I'm not the only person in this situation.

I'd like to go to RMC to study Military Science. The potential problem though is I'm 24 and already have an undergraduate degree in Science. Will this preclude me from doing ROTP at RMC as technically I already qualify for most officer trades (especially as Military Science isn't required for any trades as far as I know).

Thanks,

 

[jeffb]

Just a thought, have you considered doing a Masters in Military Studies instead of a second degree? Spending four years to essentially get the same level of academic standing MAY not help you all that much if you are doing it for career purposes.

 

[Trick]

I have, but honestly I'm not sure how well I could do in a Masters setting considering my undergraduate training is in science. While I hate the stereotype that scientists/engineers can't write, it is also true that I probably can't write a very good historical essay. Though if anyone has any input on that I'd also be interested. That said, the only career I'm interested in with regards to Military Science would be being an officer in the CF. If I was to stay in the civilian world I'd probably just stay in medical research. While I wouldn't mind doing a Masters in Military Science as a civilian and then applying as a DEO, I'm not sure I can really afford another 2ish years of being a student again- especially as there's not guarantee I'd be offered a position.

From what I've read in the past you can't do ROTP if you already have a valid degree for that trade. I just wanted to confirm that. I was also wondering what would happen if I wanted to be an Engineering Officer for example- would it be possible to do ROTP then as I don't have an engineering degree?

 

[matthew1786]

From what I've read in the past you can't do ROTP if you already have a valid degree for that trade. I just wanted to confirm that. I was also wondering what would happen if I wanted to be an Engineering Officer for example- would it be possible to do ROTP then as I don't have an engineering degree?

1. I can't confirm that but it makes a hell of a lot of sense to me.
2. I think that depends on what your major is for your Bsc. Some, albeit very few, are acceptable (but not preferable) degrees for the EngO trade.

 

[siuto]

Hi,

I have a similiar question. I have MA and BA degree in Linguistics. I passed CFAT for all officers however right now I only have one choice to choose from because of the availbility and I can't pass level 3 security at this point.
So I am consider to take a post baccalaureate program in criminology or take another degree like politic science so that I will be qualified for more other trades.
Because I already got the basic credits (ie electives) toward a degree, if I take another degree I can finish it in 2 years instead of 4 years. After finishing the first master I really dont want to go through it again and would like to learn the basics from other major. So my question will be: Do they let you to take a second degree in this way?
Thanks.

 

[gcclarke]

My understanding is that you will only be subsidized for a degree at RMC (or at a Civvie U via ROTP) if you do not hold a degree that fulfills the requirements for the trade for which you have been selected. Thus someone with a Nursing degree who wants to be an Engineering Officer would be able to get an engineering degree at RMC, someone with an engineering degree who wants to be a Nursing Officer would be able to get a nursing degree at a civvie U (since RMC doesn't do nursing degrees), but to get in under the ROTP you would need to be applying for a trade which has actual requirements that you don't meet.

There's a matrix out there that lists various types of degrees and various trades, annotating whether or not (for ROTP) they are "preferred" "fully acceptable" "acceptable" or "not subsidized". If you already have a degree, in order to be eligible for ROTP entry into a particular trade, the degree you already have would have to be, by my understanding, listed as "not subsidized". Unfortunately, the copy of the table that I've been able to find online was scanned in with absolutely terrible quality, so it's kinda hard to read. I might be able to help you figure out if your degree would be considered acceptable for the trade you want if you let me know which trade it is you're looking for, or your recruiting centre should have an actually legible copy of the table (in Annex A of CFAO 9-12 Regular Officer Training Plan)

That having been said, for siuto, I think you may be out of luck with the plan to take a 2nd criminology degree, as as far as I can tell, there are no trades which consider a criminology degree to be acceptable that don't consider a "languages" degree to be acceptable. With a linguistics degree (let alone the MA) you're alredy considered better suited academically for every trade that would accept a criminology degree other than the security grouping (I think Military Police Officer might be the only trade in this branch), which ranks criminology as a "preferred" degree and languages as a "fully acceptable" degree.

For Trick, when you said that if you stick on civvie street that you'd probably continue on in medical research. Is it safe to say that your BSc is in biology / biochemistry? If so, that degree would not be acceptable for EngO (or CELE, EME, MSEO, NCSEO, AERE), and you should remain eligible for entry under ROTP to those trades.