Hamas invaded Israel 2023

[rmc_wannabe]

So what you're saying is the Italians should take control again, and give us a few hundred years of peace?

Italians =/= Romans 2.0

Remember that those pesky Goths came in and had their way with things after Rome fell.

Additionally, "Italians" weren't a thing until Garabaldi and his lot made it a thing in 1861 with the Risorgimento. And even after that, there are parts of Italy (Sicily) that are fiercly anti-Italian, and neighbouring minorites (Tyrol, Dalmazia, Tirana) that long to become part of the whole again. You'd find a fair few sympathizers for both sides of the Holy Land question.
All this to say, sorting out grudges from antiquity based on the modern geopolitical landscape is farce. It essentially invalidates the milenia of ...well... history for convenience and nostalgia.

Israel is very much the same as Palestine was and very much like my Italian example: they all are very recently manufactured "states" made for administrative ease, in one way or another.

We can "What If?" the crap out of history, but essentially, Israel was created in 1948 out of guilt by Europeans, and without regard for long term geopolitical impacts.

But now it's been over 100 years since the Balfour declaration and 75 years of Israel being a thing. Egypt and Israel made peace 50 years ago, Jordan as well, and more of the Arab/Islamic world is coming to terms with the fact its costing them money ignoring that lucrative trading partner.

For the Palestinians, they're a pawn being used by the outliers in the region/diaspora to rock the boat. They are being sold a dream that cannot be realized because, well, history happened around them.

I think even the Romans of yore wouldn't want to touch this hornets nest with a decem pes polus.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Canadians reportedly among the hostages taken (with one death also possible) ...

Vivian Silver, a Canadian who dedicated her life to peace, is feared kidnapped by Hamas terrorists

A Canadian woman who has spent decades in the peace movement, forging close ties with moderates in Gaza, is missing and is presumed to have been abducted

thecjn.ca

Canadian citizen among Israelis kidnapped to Gaza by Hamas terrorists

Vivian Silver, a Canadian-Israeli peace activist from Winnipeg, was abducted from her home on Kibbutz Be'eri during Hamas terrorist attacks which began Saturday.

www.rebelnews.com

Trudeau calls for release of hostages, investigating reports of Canadian killed after Hamas attack on Israel

Ottawa is investigating reports of a Canadian killed in the conflict and and two being held captive

www.theglobeandmail.com

... with some of one of the alleged hostage's backstory

Living On The Border Of Gaza And Israel: How An Israeli Woman Fights For Peace

Vivian Silver is one of the women who founded Women Wage Peace, a grassroots movement working for a mutually binding non-violent agreement between Israelis and Palestinians with women at the forefront in all aspects of the negotiation.

www.forbes.com

As always, remember the usual caveats ....

 

[OldSolduer]

Some of you are far more well versed internationally than I but I have one question:

Where is China in all this? Iran supports Hamas so......does China support Iran?

Edit to add: I have found my answer - Russia.

 

[ueo]

Known Israeli Dead were over 1k yesterday.
Over 100 abducted as well.
The Israeli government isn’t being as forthcoming about the scope of the issues as perhaps they could.

Why should they? Would you divulge national ops plans?

 

[ueo]

Those responsible for those acts should face punishment.

That being said indiscriminately attacking civilians on both sides is wrong.

Israel isn’t some knight in shining armour, they have done and are actively doing evil as well.

I want the criminals on both sides to face punishment for their acts.

Winners write history...losers pay. Wait and see.

 

[ueo]

They killed, dismembered an raped a number of the women and female children.

There is no place on earth they will be able to hide.

Seems I remember a whole bunch of folks fron Bos/Cro, various african areas and several countries in the far east who have not been brought to "justice".

 

[The Bread Guy]

... Sounds like a sensible method for dealing with the Kurds.

... again ...

 

[YZT580]

I'm sorry but it feels like you are moving goal posts.

You did say 'There was no such thing as a Palestine then.' But now are adding conditions to that definition.

When others have shown that Palestine has existed in some shape or form for a very long time. It may not fit your definition or someone else's as a nation or sovereign but the name has been associated with a geographic location for a very long time.

I don't have a horse in this race. But it just goes to s

how how this area has a very convoluted and muddy history over the centuries.

perhaps no such thing as Palestinians as a nation would be more appropriate the same way that there has never been a nation titled Quebec

 

[gryphonv]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-hamas-1.6990773

Scorched earth ?

 

[YZT580]

Italians =/= Romans 2.0

Remember that those pesky Goths came in and had their way with things after Rome fell.

Additionally, "Italians" weren't a thing until Garabaldi and his lot made it a thing in 1861 with the Risorgimento. And even after that, there are parts of Italy (Sicily) that are fiercly anti-Italian, and neighbouring minorites (Tyrol, Dalmazia, Tirana) that long to become part of the whole again. You'd find a fair few sympathizers for both sides of the Holy Land question.
All this to say, sorting out grudges from antiquity based on the modern geopolitical landscape is farce. It essentially invalidates the milenia of ...well... history for convenience and nostalgia.

Israel is very much the same as Palestine was and very much like my Italian example: they all are very recently manufactured "states" made for administrative ease, in one way or another.

We can "What If?" the crap out of history, but essentially, Israel was created in 1948 out of guilt by Europeans, and without regard for long term geopolitical impacts.

But now it's been over 100 years since the Balfour declaration and 75 years of Israel being a thing. Egypt and Israel made peace 50 years ago, Jordan as well, and more of the Arab/Islamic world is coming to terms with the fact its costing them money ignoring that lucrative trading partner.

For the Palestinians, they're a pawn being used by the outliers in the region/diaspora to rock the boat. They are being sold a dream that cannot be realized because, well, history happened around them.

I think even the Romans of yore wouldn't want to touch this hornets nest with a decem pes polus.

which also summarizes the prime objections to abjectively apologizing for historical acts. As the song says, That was yesterday, and yesterday's gone

 

[KevinB]

Seems I remember a whole bunch of folks fron Bos/Cro, various african areas and several countries in the far east who have not been brought to "justice".

Well a lot more Serb’s got snatched than was ever public.
Bosnias and Croatians didn’t get the same treatment, simply because they were supported by the US.
Many Africans for their just desserts.

But America isn’t nearly into the same degree of retribution that Israel is. They will kill enemies (or deemed threats) in your living room if they feel it needs to get done.
#GeraldBull #MunichRetribution

How to thwart a gunman at 29,000 feet, by the only pilot who ever did

With world attention focused on MH370, Uri Bar-Lev recalls how he saved his El Al passengers from an attempted skyjacking, and says other pilots should have been trained to do the same -- on 9/11 and in countless other cases

www.timesofisrael.com

When you’re surrounded by counties that have wanted you erased from history / well it’s a little clarifying.

 

[Portnord]

So what you're saying is the Italians should take control again, and give us a few hundred years of peace?

Only in the most sarcastic tone of voice possible.

 

[TacticalTea]

You're way off track if you are looking for historical precedents for any candidates for a modern state in that space. The ancient, united, and independent kingdom of Israel lasted only slightly over 100 years three millennia ago. For comparison, the crusader kingdom was there for almost 200 years (edit: in two incarnations, doesn't change the point really) and relatively recently (a measly eight centuries). The small kingdoms in that area have almost always been border march vassals to larger empires.

This isn't to argue for or against the existence of any particular political entity... my point is digging into antiquity is just an emotional appeal that I've seen repeatedly used to disqualify entire populations from any right to live where they are. The people that are there now, not the long dead tribes that were first or longest or loudest or biggest, are the ones that need some kind of normal living conditions. Split the region into 20 brand new statelets named for Naruto characters and it would be a vast improvement over the current state of affairs if they provided good governance and security to both their people and their neighbours.

The point is not to figure out who has the oldest claim, a pointless endeavour, but rather, whether it is necessary for A. Israel, B. Gaza, and C. Palestine (West Bank) to exist. As such, observing that Palestine has not historically constituted a unique nation serves to demonstrate they could reasonably integrate with and live in Israel's neighbouring countries. Whereas Jewish Israelis could not.

To bring home the analysis, let's pretend for a moment that all our provinces are independent countries. If West Island Anglos regularly lobbed rockets at Saint-Lambert and decided to launch a massive terrorist attack against surrounding Quebecois communities, would it not make sense for the rest of Quebec to say "That's it, no more anglo Montreal, you people can go live in any of the other anglo provinces"? One can bemoan such collective punishment, but if the people of Gaza / West Island have shown they cannot self-police, then they have effectively committed a collective offense that warrants counteraction.

On the other hand, if Quebec / Israel ceased to exist, where would its people go?

In conclusion, we should ask ourselves "where is the greatest harm?" In displacing half a million? Or in upholding a geopolitical situation that results in persistent poverty, strife, armed conflict, hatred and vengeful massacres? Both options are bad. One, less so. Azerbaijan solved that same problem just last week in NK, with minimal civilian casualties. Recent developments in Israel's foreign relations show durable peace can be achieved between well-delineated nation-states.

 

[childs56]

Why can't they just get along. Get jobs and be decent people.

 

[TacticalTea]

Why can't they just get along. Get jobs and be decent people.

 

[KevinB]

Why can't they just get along. Get jobs and be decent people.

Because outside entities like to encourage them not too.

Most of the Arab states that support Hamas and Hezbollah due to simply because it’s the easiest way to keep extremists out of their countries. Others really just want to kill off the Jewish people (Iran, Syria) as a way to galvanize their population from their own internal issues.

 

[Quirky]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-hamas-1.6990773

Scorched earth ?

CBC refuses to acknowledge Hamas as terrorists, instead calls them fighters.

I can't wait for the day that publicly funded sh*t rag gets shut down.

 

[Portnord]

The point is not to figure out who has the oldest claim, a pointless endeavour, but rather, whether it is necessary for A. Israel, B. Gaza, and C. Palestine (West Bank) to exist. As such, observing that Palestine has not historically constituted a unique nation serves to demonstrate they could reasonably integrate with and live in Israel's neighbouring countries. Whereas Jewish Israelis could not.

To bring home the analysis, let's pretend for a moment that all our provinces are independent countries. If West Island Anglos regularly lobbed rockets at Saint-Lambert and decided to launch a massive terrorist attack against surrounding Quebecois communities, would it not make sense for the rest of Quebec to say "That's it, no more anglo Montreal, you people can go live in any of the other anglo provinces"? One can bemoan such collective punishment, but if the people of Gaza / West Island have shown they cannot self-police, then they have effectively committed a collective offense that warrants counteraction.

On the other hand, if Quebec / Israel ceased to exist, where would its people go?

In conclusion, we should ask ourselves "where is the greatest harm?" In displacing half a million? Or in upholding a geopolitical situation that results in persistent poverty, strife, armed conflict, hatred and vengeful massacres? Both options are bad. One, less so. Azerbaijan solved that same problem just last week in NK, with minimal civilian casualties. Recent developments in Israel's foreign relations show durable peace can be achieved between well-delineated nation-states.

Totally disagree. The historical precedent for something like Israel, Palestine or Gaza can be measured in short centuries. Their absence is measured in millennia, yet the people are still there. I'm not sure what that analogy is supposed to mean and it feels like you're responding to an argument you think I might make rather than one I did.

Jews and Arabs have been living in the area practically forever. Jews and Arabs, Israelis and Palestinians are manifestly free to emigrate, and I've personally met numbers of all of these living here. They can enjoy a considerably safer life in adjacent Cote-St-Luc and St-Laurent since we're in the mood to call out local neighbourhoods. A better question is do they WANT to emigrate and can they?

This is a political problem, a problem with the people in charge. It's NOT an ethnic problem. There are factions that love making it an ethnic problem because that lets them draw a line where they can say we don't need to care about the people inside that circle. Historical precedents are worthless to me because both sides cherry pick their points to delegitimize the presence of their opponents. I'll repeat my earlier point: any arrangement that provides good governance and security for their people and neighbours would be a massive improvement on the present state.

None of this matters for the time being anyways. Blood was spilled so we're stuck with another cycle of violence. But when it's over, watch for the politicians invoking "history" to screw over the survivors in some way. History actually says those peoples have all been there for a long time. The present has plenty of examples of them living side by side elsewhere too.

 

[gryphonv]

Jews and Arabs, Israelis and Palestinians are manifestly free to emigrate

Is that really true? I've also met a few on both sides and it seemed to me it's infinitely harder for a Palestinian to emigrate, because of either a lack of resources or red tape.

I suspect many in Gaza are effectively prisoners to the Israeli state.

This is no way in me condoning what Hamas has done though.

 

[Portnord]

Is that really true? I've also met a few on both sides and it seemed to me it's infinitely harder for a Palestinian to emigrate, because of either a lack of resources or red tape.

I suspect many in Gaza are effectively prisoners to the Israeli state.

This is no way in me condoning what Hamas has done though.

And you can't just emigrate to Canada from any place, there are procedures and red tape, but it is clearly possible as people have done it. We can't reasonably communicate if we have to qualify every statement for all the potential exceptions.