Has rank been watered down?

[Rearadmiral]

The whole thing about rank seems to have changed in the past 20 years.  I went through BMQ 8641 at Cornwallis and was taught that senior rank people were to be treated with utmost respect.  That served me well right up until I pulled the plug and left for civvie street and back to school.  Actually that served me well on civvie street too, knowing that people deserved my respect.  In my few years in reg force what I was taught served me well: I stood up when an officer came in the room.  I was terrified of the Base CWO.  On the rare occasions that I’d run into the Base CO I’d snap a nervous but sharp salute.  I remember the times when I had to be Duty Private I’d be worried that I’d snag the flag lines or something. 

Fast forward to now and I’ve rejoined as a reservist.  Things seem to be quite different.  And my experience says that it isn’t the fact that it is the reserves, but things have changed.

Last month I had the privilege of being given a tour of one of the frigates.  There were about 20 of us, and as a captain (not navy) my rank was the junior rank on the tour.  The group was 80% reg force and 20% reserve.  The senior officer on the tour was a BGen.  We entered one part of the ship and there was a young OS (no-hook private) sitting there with his feet up.  He didn’t move when we entered – with a BGen.  If that was me in 1987 or so, I’d have been on my feet in record time and been standing to attention.  I commented on this to another guy on the tour and his take was “at least I’d make it look like I was busy.”

Another example is how RSMs/CSMs/CWOs/MWO and even warrant officers are treated.  I treat everyone from the BMQ recruit to the CO with respect, but I always, ALWAYS extend the highest deference to the WO/MWO/CWO ranks.  I call CWOs ‘sir’ and justify it by being a sign of respect.  Only one CPO1 in Halifax insisted that I drop the sir and call him Chief. 

Here’s a third example: a close personal friend of mine is CO of a regiment with the rank of LCol.  Even if I’m just making a social call I come to attention at his door and wait to be addressed.  Friendship be damned, protocol requires certain things.

Fourth example:  in Ottawa last fall I saluted a Major who I ran across on a public street.  The look on his face was “what the crap is a captain saluting me for?” and then he hesitantly returned the salute.

Fifth example: I was in a reserve unit once last year and the CO, the RSM and I left an office and headed outside to go to another area.  We went through a gaggle of junior rank troops who didn’t even flinch.  20 years ago if I’d have heard the CO and the base CWO were coming by I’d park myself in the crapper for an hour or three.  Failing that, I’d have stood to attention with a sharp salute.  Not today.  No worries it seems.

Look, I’ll admit that I’m a bit of a nut, but I’ll go to my grave thinking (and knowing) that CWOs sit at the right hand of God, so I might as well treat them with that respect now.

Cheers

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Got to remember that its the new kinder gentler army.

 

[blacktriangle]

...and the fact that a lot of officers don't like being saluted all the time, at least in my experiences. I even got a chuckle from an officer once when I saluted him as he passed me, followed by a firm "relax". I agree its good to have a disciplined military, but don't put the blame soley on the junior ranks, we only follow orders after all  ;D

Oh and P.S- all the WO/MWO/CWO's still scare the crap out of me!

 

[Long in the tooth]

I don't think that there's much change... 30 years ago while in uniform I saluted our DCO who was in civilians.  He was positively embarrassed by it, and said I shouldn't salute him.

 

[Rearadmiral]

I might get flamed for this, but I think 'kinder and gentler' does have a place.  The physical abuse i endured in 1986 made me a stronger man (actually it made me a man) but I'm not sure that this model works now.  

Ah, crap...  In the time it took me to write the above sentence i realize that I don't believe a word of what i just wrote.  The intense physical and physchological abuse I took in BMQ made me a better person in every sense.  Contrary to what some might think, it hasn't made me violent or abusive.  Quite the contrary, it made me resepctful and kinder.  Yesterday I overheard an elderly woman worrying about slipping in a parking lot whne she stepped out of her car.  I stopped and asked  if she'd allow me to assist her.  That's the kind of respect and confidence that I learned on my 1986 BMQ.  

I don't want to change the topic, but I really believe that military service is the best way a young person can grow as a person.  I'm a living example.  

 

[xo31@711ret]

Hell Sir, I went through in 82 ( 'reired 06) when the CO was the boss but the RSM was God!  ;D Spent most of my time with the army. (first 6 as an RCR, then medic - mostly with front line army units - now doing reserves: supp / class A). My personal experience, never changed myself with front-line army units ( 1RCR, 119 AD Bty Bty; 2RCR) concerning Officers / RSM's / BSM's etc). But I have to agree with you on the civvie side. Some people are amazed when you offer help; just saying hello, or just striking up a conversation. Heck, I was even suggested to apply for a job by one of my young daughter's father to apply for a job at his small company he owned, just because I was x-military at the time (before I had the offer for reserves). Didn't have any experience in that particular line of work, but because of my military experience...but my comprehension of the second language was limited (my fault, not theirs). Makes one feel good that 24+ years of military does help.

 

[BinRat55]

RearAdmiral - I would have to agree with you - on a certain level.  This "theme" of disrespect, while prevalent throughout the CF, is not the norm everywhere.  You see, we have many senior NCO's who are still capable of applying a little discipline in order to correct minor deficiencies.  Any time I witness a disrespectful attitude outside my chain, I will correct it immediately.  If I witness a questionable action within my chain - it's a one sided conversation in my office - not loud, not rude, but highly effective.  Now, this only works if more and more senior NCO's familiarize themselves with how to PROPERLY apply disciplinary procedures and then incorporate that into their own attitudes.  There does seem to be a more...lackadaisical?? product from our everchanging recruit training facilities, but we do not have to coddle this along on QL3's and first units.  I myself have always been a firm believer that we (purple trades) should be posted to a field unit right out of 3's.  You learn a lot in the field about how you are part of a team.  This is where a little respect is earned, and a lot is devoted - IF the leadership is there.

My career at this point is ruled by one law: (And they went and changed that too....) 4.  Lead by example.

 

[BinRat55]

P.S:  In your fifth example, the RSM should have been shot!!  I don't know of ANY RSM that doesn't have Xray eyes to see through walls, trees, car doors... super hearing, powers of invisibility AND control of the weather.  If an RSM could witness a "gaggle" while in the presence of a Capt and a Commanding Officer without going into Tasmanian devil mode, then he or she had been taken over by passive aliens and need to have them removed IMMEDIATELY!!!

:warstory:

And to you RearAdmiral: 

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

I think it is a little slacker today than when I first trained (1977 in Chilliwack) but I find that people respond if you remind them. I find the new CADPAT, which the Army and AIR force now live in, is difficult to see the rank sometimes....especially from the side and the back and the blue colour of the AF rank slip on (very difficult to discern). I'm on IR in Ottawa and have not noticed anyone reluctant to salute in the streets around NDHQ and Coventry (where I work). We all come from an increasingly more informal society in which professionals are encouraging people to treat them as equals and call them by their first name. My wife is a Operating nurse and reports that all the Doctors insist on being referred to by the nurses by first name now. My wife is old school and refuses to do that while on the job...there's just something wrong with "Hey Betty chuck me that retractor will ya?"  "Sure Bill, comin at ya!"

 

[armyvern]

You see, we have many senior NCO's who are still capable of applying a little discipline in order to correct minor deficiencies. 

As I read through the posts ... this sprung immediately to my mind. If this is becoming "the norm" at some Units -- it is because there are Sergeants and Warrant Officers within that Unit who are not doing their jobs.

It is NOT an Officers task to correct dress, deportment & discipline. Nor is it the RSMs. It is the Sergeants. Sergeant is the first rank level at which a leader finds themselves diassociated socially from their subordinates. There is a reason for that -- because one is now expected to dispense discipline and enforce dress, deportment, protocol.

A Sergeant is the first rank level that has EARNED their way into their respective Mess. Snr NCOs & WOs (Chiefs & POs) remain the only personnel to do this. It is inherent upon them to enforce the standards of behaviour, discipline and deportment. They are the fundamental building blocks to its enforcement and adherance. If there is a problem on the ground level with a Jr NCM that can not be/is not corrected via the actions of the Sgt, it is inherent upon the Sgt to then move away from rank ... and into "appointment".

An MWO who is, by virtue of appointment, "the CSM" then dispenses corrective measures as he/she deems appropriate.

It should be on the very rare occasion that the CWO who is "appointed the RSM" should be identifying and correcting a disciplinary matter him/herself. Rather, the personnel whom he is correcting should have been marched to that RSMs location by someone of the lower rank. The RSM of a Unit rather should be keeping the traditions, the heritage and the history of the Unit alive, looking after his soldiers and ensuring their well-being. He should only be interrupted from doing this by events of a very serious nature -- it should be the VERY rare occasion that his time should be sullied by someone else's failure to enforce discipline and deportment.

If I were the RSM in the scenario detailed in the original walking through the gaggle, my wrath would have been dispensed to the sergeants who "lead" that gaggle, and it would not have been pretty. Same goes for Officers, if they are finding that personnel subordinate to them are not affording proper respect and protocol -- they need to start shitting on their Sergeants.

And yes, the RSM sits at the right hand of gawd. Two years ago, I stood outside of J7 awaiting the arrival of the Base RSM and the Comd to meet them and escort them to a briefing I was giving in the theatre after they had just met with the Comd LFAA. As I watched the staff cars approach towards J7 from the Officers Mess I watched with horror as a female 2Lt waited for them to stop at the crosswalk to let her cross. They stopped & she proceeds to saunter accross the road, no salute -- nada respect. I knew what my job was at that point in time and I began to run from my spot by the flags at the main entrance down to the next Schools walkway. As I was running, I could see the rear window on the staff car being rolled back up and knew I had made the proper decision. I ran up in front of the 2Lt, gave her a quick salute and said "come with me Ma'am ... the Base RSM would like to speak with you." The look of horror on her face as she realized what she had just "not" done is indescribeable.

When she and I got back to the main entrance and the staff car, the RSM was already standing outside waiting for us (note that the windows of the staff car had been opened up a couple inchs again so they could take in the festivities about to occur) and we both came to attention before him. I got it first (being that I was the lower rank -- a Sgt). "*#@$% XXXXX if you need to run faster to ensure that you don't run accross my grass, you damn well do it, but you will stay the %$#^& off my grass!! Do you understand? "Yes Sir." "Good then, that's costing you one." "Thank you Sir."

"2Lt XXXXXX ... $%(*&()*^^&%#$ (&*&%$%#)_O )(*&%$#@ with the Comd inside!!! Do you understand?" "Yes Sir." "Good that'll cost you one."
"Yes Sir." "Not so quick, that's one from me ... but you owe the Sgt one because she's doing one for you --- so that's two understood?" "Yes Sir."
"Get on your way then."

And off, she went. The driver then exited, opened the door to allow the Comd out as appropriate. I gave him his salute and we carried on into the building. Life went on. I'll presume that the 2 Lt will never make the same mistake again. I have been known to walk/run across the grass since. 

 

[Desert Fox]

I do agree with a lot of what has been said. Some points one can not refute, ie the slack and idle OS on the frigate (maybe its a navy thing? ;D).

The point raised with regards to a "kinder gentler army" I think touches part of the issue. The demographic of the people in the forces today has changed greatly. What I mean by this in particular is the level of education, and life experience prior to enrollment. In days past, the typical recruit was young navie, fairly uneducated, limited in life experience and other job skills. Today this does not hold as true.

Yes, there are still those who fit this tradtional mold (nothing  wrong with that) however at the same time you now have older recruits joining (ie into the 20's rather then teens) as a result these people have lived life in some capacity, held a job, received higher education, etc and as a result have expereinced life out side of the military culture. This does two things. First it makes them aware of how the rest of society functions, and secondly it gets them accustomed to the norms of regular society. Hence why the bash and crash culture has been scaled back. You can't merely scream and shout at an educated 20-somthing year old who can get a higher paying job with better work conditions civi side. (Crash and bash has its time and place, I'm refering to a continous fear/terror motivation technique)

"Kinder & Gentler" is lothed by some, probably those who are hell bent on "being hard".  Frankly a more accurate way of describing what the military is aiming at is am organization where fear is no longer the primary form of motivation, having been replaced by mutual respect, and a professional working enviroment. In some ways this has been taken too far, and we are in some ways to "touchy feely". Some the above examples are painly disgusting. Not trying to make excuses for that, some of those people need a good smack of Old School. ;D Troops undergoing basic training are one thing, a trained solider doing his day to day job is another.

RANT ENDS OVER

 

[armyvern]

I think it has a lot to do with the fact that we are experiencing a HUGE increase in the amount of Sergeants who lack "TI" and experience.

The CF is beginning to "grow" again after decades of neglect. The repercussions of our 90s downsizing are now being felt we attempt to regrow and rebuild at the same time that the "experience" that actually remained in the CF during the same 'skinny' time period all become pensionable and begin to retire.

There is a huge gap of leadership and experience in that midsection (the midsection being the years we did not recruit, but downsized) which is causing personnel to be promoted at the "ready" stage and way too early simply because the rank levels must be filled.

Some of those "ready"s will ante up and do the job well -- others are not.

We are now reaping that which was sown for us during the 90s.

 

[KevinB]

I was going to say we've had an sudden uinflux of SNCO's with combat experience and officers as well - who have learned that build a combat unit and fighting together in todays day and age has made them understand that some things from the military tradiations are not as important as others...

I can remember when we where not allowed to call other ranks by their first name, and then when the RSM allowed "one up one down" for first names. 

However I do agree that the preformance commented by the intial poster was quite shoddy.

 

[axeman]

As a long time NCO who has seen the large scale swing in the way the CF administers dress ,deportment, and discipline ,I admit sometimes the kinder gentler approach doesn't work.While we are able to recruit more ppl with a higher education we are also getting the "it's a job attitude".ii have also done a re-muster to the dim side as i call the navy its not all dark .It's weird with its "SENIORITY"that they sorry we have many traditions  don't salute while on-board  crossing the line ceremony . etc .Many things that made some units able to recruit and draw a large amount of driven ppl has changed. ESPRIT DE CORP has changed .Values as a whole have changed within the CF and the rest of civilization , unfortunately its being shown  by some of the markers you have indicated . Respect doesn't always mean saluting the person but it does mean saluting the rank . I know I've taken flak over my OLD SCHOOL  attitude some days but the job gets done and then ill worry about ruffled feathers later.  Another semi old timer understands that too  but some of the new guys don't , I hope by discussing the large scale swing"When i joined  human rights were coming into the CF." type stuff.iI can instill the values if you can show them occasionally it takes more the a surly SIR to respect a officer / snr NCM. you have to come to a position of attention, deport your self as you'd like to be respected IF you ever made that level of rank . The crap if got for my attitudeabout coming to the position of attention and yes PO  no PO etc comes across as b@glicker sometimes but  If I screw up it makes the dressing down much easier because then its not my attitude but poor performance that comes to scrutiny. If I was in the ship and a B Gen came into any space I know I would of been upright and tight  as opposed to boots off the deck  knees in the breeze. But i know my attitude is of a small proportion in the Navy SIGH ....    MY 2 CENTS AS I SEE IT .

 

[Gunner98]

Army Vern says, "It is NOT an Officers task to correct dress, deportment & discipline. Nor is it the RSMs."

Never pass a fault is a useful motto for all that wear the uniform, not just the RCR.  We all must pay attention to detail and know the appropriate means to have the fault addressed.  This may require immediate correction or later addressing by the individual's supervisor.

If the Capt, RSM and CO passed the gaggle, a private conversation initiated by the Capt to the RSM and/or CO should have taken place before the day was over.  With the Capt asking the RSM and/or CO how the situation should have been addressed or if it would be.

Discipline is a standard by which a unit judges itself.

 

[BinRat55]

I think it has a lot to do with the fact that we are experiencing a HUGE increase in the amount of Sergeants who lack "TI" and experience.

The CF is beginning to "grow" again after decades of neglect. The repercussions of our 90s downsizing are now being felt we attempt to regrow and rebuild at the same time that the "experience" that actually remained in the CF during the same 'skinny' time period all become pensionable and begin to retire.

There is a huge gap of leadership and experience in that midsection (the midsection being the years we did not recruit, but downsized) which is causing personnel to be promoted at the "ready" stage and way too early simply because the rank levels must be filled.

Some of those "ready"s will ante up and do the job well -- others are not.

We are now reaping that which was sown for us during the 90s.

Bang on Vern - I hope that we can all realize this someday.  Leadership through experience and by example is good advice for all.  We hope that we don't end up with poor leaders bred from the stock we are seeing today, only because WE dropped the ball.

Servitum Nulli Secundus!!

 

[retiredgrunt45]

Well I don't know about the "new army" but I can remember in the late 70''s early 80's if you did not salute and officer, you were in serious doodoo. Officers were instructed by the DCO to report any insubordination as such to the DSM and then as we all know s*** rolls down hill and since you were at the bottom, well you got really smelly, if you get my drift.

I can remember doing 20 x-tra's for not saluting a Major in germany, for the next 20 fridays I was driving drunks home from the messes. Did I learn my lesson, very much so. Another time I was taken aside by my Pl WO when I screwed up and read the riot act and given another 10 x-tra's for having a bit of mud on the heel of my combat boots on morning pde.

Wo's back then we're usually in their mid to late 40's, or even 50's. Until about 93 I had never seen a WO below the age of 40, it just wasn't the exception at least not in the RCR. As a matter of fact the first younger WO that I knew came from the Patricia's. Even Sgt's weren't usually below the age of 35. Myself for instance, I've had been a Cpl my whole career, but in the RCR back then it wasn't out of the norm to see career Cpl's.

As one poster mentioned, not coming to ramrod attention when a Bgen enters the room, well we would have been thrown in the guard shack for a month for insubordination like that. Nowadays it just seems normal...

I agree with Vern that with the damage done in the 90's, we are now trying to catch up, but what will be the consequences...

 

[Kat Stevens]

It's nothing new.  When I returned from Germany to Chilliwack in '92, I was clearing in at the BOR, in my DEU, complete with all my old 4CMBG trinkets.  I had been a Cpl for 8 years by then.  Leaving via the back doors, I met a bunch of TQ3 students.  A female Capt was approaching, and I snapped off a high five.  The TQ 0's all did the "ooooh, look, is that an F-18?" thing and ignored her.  I waited 'til she was out of earshot, then asked who the course senior was.  A smug looking little prick stepped up, and I read him line, chapter, and verse.  His response?  "Who the fuck are you?  You're just a Corporal."  I asked who their Crse NCOs were, and the 2i/c happened to be a good friend of mine.  We spoke about it later, and I basically got "What would you like me to do about it?"  I was gobsmacked, but the writing was clearly on the wall.

 

[Infanteer]

Oooo goody, let's talk about how hard core the "old army" was.  We, the soft soldiers of today's Army who never had the benefit of getting kicked in the face by an NCO, will get on with the war.... :

A Sergeant is the first rank level that has EARNED their way into their respective Mess. Snr NCOs & WOs (Chiefs & POs) remain the only personnel to do this.

I'm starting to get sick of this statement the more I hear it (Sorry Vern, it's not you, it's just this is a pet-peeve of mine).  First, I earned my way into the Junior Ranks Mess by signing on the line and becoming soldier (not many Canadians do that) and I earned my trip to the frumpy, at times lame, Officer's Mess through a couple years of hard work.  If I kicked around the ranks longer, I probably would have earned the right to go to the SNCOs Mess (Another pet peeve of mine, is not a Warrant Officer a Non-Commissioned Officer by the fact that they do not have a commission?  I suspect this is another CF Myth perpetuated).  I've seen alot of waisters ranked Sergeant and above - the type who have slipped through the system; what the hell have they earned?  If simply kicking around and collecting green welfare is what we consider "EARNING" the right to a mess, then by all means feel happy for that.  Everyone EARNS their right to sit in their mess - time served is irrelevent.

 

[BinRat55]

I asked who their Crse NCOs were, and the 2i/c happened to be a good friend of mine.  We spoke about it later, and I basically got "What would you like me to do about it?"  I was gobsmacked, but the writing was clearly on the wall.

Yeah, I got that same response in Borden a few years ago.  I was exiting the kitchen when I noticed a recruit standing in the road out front actually dressing himself.  I called out and asked him to join me back inside.  With his jacket wide open and beret nowhere to be seen, I asked him why he felt it necessary to do this outside.  I was a MCpl at the time.  He simply replied, "Why? Are you even from here?"  I was mortified.  "Who is your platoon commander and what is you name, recruit??" I got fake names.  What could I do?  I new the TrgO over at the school and was promptly told - "Don't screw with the recruits - you are not part of the training environment here in Borden."  Wow.  Now THERE'S leadership!!  I was scared @$%$less of CPL's when I was TQ3 qualified and posted to Petawawa, MCpl's were people I would speak only when spoken to or by permission of my Cpl.  

Yes, things have changed.