High Ranking Police Folk Allegedly Behaving Badly

[dapaterson]

I believe medical and legal professional misconduct can be given professional sanction post retirement as well.

 

[brihard]

I believe medical and legal professional misconduct can be given professional sanction post retirement as well.

“Professional sanction” in what sense though? Anything that matters if they aren’t returning to practice? That’s what I was referring to regarding licensure. Really the only meaningful thing that could follow termination of enforcement would be an enforceable fine.

 

[dapaterson]

Don't underestimate the importance of professional denunciation as well, for both the professional body or the general public.

 

[brihard]

Don't underestimate the importance of professional denunciation as well, for both the professional body or the general public.

Sure, but that effectively happens when a cop ends up in the newspaper and then quits to dodge a conduct. They aren’t then getting back in; they’re done professionally.

 

[dapaterson]

Sure, but that effectively happens when a cop ends up in the newspaper and then quits to dodge a conduct. They aren’t then getting back in; they’re done professionally.

 

[brihard]

Please show me a Canadian police officer who has exited the profession to dodge a misconduct allegation and then got back in.

The context of the discussion, after all, is professional consequences following them after resignation. I contend that, in effect, they do; someone who quits in the face of a conduct allegation is not going to be someone another service considers hireable. Doesn’t mean they may not succesfully find other work in another field, but their policing days are over.

I know you side with the ‘ACAB’ crowd, but let’s do our best to keep this facts-based.

 

[mariomike]

Criminal cases - rightfully - generate a lot of "clicks".

Or, if someone may, or may not, lose their job.

Municipal taxpayers may also find the civil $ suits of interest.

Something I remember from recruit training, "Never, EVER, admit the department has done anything wrong."

Unlike police, doctors, lawyers and others, complaints against ( Toronto ) emergency medical service staff are investigated internally and in secret. The service never announces the results or what is done to fix the problem.

Toronto Star

They typically settled out of court for an undisclosed amount. Seemed to feel less publicity would mean less lawsuits.
Or, at least, lesser amounts.

Stumbled across this from ten months ago. On the other side of Etobicoke Creek, in Mississauga,

Family of Mississauga, Ont., man sues police, paramedics​

Nothing new about that.

But, the $ amount caught my eye,

The family is seeking $101 million in damages.

Doesn't mean they will get it. But, just reading it gave me a shudder.

He was further deprived of necessary, life-saving medical care when a decision was made to transport him to St. Michael’s Hospital, located 34 km and approximately 33 minutes away from the scene, while Credit Valley Hospital was only 2.3 km from the scene.

Family of Mississauga, Ont., man sues police, paramedics and SIU over his death

The family of a 28-year-old man killed by police west of Toronto has filed a lawsuit over his death, alleging negligence on the part of the force, loc...

www.thestar.com

The Sammy Yatim criminal trial generated five pages of discussion.

"Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"

Sued into oblivion. Toronto taxpayers are on the hook for $8 million to the mother, and another $7 million to the father. They were separated, or divorced, at the time of death, apparently. A service delay by a Toronto paramedic crew cost City taxpayers $10 million to the "significant other"...

army.ca

There will also be an inquest. But, a decade later, it has yet to be re-scheduled after being delayed / side-tracked six-months ago.

The City of Toronto will not settle the family's lawsuit until after the inquest.

 

[lenaitch]

Back-in-the-day, when there were lots of little town police services in Ontario, it was not unheard of for a member to dodge an internal investigation by quitting a larger department and being hired by a smaller one. Standards were a lot looser and background checks were often cursory.

I did a criminal investigation on a member of a small town service back in the '90s which resulted in the member being charged. I wasn't out for blood but it was an 'honesty and integrity' issue and I was adamant with the Crown that I wanted a conviction, no discharges, so they couldn't return to the profession.

 

[Booter]

If not only to have a record of a decision that keeps them from just getting a job somewhere else in the field.

Back-in-the-day, when there were lots of little town police services in Ontario, it was not unheard of for a member to dodge an internal investigation by quitting a larger department and being hired by a smaller one. Standards were a lot looser and background checks were often cursory.

I did a criminal investigation on a member of a small town service back in the '90s which resulted in the member being charged. I wasn't out for blood but it was an 'honesty and integrity' issue and I was adamant with the Crown that I wanted a conviction, no discharges, so they couldn't return to the profession.

there are presently several people under investigation/conduct charges getting jobs in a neighbouring province ducking their misconduct. The hiring agency is aware- that’s the dire reality of recruiting presently.

The end result will be a collapse of those disciplinary processes

 

[mariomike]

In my little corner of the World, when they fired a guy, there would be a union rep there to hold his hand ( figuratively speaking, of course ).

There would be an immediate grievance.

Unless it was a "hanging offence", they would offer to transfer the "guilty bast#$d" to another job classification in another department.

Sometheing where he would out of the profession. Never again to be turned loose on the citizens of the city.
A water filtration plant, for example.

No need to punish his family. Some of the cases really were sympathetic. They had simply reached their "best before" date and broken down.
There was no "easy out" back then.

So, there was no change in seniority, sick bank, vacation, pension etc. But, there would definitely be a pay loss, as it was not WSIB.

If they refused, the union could take it to arbitration. But, that didn't usually end well for the member.

 

[OldSolduer]

Back-in-the-day, when there were lots of little town police services in Ontario, it was not unheard of for a member to dodge an internal investigation by quitting a larger department and being hired by a smaller one. Standards were a lot looser and background checks were often cursory.

I did a criminal investigation on a member of a small town service back in the '90s which resulted in the member being charged. I wasn't out for blood but it was an 'honesty and integrity' issue and I was adamant with the Crown that I wanted a conviction, no discharges, so they couldn't return to the profession.

We had a cop on the WPS who was suspended without pay. The cop in question was an old time cop who was well respected by the rank and file but not so much the WPS chief at the time.
He grieved and won as he had not been found guilty yet.

 

[lenaitch]

We had a cop on the WPS who was suspended without pay. The cop in question was an old time cop who was well respected by the rank and file but not so much the WPS chief at the time.
He grieved and won as he had not been found guilty yet.

And well he should; the rules are pretty clear.

I had a friend who came to a regional PS from a pre-amalgamation department. He was well respected but didn't get along with the new chief who had been parachuted in from Toronto. He was KOD and his family was adamant the the chief was not allowed to attend the funeral. He went to the wake at the community centre afterwards since the family couldn't control that and most members just assumed he was at the funeral.

 

[dapaterson]

Is policing a profession or a job? If it's a profession then there are requirements for regulating the profession - including condemnation of conduct while a member of the profession, even if that sanction comes after leaving the profession.

If it's merely a job, well, ...

 

[brihard]

If not only to have a record of a decision that keeps them from just getting a job somewhere else in the field.

there are presently several people under investigation/conduct charges getting jobs in a neighbouring province ducking their misconduct. The hiring agency is aware- that’s the dire reality of recruiting presently.

The end result will be a collapse of those disciplinary processes

Wow, that’s some shameful shit. They’re at the point of knowingly hiring someone who comes in with a recently dirty McNeil?

Is policing a profession or a job? If it's a profession then there are requirements for regulating the profession - including condemnation of conduct while a member of the profession, even if that sanction comes after leaving the profession.

If it's merely a job, well, ...

Call it whichever you will. I think every one of us in this thread is more than comfortable with there being stringent professional standards that are consistently upheld.

 

[dapaterson]

And people want to believe in police and policing. But then there's the Ottawa Police Service. Beat up a kid? Then make threats that are recorded and entered into the court record? A year's demotion for your second offence. Lie in court ? Fail to attend court? Be credibly accused of stealing from crime scenes? Leave with pay, unable to testify, but still appear in public in a metal band.

From the examples of OPS, it appears in the context of Ontario policing that current tools are inadequate, and do not either correct individual behaviours or provide a deterrence to others.

Ottawa police officer who threatened to feed tenant "to the fish" demoted for one year

An Ottawa police officer who threatened to kill his former tenant, sell the man’s child to pay his late rent and “spill blood” has been demoted for a year.

ottawacitizen.com

Another drug case folds amid allegations of Ottawa cop stealing cash during raid

The private-home theft allegation was revealed in a charter application filed by the accused in a bid to have his charges tossed out due to claims of police misconduct.

ottawacitizen.com

 

[mariomike]

From the examples of OPS, it appears in the context of Ontario policing that current tools are inadequate, and do not either correct individual behaviours or provide a deterrence to others.

We have one big problem in selecting police officers. We have to recruit from the human race.

 

[Booter]

Wow, that’s some shameful shit. They’re at the point of knowingly hiring someone who comes in with a recently dirty McNeil?



Call it whichever you will. I think every one of us in this thread is more than comfortable with there being stringent professional standards that are consistently upheld.

It’s terrible. But there won’t be a finding- just an allegation. I was shocked. More than one.

 

[Booter]

Call it whichever you will. I think every one of us in this thread is more than comfortable with there being stringent professional standards that are consistently upheld.

100%. And I still believe in the people we work with- they’re more like you than any of the outliers that make the news.

 

[Eaglelord17]

They should not be able to avoid consequences by resigning. To me we should make things like the police services act apply after resignation for offences committed on the job. Not only because of domestic usage but due to things like they did things that were illegal internationally on the job (see link below).

There are certain things that cops get to do as part of their job which would be illegal for your average citizen to do. The police services act regulates those activities and prescribes punishments. Taking a quick skim through Ontarios, there was even a couple specific things which could result in up to a year imprisonment. I would even recommend toughening up the sentence for some of them, held to a higher standard means more severe consequences for failing to meet it, resigning shouldn’t make a difference one way or another.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.3698744

 

[brihard]

It’s terrible. But there won’t be a finding- just an allegation. I was shocked. More than one.

The existence of an investigation alone, without the allegation being cleared, should be enough to trigger a McNeil disclosure obligation. You bet your ass defense counsel will know to watch for that.