High Ranking Police Folk Allegedly Behaving Badly

[KevinB]

I’m curious as to how any of the LEO’s are criminally responsible.

If Ketamine was administered by the Paramedics, and was administered at too high a dosage, how TF is a LEO supposed to know what the dosage is supposed to be? Furthermore why on earth would they be involved in that aspect?

It seems there is a case for negligence on the part of the Paramedics, and solely them.

As at the time the neck restraint was part of the Departments policy, and they called the Paramedics after use as per SOP.

The other issue that worries me, is the initial coroner’s report ruled out any cause from the LE using the carotid choke - it was then revised.

 

[Jarnhamar]

LE using the carotid choke -

That's such a great move.

 

[mariomike]

I’m curious as to how any of the LEO’s are criminally responsible.

One officer who arrested Elijah McClain convicted of criminally negligent homicide; second officer acquitted

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/us/elijah-mcclain-police-trial-thursday/index.html

 

[KevinB]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/us/elijah-mcclain-police-trial-thursday/index.html

Yes I read that. Nothing jumps out at me that was contrary to the department policy at the time.

 

[mariomike]

Yes I read that. Nothing jumps out at me that was contrary to the department policy at the time.

Didn't know you had already read it.

 

[KevinB]

Didn't know you had already read it.

I don’t like what happened in this case.

There doesn’t appear to have been any reason for the boy to die. Some of the methods used I don’t agree with, but at the time, the restraints and other actions appear to have been within the scope of the Department’s policy.

The initial coroners report placed the blame on the Paramedics who administered a 42% larger Ketamine dose than the victims weight would dictate.

Heck I’m somewhat familiar with Ketamine, and some other medical stuff, but if a Paramedic was administering anything to a suspect/patient, that’s got nothing to do with me acting as a LEO, and I’m for sure as shit not going to be trying to look over their shoulder to see what they are doing is correct - mainly as I’m not current, and wouldn’t have been knowledgeable as to their policies and procedures for administering medications and narcotics.

The biggest thing that jumped out at me what when the corners report was revised to add blame to the LE restraint. Right, wrong or indifferent, that restraint was policy of the department at the time, and had been administering in accordance with the guidelines, as well as following the SOP for immediate calling of paramedics to the scene after.

To me is appears that pressure was exerted to alter the Coroners Report to be able to place blame on LE as well, but regardless, I don’t see how if it was accepted that the restraint was used in accordance to policy how any criminal culpability can be found.

 

[mariomike]

I don’t like what happened in this case.

There doesn’t appear to have been any reason for the boy to die. Some of the methods used I don’t agree with, but at the time, the restraints and other actions appear to have been within the scope of the Department’s policy.

The initial coroners report placed the blame on the Paramedics who administered a 42% larger Ketamine dose than the victims weight would dictate.

Heck I’m somewhat familiar with Ketamine, and some other medical stuff, but if a Paramedic was administering anything to a suspect/patient, that’s got nothing to do with me acting as a LEO, and I’m for sure as shit not going to be trying to look over their shoulder to see what they are doing is correct - mainly as I’m not current, and wouldn’t have been knowledgeable as to their policies and procedures for administering medications and narcotics.

The biggest thing that jumped out at me what when the corners report was revised to add blame to the LE restraint. Right, wrong or indifferent, that restraint was policy of the department at the time, and had been administering in accordance with the guidelines, as well as following the SOP for immediate calling of paramedics to the scene after.

To me is appears that pressure was exerted to alter the Coroners Report to be able to place blame on LE as well, but regardless, I don’t see how if it was accepted that the restraint was used in accordance to policy how any criminal culpability can be found.

As a PCP, I was not trained in Ketamine.

They didn't tell us about Restraint Asphxia until the 1990's.

RESTRAINT ASPHYXIA – SILENT KILLER
Part ONE of THREE​

Restraint Asphyxia Silent Killer, Part ONE

RESTRAINT ASPHYXIA – SILENT KILLER
Part TWO of THREE​

Restraint Asphyxia Silent Killer, Part TWO

RESTRAINT ASPHYXIA – SILENT KILLER
Part THREE of THREE Parts​

Restraint Asphyxia Silent Killer, Part Three

Saw this about "Excited Delirium".

Paramedics told investigators that Elijah McClain had 'excited delirium,' a disputed condition​

Paramedics told investigators that Elijah McClain had 'excited delirium,' a disputed condition

Two paramedics on trial over the 2019 death of Elijah McClain told investigators in videotaped interviews previously unseen by the public that the 23-year-old Black man had "excited delirium," a disputed condition that some say is unscientific and rooted in racism.

www.ctvnews.ca

Two paramedics on trial over the 2019 death of Elijah McClain told investigators in videotaped interviews previously unseen by the public that the 23-year-old Black man had "excited delirium," a disputed condition that some say is unscientific and rooted in racism.

 

[Booter]

Is there any evidence that the police officers have any advance medical training that includes administration of medication? There’s absolutely nothing within the normal scope of our profession that would in any way qualify us to assess if administering a sedative is medically appropriate. We might be able to form a reasonable belief that it’s unreasonable, but ruling it in would be a vastly different matter.

It’s not impossible that they both happen to have prior training or experience in another profession or through some police medic specialization that puts something like that in scope. But I’d be REALLY surprised were that the case.

I can’t speak to the paramedic side at all.

“However, prosecutors argued that the officers’ restraint of McClain contributed. Senior Assistant Attorney General Jason Slothouber told jurors that Roedema and Rosenblatt also encouraged the paramedics to give McClain ketamine by describing him as having symptoms of excited delirium that they had learned about in training. But he said the officers did not tell them anything about McClain’s complaints that he could not breathe, something prosecutors said happened six times.”

That’s from the prosecution of the first fella.

 

[brihard]

“However, prosecutors argued that the officers’ restraint of McClain contributed. Senior Assistant Attorney General Jason Slothouber told jurors that Roedema and Rosenblatt also encouraged the paramedics to give McClain ketamine by describing him as having symptoms of excited delirium that they had learned about in training. But he said the officers did not tell them anything about McClain’s complaints that he could not breathe, something prosecutors said happened six times.”

That’s from the prosecution of the first fella.

That’s less than ideal.

 

[KevinB]

“However, prosecutors argued that the officers’ restraint of McClain contributed. Senior Assistant Attorney General Jason Slothouber told jurors that Roedema and Rosenblatt also encouraged the paramedics to give McClain ketamine by describing him as having symptoms of excited delirium that they had learned about in training. But he said the officers did not tell them anything about McClain’s complaints that he could not breathe, something prosecutors said happened six times.”

That’s from the prosecution of the first fella.

Down here a lot of training was pushing Ketamine for Emotionally Disturbed suspects, especially in the 2017-2020 periods, I saw seminars on it at NTOA and IACP, it was all paramedic administered and under their procedures for usage.

 

[Booter]

Down here a lot of training was pushing Ketamine for Emotionally Disturbed suspects, especially in the 2017-2020 periods, I saw seminars on it at NTOA and IACP, it was all paramedic administered and under their procedures for usage.

It does seem to be the du jour darling to solving “delirium” calls. “Use positional restraint!”…kills. “Use OC spray”…kills. “Use CEW!”…kills. “Use ketamine?”…

 

[mariomike]

“Use positional restraint!”…kills.

Before Ketamine,

The "999 sandwich". Sandwiched between two Long Back Boards ( LBB ).

Deadly restraint: Internal records reveal what officers, paramedics did and why​

Deadly restraint: Internal records reveal what officers, paramedics did and why

Action News has unearthed new records from the investigation into how a Fresno man died while restrained by law enforcement.

abc30.com

Attorneys for the Perez family say he died because officers kept him in the prone position for more than 16 minutes and for more than one minute, an officer sat on Perez's back on top of the backboard for a gurney.

That officer told investigators he was following instructions from a paramedic.

"The paramedic said 'no, we're going to put it on top of him so you guys can sit on him,'" the officer said as he described the incident to internal affairs investigators. "OK. Maybe they've done something I haven't done. That's a different thing from what we would do."

"He was pretty much fighting the whole time," the paramedic said to internal affairs investigators. "I mean, it took a little bit of force to try to keep him down on the board on top of him. And continued to keep yelling. And then at some point, he became unresponsive."

You could use supine restraint on a LBB . But, that is frowned upon now as breathing supine on a LBB can be difficult. So, they recommend semi-sitting on the stretcher, with straps, one hand secured to the side frame, and the other over the head frame.

 

[CBH99]

Is there any evidence that the police officers have any advance medical training that includes administration of medication? There’s absolutely nothing within the normal scope of our profession that would in any way qualify us to assess if administering a sedative is medically appropriate. We might be able to form a reasonable belief that it’s unreasonable, but ruling it in would be a vastly different matter.

It’s not impossible that they both happen to have prior training or experience in another profession or through some police medic specialization that puts something like that in scope. But I’d be REALLY surprised were that the case.

I can’t speak to the paramedic side at all.

I don't think I was clear in my post...

I was trying to say that I find it unlikely that 2 professional police officers, and 2 professional paramedics, were all involved with an altercation that went as far as requiring a subject be sedated, for no reason at all.

Everybody involved all professionals (within their own field) and as such, I doubt this situation 'just happened out of the blue'.


Maybe I am wrong...

Maybe it is as cut and dry as the media reports, and this kid was literally just walking to/from the store minding his own business, and obviously 'something' happened.

But the police don't usually stop people just walking down the sidewalk minding their own business.

And paramedics don't usually inject a subject/patient with something like ketamine unless there appears to be a very real justification for it...



I'm not saying what happened is right, or fair, or even justified. I'm also not saying it wasn't.

I'm just saying I feel like there is a missing piece to this story that would help connect the dots of "kid goes for walk to store" and "kid is injected with ketamine during altercation with police and EMS"

 

[mariomike]

I'm just saying I feel like there is a missing piece to this story that would help connect the dots of "kid goes for walk to store" and "kid is injected with ketamine during altercation with police and EMS"

This paramedic discusses a possible "trigger-happy mentality around the drug."

Minnesota Paramedic Speaks Out Against Police Use of Ketamine Injections

Joseph Baker has filed a whistleblower lawsuit alleging that police pressured him to use ketamine, a fast-acting sedative, during an arrest.

theintercept.com

 

[mariomike]

Update.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1738363638467997916

That was the last of the three criminal trials.

Two paramedics convicted.

In addition to the one police officer already convicted of criminally negligent homicide and assault.

And the three officers who were fired. And the one who resigned.

 

[KevinB]

Update.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1738363638467997916

That was the last of the three criminal trials.

Two paramedics convicted.

In addition to the one police officer already convicted of criminally negligent homicide and assault.

And the three officers who were fired. And the one who resigned.

One of the officers still has his job.

This paramedic discusses a possible "trigger-happy mentality around the drug."

Minnesota Paramedic Speaks Out Against Police Use of Ketamine Injections

Joseph Baker has filed a whistleblower lawsuit alleging that police pressured him to use ketamine, a fast-acting sedative, during an arrest.

theintercept.com

Keep in mind that in the 2018-2020 time frame that many medical professionals where recommending that option for LE interactions with ED ‘customers’.

Having ended up in physical altercations with emotional disturbed individuals, many times restraining them results in injuries to both officers and the the suspect (and sometimes bystanders as well).

Ketamine was seen as ‘the off switch’ to be able to control the subjects without causing them serious physical injury. Especially in cases in cooler weather where the clothes worn can interfere with the taser, and OC doesn’t always work on EDP’s.

So rather than clobber them with a baton repeatedly, one could attempt physical restraint while a paramedic jabbed them.

One the face of it, it is often the safest approach for all.

 

[mariomike]

One of the officers still has his job.

As I understand it, of the three police officers criminally charged, one was convicted. Presumably the other two could return to duty.

Not sure if any of the four fired for posing for souvenir snapshots got their jobs back.

Colorado police officers fired for recreating chokehold in photos at Elijah McClain memorial​

The officers smiled and posed for chokehold photos where McClain was killed.

Four officers were involved in the incident. Officer Jaron Jones resigned earlier this week.

Colorado police officers fired for recreating chokehold in photos at Elijah McClain memorial

The officers smiled and posed for chokehold photos where McClain was killed.

abcnews.go.com

We didn't have Ketamine, but if 3 police and 2 paramedics ( one for each limb, and one for the head ) can't restrain a guy his size to a Long Back Board or stretcher without Ketamine, I guess times really have changed.

https://twitter.com/x/status/963136652368666624

 

[daftandbarmy]

1500+ files... there must be enough material in there for a few Netflix series

OPCC complaint files include officer who stalked ex-partner, another who took gun on holiday​

The cases represent just two of the more than 1,500 files the Office of the Police Complaint Commissioner looked into

A Saanich police officer was fired for stalking a former partner in 2021 and another was suspended after taking a department-issued gun on vacation in 2022.

The cases represent two of the more than 1,500 files the Office of the Police Complaint Commissioner looked into, according to its 2022-2023 annual report.

The Saanich officer whose unwanted contact with a former partner led to his dismissal also used police databases to make 92 unauthorized queries over four years on the former partner and members of her family, according to the OPCC, which called his conduct “egregiously serious.”
The officer admitted to making unauthorized searches on his former partner, but denied looking up family members, according to an OPCC report.

An investigation showed he queried the partner’s name more than once, along with that of her teenage son, and 13 other people related to the former partner.

The partner had made it clear after their four-year relationship that she wanted no further contact with the officer, but in the year following the breakup, she and her family repeatedly saw him driving near her home.

The discipline authority determined firing the officer was the appropriate course of action, because “anything other than dismissal would bring the administration of police discipline into disrepute and [would be] contrary to the public interest.”

The officer retired before he was fired, but his service record reflects the dismissal.

Another Saanich officer was investigated after taking a gun issued by the department on vacation. That officer was suspended for three days without pay.

OPCC complaint files include officer who stalked ex-partner, another who took gun on holiday

The cases represent just two of the more than 1,500 files the Office of the Police Complaint Commissioner looked into

www.timescolonist.com

 

[Booter]

The discipline authority determined firing the officer was the appropriate course of action, because “anything other than dismissal would bring the administration of police discipline into disrepute and [would be] contrary to the public interest.”

Should be said more often.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Another Saanich officer was investigated after taking a gun issued by the department on vacation. That officer was suspended for three days without pay

Punishing someone for trying to keep Canadians safe even while on vacation, how terrible.