Hospital ship for Canada

[Spencer100]

In hindsight, getting a licence to cut hair would likely have been easier.

For candidates in Ontario, those are the rules. I didn't make them.

https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/905c-Recruitment-Guide-2023.pdf

Just played the game.

And they wonder why the RCMP, the CAF etc. can't fill jobs. If I was the CAF......guy comes in door....well I guess before that tell him/her online to come to the office on this date with bag. Load bus drive to CFB big base. Do the rest there. Paperwork, medical, security check etc. start a very basic training. March, salute, make bed, history class. tests for abilities and aptitudes. Wash out the ones that would work out with a no harm no fault. Pay them for the time and thank you. The rest start the training. The amount of the paperwork and checks that are required and waiting are just way too much.

Later if the security checks come back bad you do something then. The medical I would think would be quick as in a day or so. If the occupation class is not for sometime keep training as a basic soldier, airman, seaman etc. until open than move them along to that. It would hurt the forces if more trained in even more basic military training. shooting, marching, drilling etc.

 

[Navy_Pete]

And they wonder why the RCMP, the CAF etc. can't fill jobs. If I was the CAF......guy comes in door....well I guess before that tell him/her online to come to the office on this date with bag. Load bus drive to CFB big base. Do the rest there. Paperwork, medical, security check etc. start a very basic training. March, salute, make bed, history class. tests for abilities and aptitudes. Wash out the ones that would work out with a no harm no fault. Pay them for the time and thank you. The rest start the training. The amount of the paperwork and checks that are required and waiting are just way too much.

Later if the security checks come back bad you do something then. The medical I would think would be quick as in a day or so. If the occupation class is not for sometime keep training as a basic soldier, airman, seaman etc. until open than move them along to that. It would hurt the forces if more trained in even more basic military training. shooting, marching, drilling etc.

Jesus, we're already getting a lot of unsuitable candidates despite the recruiting screening. If we didn't even do basic medical and some kind of police screenings St Jean would be even more of a hellscape with a PAT battalion for people that take forever to kick out.

Garbage in and all that, but we don't have time/resources at CFLRS to try and do basic screening on top of everything else.

 

[Spencer100]

Jesus, we're already getting a lot of unsuitable candidates despite the recruiting screening. If we didn't even do basic medical and some kind of police screenings St Jean would be even more of a hellscape with a PAT battalion for people that take forever to kick out.

Garbage in and all that, but we don't have time/resources at CFLRS to try and do basic screening on top of everything else.

My thought was that was done before they get to the real BMQ. At a screening camp. Everything at one location get them get them. Move the people in Ottawa doing the work now to the coal face as it were. They can do it right at the CFB big base. The medical done fast, the police screening right there. If its not going to work get them out fast with pay and ticket home and thank you note. Then after that move to St Jean etc.

Just don't have people sit at home for year waiting on Ottawa, the RCMP etc. etc. They lose interest. The future generations are short attention spans.

 

[Navy_Pete]

My thought was that was done before they get to the real BMQ. At a screening camp. Everything at one location get them get them. Move the people in Ottawa doing the work now to the coal face as it were. They can do it right at the CFB big base. The medical done fast, the police screening right there. If its not going to work get them out fast with pay and ticket home and thank you note. Then after that move to St Jean etc.

Just don't have people sit at home for year waiting on Ottawa, the RCMP etc. etc. They lose interest. The future generations are short attention spans.

Move what people to the coal face? Security is processed through RCMP, medical is done by a local PA, and any more complicated issues forwarded to a medical officer for review. Unless it's changed, you don't actually submit your security clearance anyway until you are in St. Jean, which is where you get fingerprinted etc if you have a level 2 or higher.

Relocating everyone to a single location won't make them review the files faster if it's a throughput limit; if you want more files processed you need to have more people reviewing files.

Having people that forgot to bring their rifle for their weapons handling re-re-test, and similar levels of staggering incompetence is something that still bugs me 18 years later and undermines any real sense of personal accomplishment. Dropping that standard to get 'more people in the door' is a great way to have our current bottom 10% become the average soldier. If you think things are bad now, imagine what it would be like if the people weren't actively holding things together despite the best efforts of the institution.

I don't disagree that the screening/recruiting process takes too much time, but I don't think just not doing it is the answer. It's not rocket surgery, sometimes you just need a lot more people doing something to get it done faster (and also there long enough so that they don't learn the job just in time to get posted).

Depending on who gives the numbers, the CAF is short somewhere between 10k - 20k + people, but still operating like we're sitting at 100% with all new equipment. That's been status quo for a decade, and people are done. The institutional collapse is entirely reasonable and predictable in that context. We have way less, so we should start doing way less, not even more.

 

[lenaitch]

the police screening right there

My understanding is this component alone takes a minimum of two months.

 

[Spencer100]

My understanding is this component alone takes a minimum of two months.

That's my point. Put the team right that does the checking. Plus 2 months is total BS in today's world. Get them out if their Ottawa towers.

 

[dapaterson]

That's my point. Put the team right that does the checking. Plus 2 months is total BS in today's world. Get them out if their Ottawa towers.

Glad that you're an expert in verifying identity of personnel from around the world and consulting with multiple agencies on that topic.

 

[lenaitch]

That's my point. Put the team right that does the checking. Plus 2 months is total BS in today's world. Get them out if their Ottawa towers.

It doesn't matter where they are, it's a matter of workload. I don't see how having the staff physically at the 'screening camp' would speed anything up. Perhaps the CAF could move some spare money over to the RCMP/CSIS to help their staffing.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

You can run short two month courses for those who sign up as they wait for things to churn through the system, we used to call a similar concept SYEP. Lot's a good soldiers came out of that program, lots of flakes came and went. Performance in the course counts as well to acceptance and people get to try out what it's like. Run the courses out of armouries scattered across the country. Students mostly do it 8-4 with some weekend exercises. Focus on the basics, like hygiene, drill, military structure, military life, basic survival skills, limited weapons training, mostly drill, cleaning, etc.

 

[mariomike]

You can run short two month courses for those who sign up as they wait for things to churn through the system, we used to call a similar concept SYEP. Lot's a good soldiers came out of that program, lots of flakes came and went. Performance in the course counts as well to acceptance and people get to try out what it's like. Run the courses out of armouries scattered across the country. Students mostly do it 8-4 with some weekend exercises. Focus on the basics, like hygiene, drill, military structure, military life, basic survival skills, limited weapons training, mostly drill, cleaning, etc.

I joined via SSEP.

At 16, I think a young person is more "moldable" to unit culture, and the Background Check is ( hopefully ) not very complicated.

 

[Navy_Pete]

You can run short two month courses for those who sign up as they wait for things to churn through the system, we used to call a similar concept SYEP. Lot's a good soldiers came out of that program, lots of flakes came and went. Performance in the course counts as well to acceptance and people get to try out what it's like. Run the courses out of armouries scattered across the country. Students mostly do it 8-4 with some weekend exercises. Focus on the basics, like hygiene, drill, military structure, military life, basic survival skills, limited weapons training, mostly drill, cleaning, etc.

There are a few versions of that, which I think is great, but it's in pretty small numbers, and requires some dedicated resources (may reservists for the most part for something like RAVEN below).

The Raven Indigenous Youth Employment Program - Canada.ca

It's all doable; just a question of what won't we do instead.

Want a hospital ship? Cool. We'll get rid of something big for jetty space, get rid of some other ships for sailors, and maybe close down some health groups for the staff.

Want a landing craft? Cool, we'll just cancel JSS, tie up some ships when that comes along for the sailors and get that instead.

We're at the 'add one, cut 1 or more' capability end because we don't have people.

The RCN doesn't want to cut anything, so expect the status quo to conitnue to deathspiral and new stuff to continue to be delayed.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Which is why for the RCN, we need to start look hard at a better RFA model. I previously suggested that the GOC tells TC to buy some more Bell 429's, paint them Gray and lease the helicopters and crews to the RCN to use on AOP's domestic patrols. I already mentioned the hospital ship is a pipe dream and if the GOC wanted to go down that route, use a civy structure and overseas medical staff, since they be operating overseas anyways. For the LST, again the RFA crewing model as the basis and ship is mainly used domestically and supporting ops in the America's.

If you really want more bayonets for the army, then we can adopt the British Gurkha program and raise a Battalion of our own.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Lol, if we did that we'd have to meet commercial standards! Can't 'risk assess' away a problem if it's civilian crew!

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Lol, if we did that we'd have to meet commercial standards! Can't 'risk assess' away a problem if it's civilian crew!

Buy a small existing cruiseship, convert it and you mostly there, run it separately from the DND.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Buy a small existing cruiseship, convert it and you mostly there, run it separately from the DND.

Asterix shows it's doable, but expensive. But the RCAF doesn't trust the navy on the air worthiness side for good reason, so that was only a semi-tongue in cheek comment.

I love people trying to risk assess away higher level orders they aren't following, or things not in their swimlane to waive. When random people without expertise dunning-kruger a risk assessment and deliberately don't swing it by the SMEs/LCMMs, leads to interesting results and bigger messes to clean up then if they had just asked us in the first place.

Derpy Aye Derpy.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Which is why I would for this capacity, pretty much lease ship and crew. let them worry about it. for the LST, I stick to domestic ship build and crew. It would be neat to see a study comparing the RFA and Federal Fleet Services. Take the best concepts and practices from both and start the RCFA. For civilian pattern ships it's actually not a bad idea to buy new and sell young. There is a reason why the Japanese merchant fleet looks and works so well, because they don't waste a lot of money on long term upkeep and refits. They sell the vessel while it's still has a lot of value in it.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Thanks for all of that. Great information.

Even in terms of your Alberta domestic emergency, how would that apply to military medical personnel? I'm wondering if they are considered 'regulated' in the same sense; i.e. by a 'college of x'? Probably not for Reserve personnel since I assume they are practicing professionals in their day job. It might be answered by Marionmike's quote of Staff Weinie but I don't understand the context of the quote.

In terms of deployment in the example scenario to Alberta, if military personnel fit the mould, would the CAF have to send a list and CV for each individual?

There has to be a way around this. When I worked on FNTs in n/w Ontario, the personnel at the nursing stations and federal (Department of Indian and Northern Affairs back in the day) were obviously federal employees working within federal jurisdiction but there was a steady stream of doctors in all sorts of specialties from southern Ontario - mostly U of T and McMaster - to perform tours who would obviously be provincially regulated.

In an emergency, one would hope that reasonable people would invoke the 'forgiveness vs. permission' principle; doing the right thing vs doings things right, but governments generally don't operate like that. Somebody in Ottawa, at some time, must have sprung up in bed, sweating, saying 'this is a problem'.

Any health profession that requires a license to practice on civvy street also requires the exact same license to do the same job in the military. One of the CAF occupational requirements is to obtain and maintain that license from the appropriate regulatory body of a Canadian province or territory. It matters not from which province one has the license as long as one is only practicing in a military setting, i.e. seeing military patients in a military facility.

Since you used the term "military medical personnel", I assume that you are lumping Med Techs in that group. They are not a regulated profession despite (sometimes) performing tasks (in a military setting) that may be performed by a couple of civilian occupations, specifically EMTs/Paramedics and LPNs. The inclusion of PCP training in Med Tech DP training was as much about demonstrating an acceptable standard of practice as well as contracting out an aspect of training that was difficult to provide in-house. One of the standard requirements for EMT/PCP/Paramedic and LPN licensing (and maintaining that license) is having a certain amount of practical experience with actual patients. The CAF has never operated "ambulance services" in the same manner as civilian organizations so the call volume has never been enough to meet licensing requirements. And since the closure of NDMC and CFHs, the opportunities for practical bedside nursing experience have greatly diminished; back when the earth was cooling (maybe not that far back - such phase 2s were instituted after I had done my Med A courses) all Med A TQ 3, 5A and 6A courses had hospital based phase 2 that were heavily focused (though not exclusively) on in-patient care.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The CCG had similar issue with IV certification for our Rescue Specialist, the abilty to maintain that certification was non-existent, so they gave us MAST pants to stabilise patients instead. Much to the disdain of receiving ER doctors, who had to dig into their notes on how to safely remove MAST pants.

 

[Furniture]

Asterix shows it's doable, but expensive. But the RCAF doesn't trust the navy on the air worthiness side for good reason, so that was only a semi-tongue in cheek comment.

I love people trying to risk assess away higher level orders they aren't following, or things not in their swimlane to waive. When random people without expertise dunning-kruger a risk assessment and deliberately don't swing it by the SMEs/LCMMs, leads to interesting results and bigger messes to clean up then if they had just asked us in the first place.

Derpy Aye Derpy.

Like the AOPS with Met systems that don't meet the basic requirements for marine weather observations, and are completely useless for aviation weather observations...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Like the AOPS with Met systems that don't meet the basic requirements for marine weather observations, and are completely useless for aviation weather observations...

I suspect they have similar Met abilities to the CCG, who also operates helicopters off of ships. I realize the CCG weather limits are different than that of a Halifax, but an AOP is closer to a 1100 class light icebreaker than a Halifax.