"I Had Soldiers Break into Tears" says ombudsman
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Ref less verbal bullying - I get accused of that all the time - but I hope you all get my drift.
Here is what the game is all about
Gen Arthur Currie spoke in Toronto on Aug 29, 1919
see all here http://www.empireclubfoundation.com/details.asp?SpeechID=417&FT=yes
In peacetime or the twilight of operations less than war - the underfunded nature of the military will not get better until it gets noticed by the politicians. An example - the Navy's Sub program fairly or unfairly got noticed recently with the accident (I presume it was an accident) on the HMCS Chicoutimi. Ten years back the politicians saw what they could not put up with and took out the Airborne Regiment.
While things are held together by gun tape and the forces in being are where they are at - I can't see the leadership falling on its sword and getting more money for more troops. An example - 5000 new troops may suggest that we have depth for another 25% of that doing on a deployment - spread between Army Navy Airforce.
I will keep banging this drum until I am a civvy - Pay Reserves like the Brits and Americans do and tap them for deployments - this could EASILY generate 1500 troops deployable on a recurring basis. Fill the NCO billets with regulars and let them slip back home when the reserves are fully up to speed. The records of the CEF above and those who were deployed at the end of WW2 - Korea and deployed to the front lines of NATO as late as the late 1980s suggest that the soldiers can be trained quickly ...... see the Pro's with a job and the con's as it would kick out a lot of 20 year soldiers ---- http://army.ca/forums/threads/21429.0.html
Gentlemen - you have your challenge - debunk - once and for all the idea of the Reserve ready Force of 1500 - or get behind it.
[Moderator note: Edited for clarity - quotation highlighted]
Here is what the game is all about
Gen Arthur Currie spoke in Toronto on Aug 29, 1919
see all here http://www.empireclubfoundation.com/details.asp?SpeechID=417&FT=yes
In peacetime or the twilight of operations less than war - the underfunded nature of the military will not get better until it gets noticed by the politicians. An example - the Navy's Sub program fairly or unfairly got noticed recently with the accident (I presume it was an accident) on the HMCS Chicoutimi. Ten years back the politicians saw what they could not put up with and took out the Airborne Regiment.
While things are held together by gun tape and the forces in being are where they are at - I can't see the leadership falling on its sword and getting more money for more troops. An example - 5000 new troops may suggest that we have depth for another 25% of that doing on a deployment - spread between Army Navy Airforce.
I will keep banging this drum until I am a civvy - Pay Reserves like the Brits and Americans do and tap them for deployments - this could EASILY generate 1500 troops deployable on a recurring basis. Fill the NCO billets with regulars and let them slip back home when the reserves are fully up to speed. The records of the CEF above and those who were deployed at the end of WW2 - Korea and deployed to the front lines of NATO as late as the late 1980s suggest that the soldiers can be trained quickly ...... see the Pro's with a job and the con's as it would kick out a lot of 20 year soldiers ---- http://army.ca/forums/threads/21429.0.html
Gentlemen - you have your challenge - debunk - once and for all the idea of the Reserve ready Force of 1500 - or get behind it.
[Moderator note: Edited for clarity - quotation highlighted]
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Foremostly I fully agree with MarkC
I must admit that my time in Afghan with RotoII I had MORE amentities than we did when I was in Cyprus on the booze cruise as it where. I agree that while we should make it comfortable for ourself it should not and cannot be at the expence of operational capability - which very simply it has been done. Looking at reg force deployments - some trades - Armoured and Engineers carry a larger/heavier deployment schedule than the 031 trades - this in wrong but seems to be how we deploy (with the exception of Op Apollo) we simply try to minimise the bayonets on the ground. I know that American studies of PTSD and related issues have found that troops without a clear mission and support at home are much more susceptible. We seem to ignore this and focus on the warm fuzzy idea of "Peace Support Operations". I really wonder that if Canada faced a National Crisis if we coudl muster the intestinal fortitude to deploy soliders for longer periods. As a Nation and as the CF we seem (institutionally) to be intent on doing nothing more than showing the flag. As INFANTEER said previously (in an older thread) we seem contnet to sit by and be Harmid Karzai "the Mayor or Kabul" (as he very precisely called it) Police force. What we as Canadians shoudl be doing is high skilled operations and leave the policing to the Euro rental armies.
The only times I wanted to cry in Afghan was when I could not put a 40mm round into the Mess where a live band was playing to the enjoyment of the non 0X1 trades. Nothign like rock music blaring over Kabul for the Hearts and Minds eh? :
In my mind we need to bring a fourth brigade up to strength and start doing Brigade deployments on a logical rotation - Plug and Play does not work (and I noticed the Ombuddi coudl nto even get the concept right to quote...)
I must admit that my time in Afghan with RotoII I had MORE amentities than we did when I was in Cyprus on the booze cruise as it where. I agree that while we should make it comfortable for ourself it should not and cannot be at the expence of operational capability - which very simply it has been done. Looking at reg force deployments - some trades - Armoured and Engineers carry a larger/heavier deployment schedule than the 031 trades - this in wrong but seems to be how we deploy (with the exception of Op Apollo) we simply try to minimise the bayonets on the ground. I know that American studies of PTSD and related issues have found that troops without a clear mission and support at home are much more susceptible. We seem to ignore this and focus on the warm fuzzy idea of "Peace Support Operations". I really wonder that if Canada faced a National Crisis if we coudl muster the intestinal fortitude to deploy soliders for longer periods. As a Nation and as the CF we seem (institutionally) to be intent on doing nothing more than showing the flag. As INFANTEER said previously (in an older thread) we seem contnet to sit by and be Harmid Karzai "the Mayor or Kabul" (as he very precisely called it) Police force. What we as Canadians shoudl be doing is high skilled operations and leave the policing to the Euro rental armies.
The only times I wanted to cry in Afghan was when I could not put a 40mm round into the Mess where a live band was playing to the enjoyment of the non 0X1 trades. Nothign like rock music blaring over Kabul for the Hearts and Minds eh? :
In my mind we need to bring a fourth brigade up to strength and start doing Brigade deployments on a logical rotation - Plug and Play does not work (and I noticed the Ombuddi coudl nto even get the concept right to quote...)
ArmyRick
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pbi, once again well said..
MarkC, right on the money..
Matt had also said it as well.
I will stand by an earlier statement about Bosnia (which upset some people who had the one token tour there) Canada should be a higher intensity peace FORCED implementation and replaced when stabilization starts to appear by "rental euro" armies (LOL thinking hungarians). We could do full on combat operations IF (big IF) we play with big brother America or older cousin United Kingdom.
Or who knows, maybe Australia, New Zealand and Canada triple tag team could unload some international whoop toosh on terrorist or questionable nations...
MarkC, right on the money..
Matt had also said it as well.
I will stand by an earlier statement about Bosnia (which upset some people who had the one token tour there) Canada should be a higher intensity peace FORCED implementation and replaced when stabilization starts to appear by "rental euro" armies (LOL thinking hungarians). We could do full on combat operations IF (big IF) we play with big brother America or older cousin United Kingdom.
Or who knows, maybe Australia, New Zealand and Canada triple tag team could unload some international whoop toosh on terrorist or questionable nations...
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I realize when a battle group size element is deployed overseas there is not much room to manoever if you have genuine issues to going into a theatre that may expect long hours in adverse conditions, however Canadian facilities have gone from a ration in a tent to the finest overseas camp ive ever seen.Correct me if im wrong but im wondering, since we scaled back to 700 pers could one assume the majority if not all members on this tour wanted to go or is it a case of a few first timers that realized the overseas thing wasnt for them and thats what the media focused on.
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No-we're not. And that, as a couple of other posters have noted and as we have argued at length on another thread, IMHO is a part of our problem. We need to dump this outdated wasteful and potentially dangerous 1960's idea of "tradesman first, soldier second" (IMHO an Air Force construct in direct opposition to traditional Army and Navy perspectives) and realize that the Cold War with its neatly delineated battlefields and comfy ideas of nice, "secure" Rear Areas is long gone. We need, as Matt pointed out, people who can live and perform as soldiers regardless of their MOCs. Only some will be true "Infantry", (even the USMC agrees with that...) but the rest will all be "soldiers" who can do just as Matt describes and who realize that going on an op in a combat zone means you lower your expectations way down. If you get internet, a mess with a big screen TV, and a weatherhaven with lights and a cot and hot/cold ablutions nearby, great.Enjoy. If not, you remember where you are and what you are there for and suck it up. I wonder how many soldiers would actually agree with the Ombudsman's claims. If his track record from 2PP "Crazy Train" is any indication, I bet there are quite a number of soldiers (of all ranks) who would challenge his statements. Cheers.
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Again I say,
Everyone has their breaking point...unless you've been to yours, then you probably don't understand what the pers described are going thru.
But I do agree, if your getting paid $2000+ a month to be there...then you should expect to work for it a little...
Everyone has their breaking point...unless you've been to yours, then you probably don't understand what the pers described are going thru.
But I do agree, if your getting paid $2000+ a month to be there...then you should expect to work for it a little...
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Well said all, the system is reaping what it has sown.
Aside from the entirely valid points being expressed, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is that for many people this is a â Å“jobâ ? and not a lifestyle, particularly in the purple trades. I was shocked a number of years ago when this topic came up during a discussion and the consensus was this was a job and not a lifestyle. Since that time I've been watching for signs of this attitude and it is all too prevalent, particularly in my Branch since the requirement for the college degree was imposed. Of course they want to work 8-4, maybe until 5 if they can come in late the next day. In fact, I've been told by a new MP that they'd never go on tour "'cause they joined to be a cop, not a soldier". I'm hoping that attitude was an anomaly, but I'm worried it might not be as our training system actually encourages the 9-5 mentality.
I'm sorry, but if doing your job and then having to pull some extra duties is your breaking point, then there is a problem. We no longer teach our recruits how to deal with and function under stress due to a conscious decision to move to a â Å“no stressâ ? training model, at the basic stage of training at least. People thought this was no longer required and that it was too much of a disincentive for potential recruits, never mind that what was going on was, in fact, Stress Inoculation which is now commonly regarded as one of the most effective ways of dealing with, and learning to function under, situational stress. While I agree there was out right abuse going on in some instances, as others have pointed out, when I hit the wall I got up, dusted myself off and went â Å“Hey...that didn't kill me.â ? and carried on with a better understanding of my limits and better yet, I was able to formulate a plan to deal with that particular issue in the future, thereby allowing me to deal with it without falling down. Some people weren't able to pick themselves up and they were told to pack their bags before a substantial amount of time, money and effort had been invested. Now, by the time we identify someone is unable to manage under stress they are so far into the system that there is no easy way to get them out and they end up becoming a burden to themselves and everyone around them and I'm not talking while being on tour either. Some people just weren't cut out to be a soldier, no matter what they may think, and we need to start identifying those individuals at the earliest stages and moving them along before the system decides there is too much time and money invested in the individual to release them for something like unsatisfactory performance under stressful circumstances.
Vimy, Ortona and Kapyong were harder generations, individuals who, for the most part, had enough hardship in their civilian life that the â Å“minorâ ? items such as working long hours under physical hardships and extreme conditions were in some cases, better than their civilian life. Compare that to today's kids where a TV, DVD player, computer and PS2 are standard bedroom items, roughing it is driving to Kananaskis Country with Dad's 35 ft 5th wheel camper trailer (similarly equipped as the bedroom and a portable satellite dish) and walking the block and a half to Mac's for a chocolate bar and Super Size Big Gulp is a ludicrous idea (that's why I have a car!) and of course a 16 hour day is going to be stressful. Not true in all cases of course but how many kids today have even seen a cow up close and personal, let alone killed what they're going to eat?
Another issue which needs to be addressed is the on-going use of civilian contractors. I know this was an issue of concern to the CSS world when it first started up but assurances were made that the troops would benefit from this due to the lower Op Tempo. Unfortunately, the item which never really was addressed is the fact that for each civilian on the ground, that's one less troop for the tasks which need to be done to ensure the camp is safe and liveable, not to mention all those Quarter Guards for visiting VIPs which require 8 hours of practice for a 15 min event, particularly in those instances when there is no D&S Pl or the D&S Pl ends up being tasked with other duties due to short staffing in other areas.
Lastly, yet another perfect example of an article which, when read critically, lacks enough information to form an objective opinion. Reg Force or Reserve? Did they have the benefit of all the pre-deployment training or, as happens in too many cases, and one is too many, did they arrive at the last minute before deployment? If a Reg, are they an individual augmentee or a member of the unit? If a reservist, did they even have the training and experience for the position? Were co-workers able to perform their duties or was the individual having to pick up the slack, thereby increasing their workload? A good example of this one is Militia MPs. Coming up with a number of positions required to do the task then automatically giving 20-25% of those positions to pers who do not have the authority, training or experience to do it either means you can use 20-25% less people or someone has to pick up the slack. Don't get me wrong, for the most part the Militia MP personnel are great and do their best but in this specific instance, the system is failing them by not providing the training required and the Reg Force MPs pick up the slack.
Anyways, way too long...
Aside from the entirely valid points being expressed, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is that for many people this is a â Å“jobâ ? and not a lifestyle, particularly in the purple trades. I was shocked a number of years ago when this topic came up during a discussion and the consensus was this was a job and not a lifestyle. Since that time I've been watching for signs of this attitude and it is all too prevalent, particularly in my Branch since the requirement for the college degree was imposed. Of course they want to work 8-4, maybe until 5 if they can come in late the next day. In fact, I've been told by a new MP that they'd never go on tour "'cause they joined to be a cop, not a soldier". I'm hoping that attitude was an anomaly, but I'm worried it might not be as our training system actually encourages the 9-5 mentality.
Armymedic said:
I'm sorry, but if doing your job and then having to pull some extra duties is your breaking point, then there is a problem. We no longer teach our recruits how to deal with and function under stress due to a conscious decision to move to a â Å“no stressâ ? training model, at the basic stage of training at least. People thought this was no longer required and that it was too much of a disincentive for potential recruits, never mind that what was going on was, in fact, Stress Inoculation which is now commonly regarded as one of the most effective ways of dealing with, and learning to function under, situational stress. While I agree there was out right abuse going on in some instances, as others have pointed out, when I hit the wall I got up, dusted myself off and went â Å“Hey...that didn't kill me.â ? and carried on with a better understanding of my limits and better yet, I was able to formulate a plan to deal with that particular issue in the future, thereby allowing me to deal with it without falling down. Some people weren't able to pick themselves up and they were told to pack their bags before a substantial amount of time, money and effort had been invested. Now, by the time we identify someone is unable to manage under stress they are so far into the system that there is no easy way to get them out and they end up becoming a burden to themselves and everyone around them and I'm not talking while being on tour either. Some people just weren't cut out to be a soldier, no matter what they may think, and we need to start identifying those individuals at the earliest stages and moving them along before the system decides there is too much time and money invested in the individual to release them for something like unsatisfactory performance under stressful circumstances.
Vimy, Ortona and Kapyong were harder generations, individuals who, for the most part, had enough hardship in their civilian life that the â Å“minorâ ? items such as working long hours under physical hardships and extreme conditions were in some cases, better than their civilian life. Compare that to today's kids where a TV, DVD player, computer and PS2 are standard bedroom items, roughing it is driving to Kananaskis Country with Dad's 35 ft 5th wheel camper trailer (similarly equipped as the bedroom and a portable satellite dish) and walking the block and a half to Mac's for a chocolate bar and Super Size Big Gulp is a ludicrous idea (that's why I have a car!) and of course a 16 hour day is going to be stressful. Not true in all cases of course but how many kids today have even seen a cow up close and personal, let alone killed what they're going to eat?
Another issue which needs to be addressed is the on-going use of civilian contractors. I know this was an issue of concern to the CSS world when it first started up but assurances were made that the troops would benefit from this due to the lower Op Tempo. Unfortunately, the item which never really was addressed is the fact that for each civilian on the ground, that's one less troop for the tasks which need to be done to ensure the camp is safe and liveable, not to mention all those Quarter Guards for visiting VIPs which require 8 hours of practice for a 15 min event, particularly in those instances when there is no D&S Pl or the D&S Pl ends up being tasked with other duties due to short staffing in other areas.
Lastly, yet another perfect example of an article which, when read critically, lacks enough information to form an objective opinion. Reg Force or Reserve? Did they have the benefit of all the pre-deployment training or, as happens in too many cases, and one is too many, did they arrive at the last minute before deployment? If a Reg, are they an individual augmentee or a member of the unit? If a reservist, did they even have the training and experience for the position? Were co-workers able to perform their duties or was the individual having to pick up the slack, thereby increasing their workload? A good example of this one is Militia MPs. Coming up with a number of positions required to do the task then automatically giving 20-25% of those positions to pers who do not have the authority, training or experience to do it either means you can use 20-25% less people or someone has to pick up the slack. Don't get me wrong, for the most part the Militia MP personnel are great and do their best but in this specific instance, the system is failing them by not providing the training required and the Reg Force MPs pick up the slack.
Anyways, way too long...
Michael Dorosh
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LOL. How many Canadian soldiers in the Second World War had ever seen a cow or killed their dinner? Most of them came from the cities.
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Here's my 2 cents. I haven't read the entire post but I've read enough to comment. I think that a lot has to do with us being short changed on training at home. When was the last RV? How many long FTXs have we been on? The military can't afford to hold big, long FTXs and this short changing is starting to show in operations. You get used to the hardships by practicing it in the field. When the army can't afford us good, realistic training at home, this stuff starts to show up. Pisses me off to see the government cheaping out on the military and our lives.
