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Indigenous self-ID/"Pretendians" (merged thread)

That means you must honestly believe that the Indigenous Peoples do not deserve a distinct group of benefits.

Maybe you should try and think about what has been done to their race by every Canadian Government which has ever been elected to run this nation.

The original plan was basically genocide. When they realized that wasn't achievable, the government focus shifted to killing the separate and individual Indigenous cultures. Many truly evil techniques were employed, in an attempt to achieve their plan...

The most disgusting plan they cooked up, was to remove the next generation, and placing them in full-time residential schools, where they would not learn about themselves or their people's culture and traditions, but instead, be beaten, raped and murdered. This blatantly inhuman, and downright criminal system ran from 1831, until 19-fucking-96. 165 fucking years.

I could go on writing for days about the other methods the government employed, such as relocating groups of Indigenous to extremely remote northern areas, despite the fact the people they relocated had zero experience in high north survival. Flew them there, dropped them off with some building and hunting supplies, said "good fucking luck", and basically abandoned them there. This plan was double-pronged. If they died, all the better. If they lived, they would help the government maintain sovereignty over that section of the north. When it became evident the relocated groups would, in fact, survive, the government flooded their communities with alcohol, knowing the hardship and chaos such a move would bring.

As I said, I could go on and on, but I'm sure you've heard all the stories... You just don't seem to give a flying fuck.

The separation of children from their families didn't stop with the closure of the last residential schools. The government simply diverted the task, by giving legal kidnapping rights to the various provincial Child Protection Service agencies to remove newborn babies, basically in the delivery room, if the mother has any history of substance abuse. Every baby taken, is one less who will learn their culture, and one less "savage" for the government to unnecessarily concern themselves with.

The various methods used by the Canadian Government, over the past two centuries plus, are directly and exclusively responsible for the current state of the Indigenous population. As white people, we have no one else to blame but our predecessors. When their grand plan of killing off an entire race within the country didn't pan out, they flailed, and strung together a multi-century collection of inhuman, ad-hoc measures which slowly destroyed the Indigenous People's traditional way of life, their autonomy as a people, their belief in themselves, the manner in which they were perceived by other races, their ability to live normal, sober lives, their mental health on a generational scale, the intense pride they once possessed, their ability to provide for themselves and their families, and on and on.

Every Canadian Government which has ever existed, has played a role in the destruction of the Indigenous Peoples. People who started out as a race of intensely proud warriors, and highly-skilled, self-sufficient hunter/gatherers. Following centuries of endless criminal actions, and negative interference, however, they are understandably a broken, defeated and almost completely reliant people.

WE DID THAT. THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLES ARE IN NO WAY RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR CURRENT STATE. WE ARE.

Try and think about that, the next time you feel like fucking spouting off about a certain race receiving benefits others do not. That was completely by design, and exactly the way the government both wanted, and still wants it.

Got a fucking problem with the situation? Blame the fucking people who are actually responsible, instead of letting your bullshit racist biases do the talking.
I do not believe any group of people deserve a distinct group of benefits. Racist biases? You mean believing everyone should be treated equally under the law, with the same rights and privileges regardless of birth?

Ahh yes, such a racist concept, as opposed to a blood quantum based accident of birth system that grants specific rights and privileges to certain people others will never be able earn or achieve.

My son is native. He has all sorts of special privileges and benefits a regular child wouldn’t have access to. Some of which are likely going to be extremely useful for him with the various issues he has. And that is wrong. In my opinion everyone should have access to the same benefits.

I know bad things happened to the various native populations. I am well acquainted with their history (and I say acquainted because there is such a large and expansive history trying to learn all of it would be a huge undertaking with so many different tribes and histories), and it is truly sad much of what has been done.

That being said bad things have happened to all sorts of people all around the world for all of history. Its only a matter of picking a time and a place. Some of those bad things were done by various native groups as well. Slavery, war, all the various evils mankind has inflicted on each other, all has been embodied by one group or another.

To me the only way to truly move forward is to make everyone equal and provide equal treatment. How we get there still has to be determined, but that should be the end goal for all.
 
"We"? Hoop your forehead. I did nothing....
Have you done anything to attempt to curb our government's continued atrocities? I will assume you have not.

In situations such as our government's centuries-long mistreatment of an entire race, inaction is just as harmful and the mistreatment itself. I said "we", because I possess both a clear understanding of the mistreatment, and I have sufficient self-awareness to realize I have done nothing tangible in an attempt to stop it from happening.

My reasons for inaction, are a belief that alone I would achieve nothing, along with the fact I have never been leadership material. I receive and carry out orders well, but I'm certainly not the person any team would want giving orders, and delegating responsibility.

As this is an Army forum, I am basically certain there must be a number of excellent leaders present. Probably one or two in this very thread. The only thing I fear, is that while those very individuals would likely be very effective at leading a movement for change, I have my doubts they would possess the desire required to accept the task.
 
The current system isn't doing them any favors. They're caught in a continuous abuse&victim cycle. Benefits aren't doing shit. If anything it's making their culture and lives worse.

Time to get rid of distinct benefits and help indigenous Canadians become prosperous.
Oh, I totally agree with you.

The truth is, the benefits were never intended to help Indigenous people "get a leg up". The purpose of the benefits, was to remove their autonomy, and self-sufficiency. The government wanted them to stop living off the land, because that was such a large part of their culture and identity. The general belief of early governments was very much that the Indigenous population were, indeed savages who posed a genuine threat to both settlers and their plans of colonization.

The problem which now exists, is the sheer number of broken and defeated individuals within the Indigenous community. Remember, this is the legacy of over two centuries of government programs designed to fail, and intended to inflict pain and suffering upon an entire population. Although much of the implementation and enactment of said policies were sloppy and even botched, the government always knew the underlying intended outcome. Also remember the original plan was complete genocide.

So, how do we as a nation, assist these people back to their feet, and guide them back to self-sufficiency? A job which would basically an impossibility, without the full support of the federal and provincial governments. I assure you that those entities would, for the most part, prefer to leave Indigenous Peoples in the exact broken state which represents their current reality. The deep primal fear which sincerely terrified the earliest Canadian Governments, still haunts the governments of this nation in 2024. It may not be borne from the same delusions of violent uprisings, complete with scalpings and burned-out chuckwagons, but that same delusional fear is very much alive and well.

Realistically, even with the full support of government, the generational nature of the pain and intense trauma with which Indigenous Peoples must deal, dictates the absolute need for a long-term approach, using long-term solutions, spanning multiple generations. Repairing the damage done would require not months or years, but multiple decades.

I'm not sure how many here are familiar with the concept of generational trauma, but when a society or culture is repeatedly traumatized in a mass sense, for an extended period of time, it becomes so ingrained in the people of that society or culture, it begins to take on a hereditary nature, because it actually can cause genetic changes within those who directly experienced the trauma, first-hand. Those genetic changes are then handed-down to their children, continuing the cycle. This occurs whether or not that next generation experiences similar levels of trauma, or not. Add to that, the common fact that people dealing with intense trauma rarely make for the best parents, and the environmental side of the inherited trauma is complete.

The task of reversing the negative effects of more than two-hundred years of what must have, and still likely feels like inescapable government-inflicted trauma, is a monumental undertaking, to say the least. But, before anyone starts suggesting we should abruptly end the now inherent governmental reliance which was forced upon Indigenous Peoples by past Canadian Governments, the deep trauma inflicted by those very same governments must be addressed, and, at minimum, an effective trauma recovery action plan must be in place.

Indigenous People's biggest mistake, was assuming that the new settlers with whom they were interacting, were doing so in good faith.
 
Popcorn time
Go pop some... and you'd better make enough to last you a while.

I want as many people as possible to be present for this discussion. If there's one thing I learned during my time serving, it was that anytime there is a seemingly insurmountable task, or excessively steep uphill battle, I understood the most fundamental reasons for the Army's existence.

With a little luck, and if the Serviceable Air Assets Gods happened to be smiling upon us, we could maybe get you guys where you needed to be. But, in the end, the act of getting the toughest jobs done was always shouldered by the men and women in green. (including name tag and epaulette embroidery stitching)

I always had the highest respect for those in combat arms, simply because you all deserved it.
 
I was just speaking to two Haisla members who are crew on the new Haisea tugs destined for Kitimat. The Haisla Nation instead of waiting for someone to help them have been working hard for years to improve life for their people. By working with LNGCanada and other partners, they have an agreement to provide most of the crew for the harbour and escort tugs. The young man I spoke to was stoked to be crew and wants to one day become a Ship's Pilot. That sort of opportunity and thinking is what is going to change things, not endless yapping at a table in Ottawa. If Indigenous people want change, they are going to need to make it happen, at their level and at the Band Council level.
 
I do not believe any group of people deserve a distinct group of benefits. Racist biases? You mean believing everyone should be treated equally under the law, with the same rights and privileges regardless of birth?

Ahh yes, such a racist concept, as opposed to a blood quantum based accident of birth system that grants specific rights and privileges to certain people others will never be able earn or achieve.

My son is native. He has all sorts of special privileges and benefits a regular child wouldn’t have access to. Some of which are likely going to be extremely useful for him with the various issues he has. And that is wrong. In my opinion everyone should have access to the same benefits.

I know bad things happened to the various native populations. I am well acquainted with their history (and I say acquainted because there is such a large and expansive history trying to learn all of it would be a huge undertaking with so many different tribes and histories), and it is truly sad much of what has been done.

That being said bad things have happened to all sorts of people all around the world for all of history. Its only a matter of picking a time and a place. Some of those bad things were done by various native groups as well. Slavery, war, all the various evils mankind has inflicted on each other, all has been embodied by one group or another.

To me the only way to truly move forward is to make everyone equal and provide equal treatment. How we get there still has to be determined, but that should be the end goal for all.
As far as your "everyone should be treated equally under the law, with the same rights and privileges regardless at birth" song and dance is concerned... You must think you're discussing this matter who has no idea about the long and dark history of the Canadian Government's treatment of Indigenous Peoples, or the most common written sleights-of-hand used by conservatives to disguise their socially-unacceptable opinions on matters of race.

The first reason your pipe dream is not only an example of anti-Indigenous, bigoted rhetoric, is the simple fact that we're about 200 years too late to simply throw everyone onto a level playing field, and just play the game, free of any sort of handicaps, or head-starts. You coyly position your stance in a manner, which to the ignorant or uninformed would almost appear to be, what your type almost obsessively refers to as "woke". But, even slight scrutiny will reveal the absolutely devastating effect a level playing field would unleash upon those in marginalized groups.

Unquestionably, the most devastated of those groups would be Indigenous Peoples.

This segment from one of my previous replies, explains this a bit more in depth...
The truth is, the benefits were never intended to help Indigenous people "get a leg up". The purpose of the benefits, was to remove their autonomy, and self-sufficiency. The government wanted them to stop living off the land, because that was such a large part of their culture and identity. The general belief of early governments was very much that the Indigenous population were, indeed savages who posed a genuine threat to both settlers and their plans of colonization.

The problem which now exists, is the sheer number of broken and defeated individuals within the Indigenous community. Remember, this is the legacy of over two centuries of government programs designed to fail, and intended to inflict pain and suffering upon an entire population. Although much of the implementation and enactment of said policies were sloppy and even botched, the government always knew the underlying intended outcome. Also remember the original plan was complete genocide.

Not surprisingly, the main problem which makes true equality a complete impossibility at this time, or at any time in the medium-range future, is the very real, and severe physical and mental toll which more than two centuries of mistreatment has taken on the Indigenous population in Canada. As I mentioned yesterday, the broken and defeated state of the Indigenous population in Canada, is, in no way whatsoever, the fault of Indigenous people.

Although, it might be possible for a person who is ignorant of our nation's rather sordid history, and actually deplorable record in the area of basic human rights, to see Indigenous individuals inebriated on the street, and figure they are simply living their chosen kife anyone who has a grasp of the general summary of events, should have no issue, at all, deciding where the blame and responsibility lies, when it comes to the broken and defeated state of Indigenous Peoples in Canada.

Anyone who both knows the facts, and is free from any ulterior agendas, or bigoted opinions of Indigenous Peoples, should be able to easily see the unmitigated disaster which your idea of true equality would create for the Indigenous population.

Here is another pertinent passage I posted in an earlier reply...
Realistically, even with the full support of government, the generational nature of the pain and intense trauma with which Indigenous Peoples must deal, dictates the absolute need for a long-term approach, using long-term solutions, spanning multiple generations. Repairing the damage done would require not months or years, but multiple decades.

I'm not sure how many here are familiar with the concept of generational trauma, but when a society or culture is repeatedly traumatized in a mass sense, for an extended period of time, it becomes so ingrained in the people of that society or culture, it begins to take on a hereditary nature, because it actually can cause genetic changes within those who directly experienced the trauma, first-hand. Those genetic changes are then handed-down to their children, continuing the cycle. This occurs whether or not that next generation experiences similar levels of trauma, or not. Add to that, the common fact that people dealing with intense trauma rarely make for the best parents, and the environmental side of the inherited trauma is complete.

The task of reversing the negative effects of more than two-hundred years of what must have, and still likely feels like inescapable government-inflicted trauma, is a monumental undertaking, to say the least. But, before anyone starts suggesting we should abruptly end the now inherent governmental reliance which was forced upon Indigenous Peoples by past Canadian Governments, the deep trauma inflicted by those very same governments must be addressed, and, at minimum, an effective trauma recovery action plan must be in place.

Indigenous People's biggest mistake, was assuming that the new settlers with whom they were interacting, were doing so in good faith.

In a nutshell, I am not stating that a level playing field is universally undesirable and problematic. In fact, I feel the exact opposite. I view a level field of equality for all citizens of Canada, or even the world, as being the ideal model for any society. However, the government's prolonged misuse, and straight-up abuse of Indigenous Peoples resulted in the vast majority within that group sustaining serious damage to their mental and physical well-being. To even consider sweeping changes to the way of life, and reliance upon social systems, something which was pushed upon them by the government, is beyond unreasonable.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you're against anyone catching a break, for which they didn't "earn" through "sluggin' their guts out". Aren't you?

Instead of being glad that one less person had to take "the hard road", anytime someone strikes it lucky, and gets to skip one of life's various proving grounds, it burns your ass. I'd imagine the concept of free college tuition makes your blood boil.

Or, you possibly only possess an extremely simplistic understanding of equality. The policies which aim to create a society which is equal, are far more complex than "everybody starts at zero". Such policies would place Indigenous Peoples at a massive disadvantage, compared to basically everyone else. Considering they aren't to blame for their plight, you are either incapable of grasping just how completely broken this sector of the population actually is, or you straight-up just don't care.

The situation couldn't be more clear, and neither could the historical facts. Indigenous culture within Canada, and the people of whom it's comprised, have been gutted by the actions of every Canadian Government ever elected. You don't disagree with that much, do you?

You are correct in your claim that many cultures and races have had terrible atrocities committed against their people. I'm just at a loss as to why you would ever bring that up, presumably to excuse some of the child rape and murder, or not even giving enough of a fuck to ensure all Indigenous communities have the very most basic necessities, like clean running water?

Make no mistake, The atrocities which have been committed by every Canadian Government for literal centuries, rank quite high on the all-time list. The fact that nearly every atrocity was designed, and intended to take as large of a negative toll on Indigenous Peoples, as possible, is bad enough. What is even worse however, is the fact these horrific things, and unspeakable crimes happened right here in Canada... A nation which, for decades, stood proud as the bright beacon on the hill. A bastion for human rights.

The cover-ups, attempts at revisionist history, and endless lies, allowed Canada to larp as one of the few countries deserving of it's first-world status, a blueprint for multi-culturism done right. An example for the entire world to follow. Basically, total bullshit. Those in charge were clearly adept in the art of deception and illusion.

Yep... Everyone knows everything now. The truth just keeps piling up, and very little has been the type which will begin the long road to repairing Canada's reputation, and the manner in which we are perceived by the international community.

Despite the nation's reputation being in the worst shape since it was formed, Governments, along with staunch anti-Indigenous bigots continue to drag their feet on drinking water, and searching landfills. While I understand 200 year habits die-hard, but yoo-hoo... The fucking world is now watching. The continued bare-minimum attitude toward Indigenous Peoples, and their desires, truly speaks volumes.

I was hopeful the discovery of the residential school mass graves, would finally be enough of a jolt to finally make enough Canadians realize the harsh reality that Canada was built upon violence, murder, hatred and the blood of Indigenous and Chinese people.... and for a week or two, people genuinely appeared to give a fuck. Then, their rage returned to the same indifference which is responsible for much of the heavy lifting, absolutely essential in facilitating the still-ongoing two-hundred year, slow-motion genocide. Fortunately, the true values held by the first Canadians have softened over the past two centuries. That doesn't mean we solved the massive misconceptions, and ignorance which continue to cause an uncommon reliance upon bullshit stereotypes to this very day.

The earliest immigrants to Canada were nothing more than slightly cunning thieves. Early-day squatters, who had an undeniably strong penchant for violence and murder. I'm glad that unlike the shitty governments we've all had a hand in electing, the stereotypical Canadian's perception of Indigenous Peoples has improved substantially, over the past quarter-century.

It is my sincere hope that this very positive upward trend is just the beginning, of what will become a groundswell movement of unprecedented support, for Indigenous Peoples. A movement possessing the level of support required to assist every Indigenous person, who needs a caring and guiding hand back to their feet.

Once a good percentage of the Indigenous population is actively involved in whatever form of therapeutic rehabilitation is best suited to their unique set of personal traumas, the new Indigenous cultures will rise again, and begin to define the modern Indigenous people. Once they are shown that they are loved, and respected, they should begin to view themselves in the same way.

Self-love & Self-respect > Self-loathing & Self-destruction
 
I was just speaking to two Haisla members who are crew on the new Haisea tugs destined for Kitimat. The Haisla Nation instead of waiting for someone to help them have been working hard for years to improve life for their people. By working with LNGCanada and other partners, they have an agreement to provide most of the crew for the harbour and escort tugs. The young man I spoke to was stoked to be crew and wants to one day become a Ship's Pilot. That sort of opportunity and thinking is what is going to change things, not endless yapping at a table in Ottawa. If Indigenous people want change, they are going to need to make it happen, at their level and at the Band Council level.
100 % agree.
 
Well, that was fun.

Regarding the Kamloops Mass Graves, 3 years on and they are still 'investigating'.
 
Meanwhile, Public Service Pretendians...

'Growing tension' inside the public service over Indigenous self-identification

Indigenous Services Canada’s top bureaucrat addresses topic in leaked blog to staff


Indigenous Services Canada's top official addressed the "contentious issue" of Indigenous identity in the public service by urging greater honesty in self-identification, in a recent internal blog leaked to CBC Indigenous.

"The key is to honestly tell your truth," wrote deputy minister Gina Wilson in the blog, which was circulated internally June 13.

Her post followed efforts by First Nations, Inuit and Métis leaders to draw attention to the issue, including by demanding governments act to halt the rise of Indigenous identity theft.

Other sectors like academia and the arts have faced reckonings and controversies, but race-shifting, as the phenomenon is sometimes known, in the bureaucracy has largely escaped scrutiny.

Wilson is from Kitigan Zibi Anishinabeg, an Algonquin community in Quebec, and has served in numerous executive posts in government including as the deputy minister champion for Indigenous federal employees.

In the blog, she acknowledged the challenge posed by false Indigenous identity claims and reminded staff of their commitment to prevent misrepresentation.

"This is a challenge that can be addressed, in part, by raising awareness and encouraging those who might falsely claim to be Indigenous to find their own authentic identity," reads the blog.

 
Unless this is done at the GoC HR level no manager is going to touch this with a mile long pole (nor should they have to).

I've done a number of hirings recently and nothing like that came up at all, so was only part of the optional self identification you can do after hiring. Maybe it's relevant for some specific jobs (ie whatever INAC is now) but is normally an excluded criteria you can't even consider (along with gender etc etc). There is a really weird dichotomy where the GoC wants to increase diversity in the workforce, doesn't really do anything to get more diverse groups to specifically apply, then complains the workforce isn't diverse enough. Last time I checked if you set goals but do nothing to meet said goal your chances for success are slim, but can happen by accident.
 
I wish them luck, in a society and time in which self-identification in all manner of things has become almost untouchable.
 
Self inflicted wounds and likley firm definitions might face a Charter Challenge.

Season 1 Episode 3 GIF by The Roku Channel
 
I used to inspect the SW Ontaio Correctionaal facility. There was a door that led into the ceremony room for indigenous prisoners. The sign on the door read 'Original People.'
 
What is one to make of an Anglo-Scot with an Oji-Cree Great Grandmother who marries into a Metis Huron Wendat family living on land claimed by the Haudenosaunee in Quebec?
 
I often get a kick out of the 'your/our truth' logic.

The concept of 'self identification' is always going to result in conflict and pretendians. When there is money, benefits, advantages, etc. on the table for a certain group, some people want to be part of said group. Some groups say it should be entirely up to them to decide who can join the club simply as a matter of sovereignty and self-determination, and decry any outside or scientific attempt to interfere. Other Canadians who are picking up the tab might think otherwise.
 
There is an entire wiki subject on the motivations of “Pretendians”:


Most all of that is garbage, it offers reasons like settler ideology and white supremacy.

More realistic is the same reasons humans do much of anything. Motivations along these lines are much more likely.


I would theorize that social status, power, acceptance and idealism are all more probable than a hidden racist agenda to undermine an indigenous culture.
 
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