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Indirect Fires Modernization Project - C3/M777 Replacement

For a system like Archer or RCH 155 they take about a year to develop as you need special tech training just to repair the myriad of niggling software and hardware problems, or have your crews learn to troubleshoot problems.

Pro's and Con's here. Overall if we get any SPG it will be a massive leap forward.

If we bought refurbished M109s, it would be concurrently a step backwards and forwards ;)

Army to buy 30 reconditioned and upgraded 155-millimeter self-propelled artillery pieces​



 
If we bought refurbished M109s, it would be concurrently a step backwards and forwards ;)

Army to buy 30 reconditioned and upgraded 155-millimeter self-propelled artillery pieces​



Back in 96/97 I used to work about 7mins from that location in Warren, MI. Used to drive by it about 5-7 times a week.
 
How about the BAE Caiman.
Instead of ram rodding in some other platform to replace the disaster that is the TAPV we have to think, what is the role we want? I'd argue that roles for the TAPV need to be split. For the rear area and convoy escort tasks, maybe an up armoured LUV entrant with an RWS is enough. You'd have more dismounts, more mobility and it'd be cheaper and easier to train troops on.

For the more kinetic roles, especially with the RCAC cavalry squadrons, it needs to be a proper AFV, not this dog-sauce PMV larping as a combat recce vehicle. I think the French Jaguar would be excellent in that role.
 
The Panzerhabute 2000 is having this problem.
Panzerhaubitze 2000 was effectively NATOs first attempt at a modern SP. It brought into play an L52 gun, an autoloader, and digital fire control.

All three are potential mechanical failpoints. The barrel has to deal with very high pressures and barrel erosion due to the more powerful charges needed to move the projectiles further down range. Autoloaders are mechanically complicated and prone to breakdown due to having to repeatedly, without fail, manage to handle at the same time heavy projectiles and lighter charges - all this in dirty and rough conditions. Digital fire control - well electronics built for small scale systems are generally not as robustly tested as large scale consumer goods and also have to deal with the rigours of travel and shock of firing.

PH2000 is old tech and built in low quantities <500. I wouldn't use it as a comparative standard. Newer gear is more reliable in most cases. I wouldn't put any stock in the barrel wear issues. It depends not only on who built the barrel, but its usage. Barrel wear isn't measured by rounds fired but EFCs fired. EFCs are dependent on range so how the gun is used makes a big difference. Projectiles make a difference too. Canada's experiences with Nextor's LG1 - same outfit that builds Caesar - isn't good. There were barrel issues and ammunition driving band issues which resulted in restrictions to the gun's use.

Autoloaders are a major issue as can be seen by the fact that the US still hasn't built a reliable one for the M109 (for that matter they don't have an M109 L52 barrel except in prototype state) Honestly, I've worked in 109 turrets and loading is perhaps the most complex job as it requires dealing with ever changing parameters of selecting projectiles, fuzes and charges and physically preparing them for firing and getting them to the chamber. Technology has helped to make this easier, but, quite frankly, there are things that a human is capable of doing that machines have problems in doing reliably. What may work on a ship has problems scaling down to a much lighter vehicle.

On top of that, it's much easier and faster to replace a tired or damaged human #4 in an M109 turret, that fixing a balky autoloader. Taking the human out of the chain is always a risky venture. The older A4+ versions of the M109 had very few sighting instruments that could fail. An Archer and RCH has a very complex digital/mechanical system with numerous fail points - as does the Caesar albeit slightly less so.

Quite frankly, the problems that I see with Caesar can be fixed with a heavier truck and an armour plated turret to contain the crew and up the number of ready rounds. Other wheeled systems like Archer and RCH have learned to deal with the weight burden. I don't care if it doesn't have an autoloader and that there is a crew in the turret to do the manual tasks of laying and loading the gun as they do now in the open. Adding an armoured limber vehicle is also a simple task. My view on Caesar is simply that leaving the crew exposed is a needlessly callous and irresponsible decision. Even something as simple as side plates as on old WW2 guns would be a step forward.

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If we bought refurbished M109s

Re . I see nothing wrong with refurbished M109A7s as the chassis and automotives are brand new. There is nothing wrong with the turret and the electric drives are a great step forward. I see nothing wrong with not having an autoloader BUT I wouldn't consider buying an M109 unless there is a clear and built in upgrade path to an L52 barrel.

🍻
 
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For the rear area and convoy escort tasks, maybe an up armoured LUV entrant with an RWS is enough. You'd have more dismounts, more mobility and it'd be cheaper and easier to train troops on.
Sounds like the Caiman.
For the more kinetic roles, especially with the RCAC cavalry squadrons, it needs to be a proper AFV, not this dog-sauce PMV larping as a combat recce vehicle. I think the French Jaguar would be excellent in that role.
Or a CV90 variant.
 
Under the heading of "Stuff to Throw at People"


It is intended for company through brigade-level maneuver elements.
it must operate similarly to a fighter jet, but take off and land vertically and cost less than $100,000 to manufacture at scale
The Army is requiring Viper to carry a warhead exceeding 22 pounds with a range of 180 miles. The combination of vertical takeoff, high speed and load/range capabilities will be a breakthrough for the current military landscape, Thornton said.
Viper will use artificial intelligence to navigate and target and uses several different radio frequencies for communicating, targeting and navigating
1742487322035.png

The emergence of low-cost, man-portable intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance assets has resulted in a new challenge for the Army: maneuver elements are now able to sense farther than they can shoot, a company press release said.

Mach hopes to provide soldiers with a missile that has the range of a High Mobility Artillery Rocket System, the speed of a cruise missile and the precision of a Hellfire munition, the statement said.

I suggest that if this aircraft can hit targets at 180 miles (290 km) reliably for <$100,000 then Kratos/Anduril/GAA drones for less than the price of a Tomahawk should also be reasonable.

88 F35s at 100,000,000 apiece

Or 65 F35s and 2300 Tomahawk/Valkyries or 65 F35s and 23,000 Vipers (or Canadian manufactured equivalents).



 
You get a better sense of the scale of the thing in the video with the kid beside it. God I'm old.
 
Sounds like the Caiman.

It doesn't need to be that big. Whatever is chosen for LUV will be plenty.

Or a CV90 variant.

Or a CV90 variant. The CV9035NL MLU is cool and has some interesting kit for both recce and cavalry actions. A squadron with two troops of these, a troop of dismounts in CV90 Armadillos or TLAVs or ACSV or LUV or literally anything armoured (although preferably tracked) and a mortar/drone support Troop would be a deadly F echelon.
 
And still on the subject of throwing stuff

Canada's rocket experts. The Black Brant is still in production (limited). And the CRV7 is still referenced in their literature.

So they can throw stuff great distances. I have no sense if they can hit anything. Might want to hire some Polish or Ukrainian engineers for that.

 
Panzerhaubitze 2000 was effectively NATOs first attempt at a modern SP. It brought into play an L52 gun, an autoloader, and digital fire control.

All three are potential mechanical failpoints. The barrel has to deal with very high pressures and barrel erosion due to the more powerful charges needed to move the projectiles further down range. Autoloaders are mechanically complicated and prone to breakdown due to having to repeatedly, without fail, manage to handle at the same time heavy projectiles and lighter charges - all this in dirty and rough conditions. Digital fire control - well electronics built for small scale systems are generally not as robustly tested as large scale consumer goods and also have to deal with the rigours of travel and shock of firing.

PH2000 is old tech and built in low quantities <500. I wouldn't use it as a comparative standard. Newer gear is more reliable in most cases. I wouldn't put any stock in the barrel wear issues. It depends not only on who built the barrel, but its usage. Barrel wear isn't measured by rounds fired but EFCs fired. EFCs are dependent on range so how the gun is used makes a big difference. Projectiles make a difference too. Canada's experiences with Nextor's LG1 - same outfit that builds Caesar - isn't good. There were barrel issues and ammunition driving band issues which resulted in restrictions to the gun's use.

Autoloaders are a major issue as can be seen by the fact that the US still hasn't built a reliable one for the M109 (for that matter they don't have an M109 L52 barrel except in prototype state) Honestly, I've worked in 109 turrets and loading is perhaps the most complex job as it requires dealing with ever changing parameters of selecting projectiles, fuzes and charges and physically preparing them for firing and getting them to the chamber. Technology has helped to make this easier, but, quite frankly, there are things that a human is capable of doing that machines have problems in doing reliably. What may work on a ship has problems scaling down to a much lighter vehicle.

On top of that, it's much easier and faster to replace a tired or damaged human #4 in an M109 turret, that fixing a balky autoloader. Taking the human out of the chain is always a risky venture. The older A4+ versions of the M109 had very few sighting instruments that could fail. An Archer and RCH has a very complex digital/mechanical system with numerous fail points - as does the Caesar albeit slightly less so.

Quite frankly, the problems that I see with Caesar can be fixed with a heavier truck and an armour plated turret to contain the crew and up the number of ready rounds. Other wheeled systems like Archer and RCH have learned to deal with the weight burden. I don't care if it doesn't have an autoloader and that there is a crew in the turret to do the manual tasks of laying and loading the gun as they do now in the open. Adding an armoured limber vehicle is also a simple task. My view on Caesar is simply that leaving the crew exposed is a needlessly callous and irresponsible decision. Even something as simple as side plates as on old WW2 guns would be a step forward.





Re . I see nothing wrong with refurbished M109A7s as the chassis and automotives are brand new. There is nothing wrong with the turret and the electric drives are a great step forward. I see nothing wrong with not having an autoloader BUT I wouldn't consider buying an M109 unless there is a clear and built in upgrade path to an L52 barrel.

🍻
A loading assistant device and a ammunition handling system still are important and reduces the wear and tear on the gun crew in a somewhat cramped vehicle.
 
A loading assistant device and a ammunition handling system still are important and reduces the wear and tear on the gun crew in a somewhat cramped vehicle.
I agree.

We had two different types of rammer for the M109 over time. They each had their pluses and minuses and their are better ones in service now.

Consistent ramming is critical for any gun and hard to do manually in a cramped cab. That needs to be augmented by a simple system to move rounds from the ammo bustle onto the loading tray but it has to be such as to not hold up the loading process. 93 pounds is not too heavy for a gunner to handle repetitively as long as the lift is more or less on the same plane and not, for example, from the floor to the breach.

There is an excellent video which shows the in-cab drills inside an M109A7, an M109A3GN (German/Norwegian type with sliding breach) and an M109A6. The A6 rammer is identical to Canada's A4+. The A7 is, IMHO, superior to the A6 but still requires a lift from rack to loader.

There's also a video of the K9 with a semi-autoloader which shows what's possible, but it includes more complex machinery. It looks more efficient but a tad slower. I really do not know enough about it one way or the other. One thing we haven't discussed here is inductive multi-function fuze setting. More expensive but really useful.

🍻
 
I agree.

We had two different types of rammer for the M109 over time. They each had their pluses and minuses and their are better ones in service now.

Consistent ramming is critical for any gun and hard to do manually in a cramped cab. That needs to be augmented by a simple system to move rounds from the ammo bustle onto the loading tray but it has to be such as to not hold up the loading process. 93 pounds is not too heavy for a gunner to handle repetitively as long as the lift is more or less on the same plane and not, for example, from the floor to the breach.

There is an excellent video which shows the in-cab drills inside an M109A7, an M109A3GN (German/Norwegian type with sliding breach) and an M109A6. The A6 rammer is identical to Canada's A4+. The A7 is, IMHO, superior to the A6 but still requires a lift from rack to loader.

There's also a video of the K9 with a semi-autoloader which shows what's possible, but it includes more complex machinery. It looks more efficient but a tad slower. I really do not know enough about it one way or the other. One thing we haven't discussed here is inductive multi-function fuze setting. More expensive but really useful.

🍻
By the way just got myself one of these 3D printed 105mm HE shells

 
If it can do more that hold papers in place it’s a viable replacement.
I would love to give a piece of my mind to whoever approved that monstrosity. Grease nipples under the armoured plate? What a fabulous idea! Having to use a spreader on the frame to pull pack? Neat!
 
I would love to give a piece of my mind to whoever approved that monstrosity. Grease nipples under the armoured plate? What a fabulous idea! Having to use a spreader on the frame to pull pack? Neat!
WWII panther had grease nipples in easy to reach place, with grease lines going to where it's required. Same on the mobile crane I was looking at built in the 1950's .
 
Also interesting about the Common Armoured Vehicle 6x6, the MT-LB replacement (FAMOUS ATV) and the truck mounted buffer system that accommodates both 81mm and 120mm mortar barrels (TREMOS)

For a mobilized army of 285,000 - according to the TREMOS article - Finland has 716 deployable 81mm mortars in storage and 698 120mm. The 81s are manpack and the 120s are manpack and towed. The intent seems to be to mount all of their mortars and keep them mobile.

Mobility contributes to improved survivability of indirect fire systems like mortars. A towed mortar can take minutes to unhook from its vehicle and dig into place ready to fire. They are also very heavy, the Heavy Mortar 120 KRH used by the Finnish Army, for example, has a total weight of 500 kg. The drive gear alone weighs 215 kg and the tube is 100 kg. This means that these systems cannot be moved quickly, and the likelihood is that a crew would disperse away from the mortar rather than move it if they became aware of an enemy drone or received incoming fire. So, by mounting the mortar on a vehicle that requires little to no setup before firing, Finland can improve the survivability of its mortar crews by allowing them to move as soon as a fire mission is complete, which minimises the window for an opponent to detect and locate the source of fire and bring their own rounds down on the target.

That said, there is evidence in Ukraine of Russian units deliberately bumping Ukrainian howitzers out of their hides by firing at them with artillery. They do this so that they can engage them with a Lancet loitering munition once the howitzer is on the road. The current school of thought on artillery survival tends to emphasise the need for rapid movement between positions and to relocate once guns have been unmasked. Russia’s tactics in Ukraine indicate that this may not always improve survivability.

In addition to survivability, however, the Finnish Army emphasises mobility in its doctrine and expects its units to move quickly and to exploit their terrain to maximise lethality and effect against an invading Russian force. In that case, the development of TREMOS is a sound decision, as it will enable infantry brigades to take firepower with them and support their indirect fire needs with greater mobility.



1742519159904.pngCAV 6x6.jpeg




1742519571067.png

The ARVE got me to thinking about those M777s. There was a portee concept for those that was compatible with C130 deployment. It left the gun available to be deployed independently of the truck.

1742519780737.png 1742519842218.png

 
Also interesting about the Common Armoured Vehicle 6x6, the MT-LB replacement (FAMOUS ATV) and the truck mounted buffer system that accommodates both 81mm and 120mm mortar barrels (TREMOS)

For a mobilized army of 285,000 - according to the TREMOS article - Finland has 716 deployable 81mm mortars in storage and 698 120mm. The 81s are manpack and the 120s are manpack and towed. The intent seems to be to mount all of their mortars and keep them mobile.





View attachment 92087View attachment 92088




View attachment 92089

The ARVE got me to thinking about those M777s. There was a portee concept for those that was compatible with C130 deployment. It left the gun available to be deployed independently of the truck.

View attachment 92090 View attachment 92091

I'm sure it's perfectly effective but my God, that shit is hideous.
 
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