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Sig_Des said:
This post perfectly exemplifies what I described in my last post.
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This post perfectly exemplifies what I described in my last post.
D
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There is few things Id like to say on behalf of the program.
1- with a society that is getting fatter and fatter each year,
2- with a society that leaves little place for sports in school due to budget restrain,
3- with an army the does not have enough people
4- with an army that is required to be on operational terrains
The program might me a good thing. Don't get me wrong. People considering on joining the CF should be in better shape. But if you take out all applicant that does not fit the CF fitness level. how many people would join?
I for myself lost 20 pounds since the middle of September and intend to continue to loose some. I'm am in a system....(public Quebec system) that is doing nothing to encourage people to get in shape. I cannot tell for other province, but in Quebec, there is not a week were they are not talking about the society getting fatter and fatter.
If eventually I get my component transfer and I was offered to do it... well I sure would think about it if it permitted me to be in better shape.
Don't See it as negative, see it more as a tool offered for people who are willing to make the effort required to join the FC.
(OK I am over idealist)
1- with a society that is getting fatter and fatter each year,
2- with a society that leaves little place for sports in school due to budget restrain,
3- with an army the does not have enough people
4- with an army that is required to be on operational terrains
The program might me a good thing. Don't get me wrong. People considering on joining the CF should be in better shape. But if you take out all applicant that does not fit the CF fitness level. how many people would join?
I for myself lost 20 pounds since the middle of September and intend to continue to loose some. I'm am in a system....(public Quebec system) that is doing nothing to encourage people to get in shape. I cannot tell for other province, but in Quebec, there is not a week were they are not talking about the society getting fatter and fatter.
If eventually I get my component transfer and I was offered to do it... well I sure would think about it if it permitted me to be in better shape.
Don't See it as negative, see it more as a tool offered for people who are willing to make the effort required to join the FC.
(OK I am over idealist)
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RFT was started in September 2006 so that those who failed their vo2 wouldn't be sent home(we need recruits)...we could train them and bring them up to standard, then retest. Sounds good to me, and when an old platoon mate of mine was given the opportunity of being part of the pilot platoon, I was excited for him. He did the program(and loved it), passed the vo2 and was just about off onto platoon when the doc found stress fractures in his foot. He is still on PAT, but definitely does not like where warrior platoon is going.
The recruits(and ocdts) that are currently in RFT are not small. Is this because they didn't train before coming? I am willing to bet on it.
What they need to do is bring back the PT test at the recruiting center, because all I see now is alot of people bunging up a system that is already beginning to see strain with the influx of fit(and semi fit) recruits. RFT is growing faster than I think anyone expected...and it is going to get worse unless something is put in place to weed out those who can not even come close to passing the vo2.
The recruits(and ocdts) that are currently in RFT are not small. Is this because they didn't train before coming? I am willing to bet on it.
What they need to do is bring back the PT test at the recruiting center, because all I see now is alot of people bunging up a system that is already beginning to see strain with the influx of fit(and semi fit) recruits. RFT is growing faster than I think anyone expected...and it is going to get worse unless something is put in place to weed out those who can not even come close to passing the vo2.
mysteriousmind said:
So let's blame society and the school system for young people being unfit. If you are not forced by a school system to play sports then you are too busy playing video games and watching the tube after school/work to break a sweat.
The system enrolls or offers you a component transfer after they have been assessed you as capable and motivated. When you fail to meet the minimum standards unless it is due to injury or illness, then you have misled the system.
Yes indeed the CF needs soldiers and officers - fit ones that don't whine, nitpick and realize they are volunteers. Volunteering to die for their country not volunteering to get fit while they get paid. Unless you were homeless before you joined, then don't look at the recruiting centre as a welfare program office.
Trinity
Army.ca Veteran
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Gunner
I was watching tv news last night and saw a clip that Quebec students
are getting fatter and the parents wanted to know what the school
board was going to do about it.
The school board?
Yup.. blame the school board for the parents responsibilities of raising children.
Heaven forbid anyone take responsibility for their own child.
I was watching tv news last night and saw a clip that Quebec students
are getting fatter and the parents wanted to know what the school
board was going to do about it.
The school board?
Yup.. blame the school board for the parents responsibilities of raising children.
Heaven forbid anyone take responsibility for their own child.
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DeltaWhiskey said:
You're damned right I'll exemplify your description...and if you don't like it, we'll, believe me, there's a lot more like me in the system...And guess what...we'll be in the system when you get in.
I don't hold anything against someone who's out of shape. I don't understand it, but if you can't run, jump, pull, push in a combat situation, you're a liability.
And I don't think I should have to hold your hand and lead you every step of the way so that you can meet the basic entry requirements. You're not in shape? Fine, show some damned self-motivation, and get in shape. Apply later. I never liked taking the Physical assessment out of the recruiting stage.
If there is something, ANYTHING, that keeps you from meeting the minimum requirements to join, wether it be PT, Medical, Security, low CFAT Grade....well, you lick your wounds, you go home, you get ready, and you try again, at your own cost. Then you try another kick at the can.
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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What are the statistics on "Age" in the RFT?
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Hopefully personal responsibility isn't something that died out some time in the pre-PC 80's/early-90's...nothing irks me more than it always being something other than the individual's fault.
Personally, I really don't care whether the soldier beside me in operations met the necessary operational fitness requirements after a program like the RFT or by being keen prior to enrollment and scoring well on (heck, at least meeting) the (hopefully reinstated, one day) recruiting screening fitness requirements. That they are motivated to do their BEST...not "just meet spec"...is what I'd like to see more of. Less words, more action...facta non verba.
It is a pleasure working with those who strive to attain gold on the Cooper test...
G2G
Personally, I really don't care whether the soldier beside me in operations met the necessary operational fitness requirements after a program like the RFT or by being keen prior to enrollment and scoring well on (heck, at least meeting) the (hopefully reinstated, one day) recruiting screening fitness requirements. That they are motivated to do their BEST...not "just meet spec"...is what I'd like to see more of. Less words, more action...facta non verba.
It is a pleasure working with those who strive to attain gold on the Cooper test...
G2G
D
Deleted member 9665
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Gunner98 said:
Yes we can blame society and school system, It has been proven in other country (like sweeden if I remember)
It is a mentality to go out instead of playing Video game or you tube...if you are not minded..then guess what you wont do it. and it is not in Quebec educationnal program that you will find such a thing...with 2 period of 75 minutes on a 36 period schedule...and no big motivation...It wont happen.
Take an other example...Im presently CIC officer...we offer to our 67 cadets listed...a evening of sports every week...guess how many is actually attending it on a regular basis... 5 yes 5 cadets...1 officer (me) and our sports trainer.
If you need more example...ill give you other...
Society and school program can be blame of the non-sport orientation of our youth.
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mysteriousmind said:
No, it goes back to personal responsibility and when it comes to youth, the parents. I do not allow my children to sit and play video games or watch TV all day while shovelling bon bons in their yaps. Just as I wasn't allowed. Growing up I played a lot of sports (even down to just playing road hockey with the neighborhood kids) that had NOTHING to do with school. If you aren't into getting into shape, if not for the military, but for your own health, that is ones own problem. Not mine, not the schools and not societies.
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Sig_Des said:
I wasn't going to get into this, but I will.
First, Sig_Des, I don't think you fully understood what I meant when I said you exemplified my post. What I was referring to was the comment about a "fat-camp/free personal fitness program"...it's childish. Second, your analogy of the university is logically flawed - it bears no similarity to what we're discussing.
I don't know what you mean by "And guess what...we'll be in the system when you get in". Sounds like a threat to me. I hope not.
I'm 33 years old. This past year I decided to take paternity leave to raise my newborn son. My wife works. I don't know if you have children, I could care less. However, if you don't know what raising children is about, then let me inform you - If you think it's walking around Chapters with a baby strapped to your back reading magazines, with loads of free time, or a casual day at the gym doing cardio while the baby rolls around the floor, you're mistaken.
For the past 6 years I know that I was one of the more "fit" gym members in our community. I'm strong in comparison to many. I also scuba dive, jog/run, hike, snowshoe, cross-country cycle, and a multitude of other activities. I know I'm not in CF shape right now, nor can I scrounge the time required to get into that shape while still assuming responsibility of raising a family and providing a living. However, I look forward to testing myself, getting back into shape, and giving to my country in nameless ways. If I have to partake in the "fat-camp" to achieve this goal, then so be it...at least I'll try (and succeed).
Some people enter the forces with university degrees...I'll be one of them. The CF has to take a margin of recruits and teach them how to properly write a grammatically correct sentence. Tell me, should they be ridiculed because of this? Should I say they should earn a degree or learn proper grammar before applying? No. It will be taught them when they enroll. It shows the tenacity of an individual to want to better themselves, both physically and mentally, when they put the ink to the paper in applying to the CF, IMHO. Perhaps a recruit can't write a proper sentence, but he/she may have a talent much more important to offer their country.
I apologize for the rant, everyone. A nerve was hit, and this is my response to it. I just hope that someone can appreciate where I'm coming from.
D
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beach_bum said:
Come to think of it I must retract my self partly. No we cannot blame entirely Schools or society...We can blame parents much more. Beach_bum Is right. But It has a certain effectiveness to the point of were there those rules a respected outside the house.
DeltaWhiskey said:
DW - you are losing us with your logic. What does writing a sentence, earning a degree and being physically fit have in common, other than your ramblings on this page. What are you basing the writing skills comment on? Do you know what is involved in the recruitment process? When do you think the CF has time to teach people to "write a grammatically correct sentence"? Congratulations on being a father. Welcome to the real world - many here are mothers and fathers and we try set the example for our children - by knowing who your audience is and to think before we speak or write in a public forum.
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Gunner98 said:
Gunner98, re-read my post, and I'm certain that the claritiy of it will come to you. Physical and mental betterment is equally achievable through the CF. If this were not the case, there would be little need for additional PT and classroom/field learning (i.e. Basic Training)...no? Some enter in need of physical tuning. Others may require upgrading (for lack of a better term) in a different capacity. That's it. That's all I meant. Quite simple, really.
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I'm one of those parents who took a long, cold look at the physical training classes in my daughter's school and found them lacking in a consistent application of training up to a standard of fitness and then being able to apply that fitness to a particular sport and skill set. To counter the hit and miss (sorry HOM) of a maintaining a standard of fitness, we enrolled her in several sports and physical training opportunities that helped her maintain a level of fitness such as rowing, volleyball, three day eventing, dressage and gym class 2x a week. She was also encouraged to pursue school sports as well as the obligatory 4 weeks in the bush, hunting with her grandfather and me. Even with all that, when she joined the navy, she still had to work extra hard at PT to exceed the physical fitness standard necessary to do her job.
When she had her baby last year, she returned to her ship six weeks after the birth and managed to just barely make the PT test. Had she not been in top shape prior to her pregnancy, she would have failed and been put on remedial PT or been told to stay on mat leave a while longer.
I'm having a hard time with the entire RFT implementation as many on here are also having although I do have some small concession that one should not throw the baby out with the bath water if a candidate shows a likelihood to succeed and progress through the training if given extra time to "train up" from a basic level of fitness. I do however have, a hard time conceding that the CF should be training up recruits and Ocdts from an unfit state. (can someone confirm that there is still the PT component to enrollment where you are expected to be able to do a certain amount of PT prior to BMQ? - you know the one where you had to be able to do so many situps and run a mile in so much time etc - Or has that gone the way of the dodo bird?)
Now, just prior to my retirement, I had been dealing with a nasty case of cancer in my leg and had undergone various surgical procedures and chemotherapies to fix the problem. Even after all of that, I still could score level 6 on my beep test but felt that I was at a physical plateau and in all likelihood never be able to do better (or even perhaps maintain that level) so it was time to pull the pin before I lost the means to be considered an equal with my peers. I cringed at the thought of being a medical deadweight. So, I do tend to have a hard time when someone who is in training to be a member of the CF can't get the PT part or is a member and fails their PT, being sympathetic to their plight. My stock answer has always been fish or cut bait. The responsibility to be physically fit lies with each member and in what they put in their mouths, and does not lie with school boards, parents, psps or anyone else. If you don't do the work prior to joining, during your membership, you can not blame anyone but yourself. My docs did tell me that if I been weaker or in a poorer physical state, I would have lost my leg to the infections that set in after surgery and certainly would have succumbed to the MRSA bug that got me while in recovery. It's been 3 years now, and I still go to the gym 4 times a week and I walk 10 km every day (although I got smart and trained my dog to carry the knapsack).
When she had her baby last year, she returned to her ship six weeks after the birth and managed to just barely make the PT test. Had she not been in top shape prior to her pregnancy, she would have failed and been put on remedial PT or been told to stay on mat leave a while longer.
I'm having a hard time with the entire RFT implementation as many on here are also having although I do have some small concession that one should not throw the baby out with the bath water if a candidate shows a likelihood to succeed and progress through the training if given extra time to "train up" from a basic level of fitness. I do however have, a hard time conceding that the CF should be training up recruits and Ocdts from an unfit state. (can someone confirm that there is still the PT component to enrollment where you are expected to be able to do a certain amount of PT prior to BMQ? - you know the one where you had to be able to do so many situps and run a mile in so much time etc - Or has that gone the way of the dodo bird?)
Now, just prior to my retirement, I had been dealing with a nasty case of cancer in my leg and had undergone various surgical procedures and chemotherapies to fix the problem. Even after all of that, I still could score level 6 on my beep test but felt that I was at a physical plateau and in all likelihood never be able to do better (or even perhaps maintain that level) so it was time to pull the pin before I lost the means to be considered an equal with my peers. I cringed at the thought of being a medical deadweight. So, I do tend to have a hard time when someone who is in training to be a member of the CF can't get the PT part or is a member and fails their PT, being sympathetic to their plight. My stock answer has always been fish or cut bait. The responsibility to be physically fit lies with each member and in what they put in their mouths, and does not lie with school boards, parents, psps or anyone else. If you don't do the work prior to joining, during your membership, you can not blame anyone but yourself. My docs did tell me that if I been weaker or in a poorer physical state, I would have lost my leg to the infections that set in after surgery and certainly would have succumbed to the MRSA bug that got me while in recovery. It's been 3 years now, and I still go to the gym 4 times a week and I walk 10 km every day (although I got smart and trained my dog to carry the knapsack).
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Before I reply, I want to clarify for you DW, that I'm not attacking your opinions, but stating mine
You're stating that my opinions are synonymous with those of all CF members and members on this board. Attacking something that's new or that we don't understand. In my opinion, RFT is nothing more than a fat-camp/free personal fitness program at the cost of the government to bring people up to the BASIC standard. The Standard that CF Members (correction: CF APPLICANTS) previous to this had to reach on their own. You need a common starting ground to be able to start your Basic training, which includes physical training. IMO, it is NOT the responsibility of the CF to bring you up to this MINIMUM ENTRANCE REQUIREMENT.
Really? Fine, let's go to the lowest common denominator. You need a minimum of Grade 10 to enter the CF..that is the MINIMUM. I don't think it's the responsibility of the CF to take those who failed grade ten, and have them go through grade 10 at St-Jean before they join a platoon. To me, RFT is the same thing.
This isn't a threat, but a statement that there are many you will work for in the CF. After you complete your training, and pass a career course, there are many who won't hold your hand if you are unable to perform to the standard required. I don't expect to have to teach basics over to someone who should have learned it on their own courses.
Age is no matter. When I did my basic training, we had a 52 year old in my platoon. Guess what, he met (actually exceeded) the minimum standards on his own, during the recruiting process. Did this of his own accord. An example of self-motivation.
No I do not have any children, wether you care or not. But I HAVE assisted in the raising of children. I am aware that parenting is a full time job, and my hats off to anyone who does it. What does that have to do with PT standards? There are many in the forces who have multiple children. They pass the standards.
Congrats on being in good shape. You did this of your own accord, I assume? Your employer didn't pay for you to get a personal trainer or nutritionist, I assume? I also applaud your desire to serve your country. Remember that life in the CF will not only test you, but also your family. You say that you don't have time to get in shape while also having the responsibility of raising a family. Think of how your family will be tested when you are away for long periods of time, or up late in the night, bringing work home. All at the same time that you are expected to maintain a standard.
Take it from someone who's BEEN through the training system. I was never taught by the CF to write a grammatically correct sentence. I was taught how to write the format of military documents. I was taught how to write orders. Not grammar. This would be where the grade 10 education requirement comes in, in addition to the CFAT.
You're right, not everyone can write a proper sentence. This is where the CFAT aids in choosing what trades you qualify for, or have the ability of performing in.
I'd say that even MORE of an individuals tenacity can be shown when they decide to apply themselves to at least MEETING the minimum standards on their own, not expecting to be led by the nose by the CF, on the CFs buck.
Just this one, from me. I reacted to a post by you, trying to use my OPINION to quantify your statement. This struck one of MY nerves. Once you have been through the process, I am perfectly willing to calmly discuss pros and cons, and difference in opinions. Until then, I would suggest you sit back and think about what some here put out, mainly people who A) Have gone through the training system and those who B) HAVE taught.
I come to you as someone who has done both.
My opinion stands. I don't believe in the RFT program. I don't think it's our responsibility. I will not attack the members, as I'm sure many will be outstanding soldiers. It is not up to me wether we have it or not. But once again, IMO, I think these soldiers would be even MORE outstanding if they chose to bring themselves up to pt standards before they got in.
DeltaWhiskey said:
You're stating that my opinions are synonymous with those of all CF members and members on this board. Attacking something that's new or that we don't understand. In my opinion, RFT is nothing more than a fat-camp/free personal fitness program at the cost of the government to bring people up to the BASIC standard. The Standard that CF Members (correction: CF APPLICANTS) previous to this had to reach on their own. You need a common starting ground to be able to start your Basic training, which includes physical training. IMO, it is NOT the responsibility of the CF to bring you up to this MINIMUM ENTRANCE REQUIREMENT.
Really? Fine, let's go to the lowest common denominator. You need a minimum of Grade 10 to enter the CF..that is the MINIMUM. I don't think it's the responsibility of the CF to take those who failed grade ten, and have them go through grade 10 at St-Jean before they join a platoon. To me, RFT is the same thing.
This isn't a threat, but a statement that there are many you will work for in the CF. After you complete your training, and pass a career course, there are many who won't hold your hand if you are unable to perform to the standard required. I don't expect to have to teach basics over to someone who should have learned it on their own courses.
Age is no matter. When I did my basic training, we had a 52 year old in my platoon. Guess what, he met (actually exceeded) the minimum standards on his own, during the recruiting process. Did this of his own accord. An example of self-motivation.
No I do not have any children, wether you care or not. But I HAVE assisted in the raising of children. I am aware that parenting is a full time job, and my hats off to anyone who does it. What does that have to do with PT standards? There are many in the forces who have multiple children. They pass the standards.
Congrats on being in good shape. You did this of your own accord, I assume? Your employer didn't pay for you to get a personal trainer or nutritionist, I assume? I also applaud your desire to serve your country. Remember that life in the CF will not only test you, but also your family. You say that you don't have time to get in shape while also having the responsibility of raising a family. Think of how your family will be tested when you are away for long periods of time, or up late in the night, bringing work home. All at the same time that you are expected to maintain a standard.
Take it from someone who's BEEN through the training system. I was never taught by the CF to write a grammatically correct sentence. I was taught how to write the format of military documents. I was taught how to write orders. Not grammar. This would be where the grade 10 education requirement comes in, in addition to the CFAT.
You're right, not everyone can write a proper sentence. This is where the CFAT aids in choosing what trades you qualify for, or have the ability of performing in.
I'd say that even MORE of an individuals tenacity can be shown when they decide to apply themselves to at least MEETING the minimum standards on their own, not expecting to be led by the nose by the CF, on the CFs buck.
Just this one, from me. I reacted to a post by you, trying to use my OPINION to quantify your statement. This struck one of MY nerves. Once you have been through the process, I am perfectly willing to calmly discuss pros and cons, and difference in opinions. Until then, I would suggest you sit back and think about what some here put out, mainly people who A) Have gone through the training system and those who B) HAVE taught.
I come to you as someone who has done both.
My opinion stands. I don't believe in the RFT program. I don't think it's our responsibility. I will not attack the members, as I'm sure many will be outstanding soldiers. It is not up to me wether we have it or not. But once again, IMO, I think these soldiers would be even MORE outstanding if they chose to bring themselves up to pt standards before they got in.
DeltaWhiskey said:
Nope, I've read it several times, it must be so simple that I still don't see it, sorry DW.
Fact: Applicants must meet a minimum aptitude level during the requirement process. Fact: Recruits/OCdts will be required to meet the minimum fitness standard. Upgrading is plentiful in the CF, once you have met the minimum enrollment standards.
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Sig_Des,
Well, I don't think this is going to get far. We could stay here all night arguing back and forth, as it were.
I can see exactly where you are coming from on not wanting the RFT program to become open flood gates letting in every person who's definitely not capable of doing the job - now or ever. I agree with that. Some recruits will use that as a ticket to have it handed to them - that's not what I'm about.
Now my perspective: I feel that the RFT program could quite possibly benefit people like me who, a very short while ago, were in decent condition, but have lagged in that physical state in recent time.
BTW, I never intended to use my age or having children as an excuse, but merely as part of a detailed explanation.
Also, it's hard to nail back and forth our points via the internet. It would be much easier to speak them freely from mouth where words don't get minced (so easily, that is). I'm certain I didn't state that your opinions are synonymous with those of the CF or of other board members, though. But, I still wince when you use "fat-camp"...it's most likely not accurate, I'm sure you'll agree.
Anyway, you can rest assured that you won't need to "hold my hand", as you say. If I thought I couldn't hack something I'd honourably bow out or try my best to beat it...preferably the latter.
Well, I don't think this is going to get far. We could stay here all night arguing back and forth, as it were.
I can see exactly where you are coming from on not wanting the RFT program to become open flood gates letting in every person who's definitely not capable of doing the job - now or ever. I agree with that. Some recruits will use that as a ticket to have it handed to them - that's not what I'm about.
Now my perspective: I feel that the RFT program could quite possibly benefit people like me who, a very short while ago, were in decent condition, but have lagged in that physical state in recent time.
BTW, I never intended to use my age or having children as an excuse, but merely as part of a detailed explanation.
Also, it's hard to nail back and forth our points via the internet. It would be much easier to speak them freely from mouth where words don't get minced (so easily, that is). I'm certain I didn't state that your opinions are synonymous with those of the CF or of other board members, though. But, I still wince when you use "fat-camp"...it's most likely not accurate, I'm sure you'll agree.
Anyway, you can rest assured that you won't need to "hold my hand", as you say. If I thought I couldn't hack something I'd honourably bow out or try my best to beat it...preferably the latter.
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