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Iran Super Thread- Merged

At this point in discussing an attack on Iran, I think it would be refreshing to remember where terrorists actually come from.

While there are different forms of terrorist around the world, from IRA to home grown crazies, the ones that are constantly being touted in the news and in other propaganda, are "radical muslim terrorists" from the Middle East.

The hijackers of 9-11 imfamy were from Saudi Arabia primarily, a country "friendly" with the US admin and one that has suffered no ill consequences despite its production of the actual culprits. Afghanistan we can all agree also hosts terrorists directly implicated in that attack. The other "terrorists" we hear about seem to have bloomed spontaneously after their country, Iraq, was invaded by US forces and occupied. So we can argue about whether they are terrorists or "freedom fighters". They seem to have few political ideas other than ousting the US occupation force- so I would not brand them as terrorists hell-bent on harming the West.

Iran, on the other hand, is a democratic nation (yes there is a supreme ayatollah in there) and not generally known for harboring terrorists. They are, however, branded by the current US administration as being the "central bank" of terrorism without much in the way of evidence. The central case for attacking Iran from a US perspective, is that they fund and support terrorists in Iraq. Do they support the fighters in Iraq trying to remove the US force there? Probably, since they are predominantly Shiite and wish to form alliances for their own security within an unstable Iraq. Evidence for this is still weak at best. Even assuming this is the case, does that give the US the right to bomb that Country or its nuclear facilities, further de-stabilizing the ME? Let's face it, Iran has a much larger stake in Iraq's well being than the US or any other foreign nation. They live right next door, and if anything, the West should be negotiatiing with Iran so that they can support the efforts to create stability.

Iran seems to have been arbitrarily branded a "state sponsor of terrorism" by a current US admin for political ends. We all heard the propaganda coming from the Bush Admins cohorts prior to the, more or less, unilateral attack on Iraq. So why trust that their "intelligence" and instincts are right in this case? They've made so many other blunders (lies?) that I believe any attack on Iran should wait for a new admin and a much stronger case before the world at large can consider condoning it.

Is Iran a sponsor of terror? There's no proof, only hearsay from the CFR and other far right "think tanks" in the US. As such there should be no attack, unless Iran proves itself in some way an aggressor, which they have yet to do. Common sense tells us that until a person, or a government proves themselves guilty of some offense, that there should be no punishment.
 
Take the time to buy and read a book called "Chechen Jihad" by Yossef Bodasnky. It might open your eye's a bit about Irans involvement in the jihadist holy war against Russia and the west...then again maybe they will just stay blinkered.
 
TheSaint said:
Is Iran a sponsor of terror? There's no proof, only hearsay from the CFR and other far right "think tanks" in the US. As such there should be no attack, unless Iran proves itself in some way an aggressor, which they have yet to do. Common sense tells us that until a person, or a government proves themselves guilty of some offense, that there should be no punishment.

Dear Mr Saint,

In your own words, we or should I say I, would like your personal definition of "sponsor", as you have me confused.

So, please Sir, first and foremost, answer the question above.

For during my time in Iraq, not only were there Iranian supplied things such as the RPG 25 (please google this if you would like to - thanks) with its unique tandem warheads, but also the manufacturing of Iranian EFPs, and even supplying small arms, ammo, mortars and other man packed weapons and related gizmos, even including "volunteer" Iranian sheite men for the JAM militias, right down to Hiapha Street in Baghdad City, and elsewhere in the country.

How do I know this, well due to OPSEC I can't tell you, but I will say the evidence was correct and overwhelming there, not only in the equipment ammo and weapons supplied, but left behind by their KIAs.

So, in my defination, Iran has been supplying and sponsoring terrorism against Coalition Forces (paying for and procuring) for many years, and will continue to do so (even in other regions), the next scale (if they are allowed to continue in their research that is) being nuclear technology and other nasty stuff which any dangerous or radical regime of any religion should never be allowed to have.

Iranian sponsored terrorism has killed, yes ended the life of many Coaltion Force members. In my view, we are already at war (unofficially of course) with Iran already

Your name too, along with mine and other infidels is in their list of hate. Don't think we, the west, including dear ole Canada are immune, for there are terrorists plotting above the 49th parrallel, right now, they just have not been caught yet.

As for the definition of sponsor, here is what the dictionary says. Sponsor: "a person or agency that undertakes certain responsibilities in connection with some other person or some group or activity, as in being a proponent, endorser, advisor, underwriter, surety, etc." Methinks that has it covered.

Unfortunatly Sir, you have chosen not to fill out your profile, leaving it blank, so I really have no idea of your experience and/or credentials, nor do I undertand your level of competence/experience of the real world, shy of MSM outlets, and publications of a nature not common to the support of the global fight against terrorism. Please feel free to google or wiki any information I have set forth in this post to enlighten and broaden your knowledge.

If you could be so kind and polite as to fill out your profile to educate us on you (allbeit brief), that way what you say will have a bit of 'backbone' (no disrepect intended using this word - if so I humbly appologise) in regards to the quality and assurance of any future posts you may decide to put forth to us. This will help enlighten us, also please feel free to take the time to read my profile and others on here too, that we hopefully, yes you Sir, can have a better understanding of just who we are. Everyone benifits  :salute: .

Sir, I thankyou for your time in reading my post.


Warm regards from a rainy dismal winter's day here in the tropics of Australia,

Keep smiling,

OWDU
 
Gentlemen, please: you are letting facts and information get in the way of the argument!

No one and nothing will convince these people until there is that blinding flash and mushroom cloud; then of course it will suddenly be all be the fault of the United States... ::)
 
Thucydides,

Let them carry on.  I will be fascinated to see how the The Saint responds to Overwatch Downunder.  I'm guessing that absent facts an ad hominem is in order.  But how do you attack a post like that?

Nicely argued OD.
 
As a Moderator, I am still waiting for "TheSaint" to reply to the questions put to him/her by two Moderators of this site.

TheSaint has one last post to make to clarify these questions, or it is straight up the ladder and out the Ramp.


TheSaint

Ignoring those questions, does not make them go away.
 
OK Saint, I see you were Last Active:  Today at 14:42:08. I am assuming that you had a peek at this thread and it is my suspicion that you are shying away from it in order to avoid the questions put to you. We'll be keeping an eye on your activity here and you can consider yourself on the clock, pony up some answers or be banned, simple.
 
This is no way an attempt to start a brawl.

I know people's tempers sometimes flare when others take the other side on matters.  This is compacted when that persons opinions and statements are backed by zero apparent knowledge/evidence or reason.  Which appears to be the case here.  My only question is, does it really matter if we come to a unanimous opinion on a war with Iran.  In the end it will some down to one of two things.  The CF gets ordered to go and they do, or they don't.  Whether we all in here decide if its imminent or not really won't change the future outcomes, if any. 

So I just wanted to say to TheSaint, I understand where your coming from.  And I think that all that the people above are asking for is a little bit of clarification.  They're not trying to start a fight, they just want you to explain your position.  Paragraph 1 is just there to remind you how irrelevant it is, and reenforce the point that it appears we're just asking out of curiosity.  I put off reading this thread for awhile, alas its too interesting, and I'm interested in the debate.

Cheers, Kyle
 
Overwatch Downunder said:
Dear Mr Saint,

In your own words, we or should I say I, would like your personal definition of "sponsor", as you have me confused.

So, please Sir, first and foremost, answer the question above.

For during my time in Iraq, not only were there Iranian supplied things such as the RPG 25 (please google this if you would like to - thanks) with its unique tandem warheads, but also the manufacturing of Iranian EFPs, and even supplying small arms, ammo, mortars and other man packed weapons and related gizmos, even including "volunteer" Iranian sheite men for the JAM militias, right down to Hiapha Street in Baghdad City, and elsewhere in the country.

How do I know this, well due to OPSEC I can't tell you, but I will say the evidence was correct and overwhelming there, not only in the equipment ammo and weapons supplied, but left behind by their KIAs.

So, in my defination, Iran has been supplying and sponsoring terrorism against Coalition Forces (paying for and procuring) for many years, and will continue to do so (even in other regions), the next scale (if they are allowed to continue in their research that is) being nuclear technology and other nasty stuff which any dangerous or radical regime of any religion should never be allowed to have.

Iranian sponsored terrorism has killed, yes ended the life of many Coaltion Force members. In my view, we are already at war (unofficially of course) with Iran already

Your name too, along with mine and other infidels is in their list of hate. Don't think we, the west, including dear ole Canada are immune, for there are terrorists plotting above the 49th parrallel, right now, they just have not been caught yet.

As for the definition of sponsor, here is what the dictionary says. Sponsor: "a person or agency that undertakes certain responsibilities in connection with some other person or some group or activity, as in being a proponent, endorser, advisor, underwriter, surety, etc." Methinks that has it covered.

Unfortunatly Sir, you have chosen not to fill out your profile, leaving it blank, so I really have no idea of your experience and/or credentials, nor do I undertand your level of competence/experience of the real world, shy of MSM outlets, and publications of a nature not common to the support of the global fight against terrorism. Please feel free to google or wiki any information I have set forth in this post to enlighten and broaden your knowledge.

If you could be so kind and polite as to fill out your profile to educate us on you (allbeit brief), that way what you say will have a bit of 'backbone' (no disrepect intended using this word - if so I humbly appologise) in regards to the quality and assurance of any future posts you may decide to put forth to us. This will help enlighten us, also please feel free to take the time to read my profile and others on here too, that we hopefully, yes you Sir, can have a better understanding of just who we are. Everyone benifits  :salute: .

Sir, I thankyou for your time in reading my post.


Warm regards from a rainy dismal winter's day here in the tropics of Australia,

Keep smiling,

OWDU

Sure. You asked for my personal definition of "sponsor" and I'm assuming you mean my definition of "sponsor of terrorism" since, by itself, sponsor just means to support (by whatever means). I understand you're taking as fact that Iran is a sponsor of terrorism whereas that is the main point I would debate. This is a pretty sticky question and I think you're smart enough to know that. Any definition is going to be relative to the case in question. As you should have noted in my last post, I don't consider what the Iranians are doing, or potentially doing in Iraq, terrorism. It may be covert operations, or some kind of espionage, but not terrorism. Terrorism means what it says- to TERRORIZE CIVILIANS for political ends. I don't think that's what the Iranians MIGHT be doing. It is highly unfortunate that any troops are being killed or injured by Iranian or other weaponry, if that is in fact the case; and you seem to be implying you have some secret knowledge in that area, so I won't argue the point. If, however, Iran is supplying weapons to Iraq they are sponsoring an "insurrection" and not "terrorism" by its definition. Also, as my previous post pointed out the Iranians have very personal reasons for doing so, since they are the ones that must live closest to the outcome.  You see I have already suggested that they could be supplying the laundry list of weapons you mentioned- it is a real possibility. I'm not sure why you chose to make this one item the issue, unless of course, it was for the emotive value of talking about troops killed or injured. Shall I bring up the number of troops killed worldwide by US weoponry? That would be quite a list indeed.

You do bring up the deaths of coalition forces in Iraq though. You seem to forget that Canada has chosen to stay out of said war and, therefore, while you include us in your "coalition" by default, we are to my knowledge only in Afghanistan, which we know was a sponsor of REAL terrorism against CIVILIANS. We were never a part of the coalition of the willing, as our surprisingly (considering the personages) forsighted leaders elected to keep us out of a war that was in no way connected to the acts of 9-11 and which they must have predicted would be long, costly and with little upside.

I also see from your condescending response to mine that you think quote: "MSM outlets, and publications of a nature not common to the support of the global fight against terrorism" are not valid sources. You seem to be advocating a selective list of ideas that are in perfect concord to your own ones, rather than taking a more balanced approach. I was always taught in University to read between the lines, and do my own thinking, rather than have the thoughts and opinions of other individuals or groups imposed upon me. Critical thinking I believe it's called. My view is that it's better to look at both sides of any story, regardless of where those ideas originate, or who espouses them, in order to arrive at a more balanced, and more effective conclusion.  I can only hope that in between watching FOX News and downloading the arguments of those above you to your mental hard drive, that you take a moment to consider alternative views- just once in a while.

As for my credentials, I have none other than that I can read and listen, and come to my own conclusions. Not being predisposed to acts of terror and having no experience in government, I can't claim any insider dealings with the individuals involved- these being two of the three parties in your "global war on terror". I am sadly of that humble third party; a civilian who watches the news and reads books from time to time and who sometimes gets caught in the crossfire.

Anyways, please remember while using the fear word "terrorism" that lightening kills more people than such acts in North America- so I will still be sleeping tight regardless.

I thank you, Sir, for considering my differing opinions.
 
TheSaint said:
Sure. You asked for my personal definition of "sponsor" and I'm assuming you mean my definition of "sponsor of terrorism" since, by itself, sponsor just means to support (by whatever means). I understand you're taking as fact that Iran is a sponsor of terrorism whereas that is the main point I would debate. This is a pretty sticky question and I think you're smart enough to know that. Any definition is going to be relative to the case in question. As you should have noted in my last post, I don't consider what the Iranians are doing, or potentially doing in Iraq, terrorism. It may be covert operations, or some kind of espionage, but not terrorism. Terrorism means what it says- to TERRORIZE CIVILIANS for political ends. I don't think that's what the Iranians MIGHT be doing. It is highly unfortunate that any troops are being killed or injured by Iranian or other weaponry, if that is in fact the case; and you seem to be implying you have some secret knowledge in that area, so I won't argue the point. If, however, Iran is supplying weapons to Iraq they are sponsoring an "insurrection" and not "terrorism" by its definition. Also, as my previous post pointed out the Iranians have very personal reasons for doing so, since they are the ones that must live closest to the outcome.  You see I have already suggested that they could be supplying the laundry list of weapons you mentioned- it is a real possibility. I'm not sure why you chose to make this one item the issue, unless of course, it was for the emotive value of talking about troops killed or injured. Shall I bring up the number of troops killed worldwide by US weoponry? That would be quite a list indeed.

You don't consider Iranian-sponsored groups deliberately killing civilians to be terrorists?

TheSaint said:
You do bring up the deaths of coalition forces in Iraq though. You seem to forget that Canada has chosen to stay out of said war and, therefore, while you include us in your "coalition" by default, we are to my knowledge only in Afghanistan, which we know was a sponsor of REAL terrorism against CIVILIANS. We were never a part of the coalition of the willing, as our surprisingly (considering the personages) forsighted leaders elected to keep us out of a war that was in no way connected to the acts of 9-11 and which they must have predicted would be long, costly and with little upside.

What about Iranian weapons in Afghanistan?

TheSaint said:
I also see from your condescending response to mine that you think quote: "MSM outlets, and publications of a nature not common to the support of the global fight against terrorism" are not valid sources. You seem to be advocating a selective list of ideas that are in perfect concord to your own ones, rather than taking a more balanced approach. I was always taught in University to read between the lines, and do my own thinking, rather than have the thoughts and opinions of other individuals or groups imposed upon me. Critical thinking I believe it's called. My view is that it's better to look at both sides of any story, regardless of where those ideas originate, or who espouses them, in order to arrive at a more balanced, and more effective conclusion.  I can only hope that in between watching FOX News and downloading the arguments of those above you to your mental hard drive, that you take a moment to consider alternative views- just once in a while.

A good idea and a bad idea do not add up to "balanced", they add up to "skewed towards madness".

TheSaint said:
Anyways, please remember while using the fear word "terrorism" that lightening kills more people than such acts in North America- so I will still be sleeping tight regardless.

I see. It's only "Terrorism" if it happens in North America. Nice.
 
I think what The Saint doesn't get, is that, for you guys in uniform, bad guys is bad guys. Insurgent, insurectionist, terrorist, so much semantic fudge.  I'm still trying to wrap my head around OWDUs new writing style. ;D  He makes the primary point.

Real life experience trumps "liberal values" everytime.

I'm no huge fan of broadening the war on terror, but I understand and acknowledge that seems to be the way were headed.  Iran and it's government is aware of the possibilty of attack ( acutely ), yet they persist in the activities that put them in the crosshairs. Why would they do that?  The simplest answer is that they don't think they can lose.  I think that the truth is that Iran's strategic goal is not compatible with western interests.  Somehow that WILL be resolved.

 
No. Saint doesn't get questions asked of him. Typical of a troll and so now he'll be banned and can bring it up to Mike Bobbitt if he feels wronged by my actions. Maybe he'll answer my questions to the boss.

Buh-bye.
 
Dear Mr Saint,

Thankyou for your opinion.

You should still be able to read this.

Although you have unfortuantly been banned, durng my time in Baghdad there was almost 17,000 citizens killed in that period. Thats almost 17,000 Baghdad citizens killed by direct individual murder, mass bombings, snipers, attacks, etc, and all at the hands of other citizens, utilising terror. Far from covert. This is not a war game, its real people, dying daily, and they still are.  The 7 months after we left, it got worse, about 36,000 citizens killed, again in Baghdad alone. These numbers are only the reported cases, much more goes on unreported.

You would be suprised the amount of IEDs, IDF, and attacks committed in the time period I was there, just in Baghdad alone, its in the thousands. I heard it all the time, felt the concusions, seen the mushroom clouds, knowing then that many, many innocent pople at a market, getting food just to survive now all had interchangeable parts.

I do not think I need to post the dictionary definition of terrorism, do I.

To say that there is no terrorism in Iraq is the same as saying babies come from cabbage patches. You'll even find terrorism on every school playground, in the form of bullying.

As much as you have an opinion which is politically motivated, if you just would have answered the questions put forth, you would still be here. My opinion is based on my experience on the ground in Iraq, and knowing what damage radical islam can do, even in our own region the hate for our way of life is present.

I never mentioned Canada in this fight, but we as the west are in it, and Canada is fighting the same people, just in a different region. The fight is universal, and it will never end for the long haul. Remember, it is a global war, not just in Iraq, and Afghanistan. Coalition Force countries in Iraq number into the dozens, some being Georgia, some South American states, even Japanese, and European nations are invloved. I personally seen these troops, traded patches and conversation, so they are there, its not just US, UK and Australians there.

Good luck in your future endeavours.

Maybe you will be permitted to this site again? just maintain the mininum standard asked, thats not too much of a task is it?

Regards,

OWDU 
 
Dr Pournelle brings up an interesting point. Free exchange of information is the true killer of all authoritarian systems (the rise of the printing press marked the decline of the Feudal system and the absolute power of the Catholic Church over Christendom). We can also see the mirror in China's desparate attempt to filter contenet throgh the "Great Firewall of China", and of course one of the goals of the Jihadis and the Iranian government is to insulate the "people" from outside (i.e. Western) influences.

http://www.jerrypournelle.com/view/2008/Q3/view526.html#Tuesday

I am very late on getting the July column done, so that will take first priority. There were several essays and lively discussions over the weekend;  see last week's View. One matter settled was the notion of an open Forum here. It won't happen. I don't believe that it would add to the quality of reader experience (ye gods, am I learning the Microsoft patois?) and in any event would eat a lot of my time for what I believe would not be a lot of good.

One problem with day books -- I have a pretty good claim to have begun the practice of an open log book way back in BIX days -- is that if one isn't careful, the discussions tend to be what a vocal bloc of readers want, and not what the principal of the site wants to talk about. If I have anything worth subscribing for, it is enough experience to recognize topics that don't get a great deal of play elsewhere but which I think important for understanding either the screwy world we live in, or technology, or both. Recall that Richard Feynman wanted me to teach a Cal Tech senior seminar on "Technology and Civilization." I always regretted that the Cal Tech president rejected the notion largely because I was identified with "Star Wars", because I really looked forward to conducting those discussion. In any event, if there is a common theme to what goes on here, that's probably the subject. Technology brings us potentials for both good and evil, and Moore's Law makes it certain that technology will flow to us at an ever expanding rate: can we build social and political institutions that can deal with the new technologies?

Back about 1982 I made a prediction: that by the end of the Century, everyone in Western Civilization would be able to get the answer to any question that has an answer. Facts, dates, who said what, how to build gadgets, how to do things -- all that available to anyone. Note that I said "Western Civilization" thus excluding the Iron Curtain countries (some of you may remember when there were 26,000 nuclear warheads aimed at the United States, and young officers of both the U.S. and U.S.S.R. sat in silos with the keys to Armageddon).

About 1986 I realized that the USSR as a totalitarian society was doomed: the only way a large nation could maintain military power and control over its citizens was to allow small computers to become ubiquitous -- but that meant free exchange of ideas within that society as well as with outsiders, and that would end the state monopoly on information. Arthur Koestler had observed that a sufficient condition for the end of totalitarian regimes was the free exchange of ideas; small computers made that free exchange inevitable.

These were the ideas I wanted to discuss in my seminars, but alas it was not to be.

And enough rambling. I have to get the column in shape before dawn tomorrow.

Of course today the PC has been suplimented by the cell phone/iPod/Blackberry. Perhaps what we really need to do is flood the world with millions of cheap Blackberry knock offs, but ensure the browsers are programmed by "us". A certain amount of content filtering (no jihadi sites, for example) and setting the home page for the "Web Free [insert name of place]" news and information page would probably shatter the authoratarian governments and break the appeal of radical Islam faster than anything else. The only countermeasure would be to shut down all information traffic in the area and retreat to a North Korea like existance. Even defensively reserving bandwidth for the local elite is problematic; as human beings they will also suffer from temptation and might work against the regime.
 
  I thought that I would post this here I hope that its the right spot . Its about missile test from Iran apparently the new missile has a range of 2000km .



http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080709/iran_missiles_080709/20080709?hub=TopStories
 
Israel has a first strike policy. Being a small country Israel cannot afford to allow an enemy to strike first.The old adage the best defense is a good offense suits Israel to a T. There is no doubt that if Iran has nuclear weapons they will use them so a pre-emptive strike on Iran is a no brainer. The trick is to locate the key sensitive sites and destroy them.

From my perspective the US cannot allow Israel to carry the water for the administration.The USAF/USN is better positioned to strike Iranian targets than Israel. Who would believe that the US had no idea that Israel had mounted a raid on Iran given our domination of the air space in the region. But if such a raid is attempted I believe that the Iranian leadership and security apparatus must also be included in the hope that the population might overthrow the regime.
 
- They won't overthrow the regime.  They will unite behind it.  The greatest unifier in Iran would be foriegn airstrikes.
 
No WMD's in Iraq ?

GuessWhatsinhere.jpg


I BEG TO DIFFER.


Iran is an enemy - and it must be dealt with.
 
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