Islam and Western Society

[Jed]

Did I state that I cared?  I don't.

So the French passed a Law?  That is their business, along with the enforcement of.  It is very objectionable, though, that in enforcing the Law, the Police had the person remove clothing instead of just the issuance of a Ticket/Fine.

I did not say that Canada was not a multicultural country.  I stated that "Multiculturalism", as in a Government Legislation and Institution, was forced upon us.  That is why I put it in quotes.  Decades before the Liberals under Pierre Elliott Trudeau created this whole "Multiculturalism", we had many different Cultural Festivals, perhaps even more than we do today.  The Ukrainian Festival in Dauphin and Oktoberfest in Kitchener-Waterloo are probably the largest and most known, having been in existence for ages.  Saint Patrick's Day, the Lunar New Year and other celebrations have also been popular well before "Multiculturalism" became a political buzz word.  As such, I feel "Multiculturalism" in the Government mandated sense is a failure and counter productive, sometimes even discriminatory. 

On an aside:  Events that require Government funding, may want to look at why they need that funding.  Perhaps there is no market for what they are offering.

Well said. I too am not against a multicultural Canada. I am against a government Mandated multicultural Canada. It is nothing but politically correct BS that results in the end of groups of society reinforcing their own bias and inherent bigotry and racism.

 

[George Wallace]

You clearly care since you were able to hop up to a keyboard and put your  :2c: in. I care because I think the west is better than what France is doing and what Trump is espousing to our South. Muslims/Mexicans aren't going to destroy our way of life... we're going to destroy it by destroying what we stand for most of all- tolerance, unalienable freedoms, etc. Trump wants to build a castle society, so does France.

Multiculturalism, whether government funded or not, is part of the reality of Canada. Oktoberfest receives government funding (http://www.oktoberfest.ca/News/Celebrating_German_Culture_and_Heritage_in_Waterloo_Region/115, https://www.oktoberfest.ca/News/Kitchener-Waterloo-Oktoberfest-Receives-Ontario-Trillium-Foundation-Funding/111). I assume that you are equally angry to know that governments (Conservative too) have been giving your hard working tax dollars to these welfare burden, lederhosen wearing, kraut eating Germans. Or are they enough like "us" to qualify to be in your Canada?

I think you have a serious problem and as such are trying to put words into my mouth.  Sorry that you want to carry on this way.  I will not comment on your latest attempt.

 

[Bass ackwards]

Why wont these people just assimilate and become Canadians already? My Canada does not include women wearing hats made of flowers and speaking a foreign language! I demand a ban on flower hats

Personally, I find your various "flower hats" a lot less offensive than the sight of some lily-white WASP with 14 pounds of jewellery stuck in her face and a tattoo on her neck. But, to each their own...
Where I have a problem with the "flower hat" is that I can't help but wonder if she's wearing it because she wants to -if so, great! -or is she wearing it because if she doesn't she's going to 'accidentally' fall down the stairs, or maybe wind up in a car at the bottom of a canal.

I like women. And I don't like the thought of them living in fear of anybody, much less their husbands or fathers or brothers. The non-white guy who's willing to do violence to a woman on religious or cultural grounds is no better than the white trailer-trash douchebag who beats his wife because he's a wife beating douchebag. The only difference is that one we're supposed to condemn and the other we're supposed to look away and keep quiet about.

We hear enough about women overseas having fingernails pulled out for the offense of wearing nail polish (to use one example) and we know that honour killings do happen in our neck of the woods. That, to me, constitutes reasonable and probable grounds for concern -at the very least.

If white liberals want to sacrifice these women on the altar of diversity that's really no skin off my nose.
And if white liberals want to jump all over my ass and call me a racist and xenophobe for being concerned -fine. I'll stop caring.
Just don't tell me that multi-culturalism isn't being forced on us. It's sure as hell being forced on every victim of an honour killing that we let happen because we're too afraid of being labelled racist.

My Canada has tons of room for flower hats, burkhas, niquabs, lederhosen, face jewellery and anything else someone wants to wear.
But it's got no room at all for any bastard who wants to force someone to wear something.       

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=Remius]
What about this guy then:  Robert Lewis Dear in 2015.  Pretty recent and has all the hallmarks of a religious inspired terrorist attack. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_Springs_Planned_Parenthood_shooting
[/quote]

[quote author=Bird_Gunner45]]
Ok, so you think McVeigh is too old. How about Dylan Roof (Charleston massacre)?
[/quote]

Robert Lewis Dear seems like a good example of a religious inspired shooter. Dylan Roof's shooting seems more race inspired.

Anything from the last couple months? In France I'm tracking;
-a rabbi in orthodox clothing is stabbed by a man shouting praises to Allah.
-an 84 year old priest having his throat slit
-A mother and her three young daughters are stabbed by a Muslim man during breakfast for not being sufficiently clothed.
-86 dead from the Nice massacre.
-Police officer and his wife stabbed to death by a jihadist

What's my point? France has a very real problem with their citizens being targeted by Islamic extremists.

But, you are right- The Burkha is simply an article of clothing, no different than jeans, t-shirts, or ball caps. The Burkha has never killed anyone since it is an inanimate object. So what are people afraid of? How does outlawing a piece of clothing make France any safer?

Good question. Maybe it's symbolic? Maybe the French see it as a step on the path towards demands that public pools be segregated by men and women liek what's happening in Germany?
Or maybe an increase in instances of their nude bathers being attacked?

Perhaps the social issues facing muslims in France and other parts of the west is what is leading to the radicalization? Most radicals, like the IRA, fight not because they have much, they fight because they have nothing and few options. Continually stripping them of culture and pride only exacerbates the problem. We don't need to "hug it out" with terrorists, but we sure as h@ll need to understand "why" it's happening

Good point.  I think the problem in France and other places in Europe isn't only because of radicalized Islamic attacks but also when cultures won't integrate. (obviously right?) When crowds of Muslim men (and women) harass women and push their religious and cultural beliefs on others ie calling them sluts and giving a shit about how they're dressed.
And of course the opposite, when someone sees a Muslim dressed however they want and harass them calling them terrorists and the unfair harassment Muslims have to deal with.

The thing is when 130 people in your country get murdered in a couple hours in the name of religion X, being harassed by people with the same religion, because of rules/laws of that religion, the harassment probably takes on a more sinister feeling. 

Peoples feelings towards that piece of cultural symbolism isn't a surprise. 

 

[Remius]

Just don't tell me that multi-culturalism isn't being forced on us. It's sure as hell being forced on every victim of an honour killing that we let happen because we're too afraid of being labelled racist.
 

I'm legitimately curious as to what exactly you think is being forced on you or us for that matter.  So we are letting honour killings happen in Canada? I'm pretty sure we have laws against that don't we?   

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

I think you have a serious problem and as such are trying to put words into my mouth.  Sorry that you want to carry on this way.  I will not comment on your latest attempt.

my serious problem is bigotry. Take that as you will.

 

[Lightguns]

Timothy McVeigh was pretty Christian and white and he killed 168 and wounded another 650. The IRA were pretty christian and white and they killed people. Ditto for the Basques.

The problem with the Burqua laws are that they just feed into what the terrorists/ISIS tell disillusioned youth to get them to commit these acts. So by implementing these laws the west simply disenfranchises more young muslims, tells them they aren't a part of their own society, and keeps the circle going.

We, the west, are supposed to be better than this. That's perhaps what's most disappointing. If we can tell muslims they're not allowed to live the way they want than what's to stop the government from continuing down the same road?

Just because he was a white boy does not make him a Christian:

Religious beliefs[edit]

"McVeigh was raised Roman Catholic.[91] During his childhood, he and his father attended Mass regularly.[92] McVeigh was confirmed at the Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York, in 1985.[93] In a 1996 interview, McVeigh professed belief in "a God", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs."[91] In McVeigh's biography American Terrorist, released in 2002, he stated that he did not believe in a hell and that science is his religion.[94][95] In June 2001, a day before the execution, McVeigh wrote a letter to the Buffalo News identifying himself as agnostic. However, he took the Last Rites, administered by a priest, just before his execution.[96][97][98][99][100][101]"

Every white terrorist in the US has not been a Christian, they are either from a cult or a KKK church, none of which are recognized as Christian. 

 

[George Wallace]

my serious problem is bigotry. Take that as you will.

Obviously you think I am one, and conversely are making yourself look like one to me.  That is my take.

 

[Remius]

Every white terrorist in the US has not been a Christian, they are either from a cult or a KKK church, none of which are recognized as Christian.

Isn't that the same as a Muslim decrying ISIS as not truly being Islamic?

The KKK and those Cults all claim Christian virtues and values at their core.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

Just because he was a white boy does not make him a Christian:

Religious beliefs[edit]

"McVeigh was raised Roman Catholic.[91] During his childhood, he and his father attended Mass regularly.[92] McVeigh was confirmed at the Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York, in 1985.[93] In a 1996 interview, McVeigh professed belief in "a God", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs."[91] In McVeigh's biography American Terrorist, released in 2002, he stated that he did not believe in a hell and that science is his religion.[94][95] In June 2001, a day before the execution, McVeigh wrote a letter to the Buffalo News identifying himself as agnostic. However, he took the Last Rites, administered by a priest, just before his execution.[96][97][98][99][100][101]"

Every white terrorist in the US has not been a Christian, they are either from a cult or a KKK church, none of which are recognized as Christian.

Ok. I guess the follow along question is why does it matter if the killings were religious based or not? The fellow who conducted the Orlando attack was stated to not be a strong muslim in the same way that McVeigh was not a strong Christian. The problem isn't "muslims" or any of their related apparel, the problem is with why people are conducting attacks (even in the case of muslims they're not always religious inspired). Banning a piece of clothing does literally nothing to stop any future attack on France, but it sure helps disenfranchise muslims and drive them further from the nation.

Even just grouping all muslims together is counter-productive. That's why Donald Trump's call to ban muslim's is stupid- what have muslims from Malaysia done? Bosnians? Turks?

There's a distinct cultural difference between Persians, Saudi's, Egyptians, Somalians, etc or between religious sects (Shia, Sunni, etc). We are better to determine the root individual causes that drive people towards these acts (mental illness, disenfranchisement, etc) than to focus on what god someone prays to. The VAST majority of muslims are integrated into Canadian society. Outliers exist in any religious or ethnic grouping, so what is the use in profiling or banning a piece of cloth? The west is better than this.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

Obviously you think I am one, and conversely are making yourself look like one to me.  That is my take.

Yes, my stating that the west should be tolerant of other cultures, celebrate individual freedom, and not take away people's charter rights because, as you stated, they aren't "us" demonstrates my inherent bigotry. Ditto for suggesting that we not group entire religious groups together and conduct collective punishments and ban pieces of cloth because they make people uncomfortable when we literally allow any other form of clothing to be worn anywhere.

 

[Jed]

BG 45

You state this... 'Banning a piece of clothing does literally nothing to stop any future attack on France, but it sure helps disenfranchise muslims and drive them further from the nation.

Even just grouping all muslims together is counter-productive. That's why Donald Trump's call to ban muslim's is stupid- what have muslims from Malaysia done? Bosnians? Turks? '


Some countries people and / or government disagree with your premise. They may see it as punitive action ' pour encorage les autres' or something to that effect.

I disagree with these measures but France is not my country and who am I to pontificate on what works in their part of the world.

 

[Lumber]

I disagree with these measures but France is not my country and who am I to pontificate on what works in their part of the world.

You're a member of an online discussion forum... that pontificating is literally all you can do in this capacity...lol

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ882QYzr-M


Sorry! This thread needed that at this point.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

BG 45

You state this... 'Banning a piece of clothing does literally nothing to stop any future attack on France, but it sure helps disenfranchise muslims and drive them further from the nation.

Even just grouping all muslims together is counter-productive. That's why Donald Trump's call to ban muslim's is stupid- what have muslims from Malaysia done? Bosnians? Turks? '


Some countries people and / or government disagree with your premise. They may see it as punitive action ' pour encorage les autres' or something to that effect.

I disagree with these measures but France is not my country and who am I to pontificate on what works in their part of the world.

People can disagree all they want, that's their right. Same as it's their right to wear what clothing they want, pray or not pray to whatever god they want, and associate with whoever they want.

The thread is called "Islam and Western Society" so I assume that this is the proper forum for discussing islam in France

 

[Bass ackwards]

I'm legitimately curious as to what exactly you think is being forced on you or us for that matter.  So we are letting honour killings happen in Canada? I'm pretty sure we have laws against that don't we? 

I think, when we are either unwilling or afraid to criticize the culture that brings honour killings to this country, then we are enabling them. Yes, they are illegal here. For now.

I had a long Queeg-like rant detailing all the ways I think multiculturalism is being forced on us, but I blanked it all. Too much spittle.
Maybe you don't hear the same "all whites are racist, only whites are racist, no person of colour can ever possibly be a violent criminal or just a general douchebag" mantra that I seem to get on a daily basis from the CBC.

 

[AbdullahD]

I wish to just touch on a few things;
1- punishing innocent people for the acts of terrorism
2- religious requirements of the 'burkini'
3- extremism in other religions.

(1) I think this has been fairly well covered by others, but I will still kick it again. By punishing and oppressing Muslim women, France is creating another avenue for extremist groups to radicalize Muslims in France and elsewhere.

http://www.voanews.com/a/radical-islamists-try-to-exploit-islamophobia-101592048/124570.html

  I think and believe from my limited understanding of extremism, the routes thereto and the social sciences.. that the sisters who want to go to a public beach and swim in Burkini's as they are called are hardly needing to be feared. I think they are exhibiting good Islamic and secular values, in the sense that "See this is my belief to cover myself and not show my body off, but your belief is that you need to show off your body and yet we can both be on the same beach together. Because what you believe doesn't affect what I believe and we can coexist"

But by banning Burkini's you are punishing sisters who for the most part peacefully share the beaches of France with others and are not creating issues.

Not to mention you also make it a powerful symbol. If you follow the link, you can hear the tone and see how this could be used..  I am personally fairly right wing politically.. but I think the left could use this to easily garner themselves more political clout.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37062354

Then you get bigoted dialogue, demonizing all Muslims by the 'right', a 'left' that does not wish to address any issues at all due to upsetting the 'Muslims' and their sympathizers and then you will see this mess get worse. If the answers you are picking from are either ban it all or let them do whatever... you will not get a good result.

Let us normal regular every day Muslims dress how we want, because.. it won't hurt you.. unless my sexy thobe distracts you and you crash your car let us pray and fast and contribute to society...

But those Muslims (and any other religion or ideology) that want to hurt the innocent people or propagate hatred or generally just be criminal.. reign holy hell down upon them. Jail them, execute them and shut them down. But leave us normal people alone.. let our women wear burkinis if they want and niqabs etc.

(2) A womens 'awrah' with evidences
https://islamqa.info/en/82994

A wiki link
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intimate_parts_in_Islam

Without evidences
http://askimam.org/public/question_detail/28533

A neat link of swim wear just cause (seriously just cause, I found it while looking for something else)
http://www.victoriana.com/library/Beach/FashionableBathingSuits.htm

Now the two fatawa links are for those who believe it is obligatory under Islam to wear Burkini's, it is an accepted part of Islam that the majority of scholars stand behind. But! That does not mean that their are not other opinions out there too, I was simply supplying evidences proving it is a part of Islam for a very many ie most Muslims.

Now something I find interesting is those that cry 'pc' all the time... a lot of them are amongst those who have allowed 'political correctness' to flourish in either the way they raised their children, voted, lobbied against the government etc (you go 60's flower power lol). So I consider them a party to the extreme political correctness movements, because they have allowed it to establish itself in the collective consciousness of north Americans and Europeans.

But, I could definetly cry PC myself when the anti PC guys cry that Muslims are not being culturally correct (cc), that we dont dress act or behave how they like... ie the anti pc crowd wants to limit the liberty of a certain party just because they do not like it... I think the days of isolation are over, white, yellow, red, black or brown are going to be mixed. White kids will marry black or brown or what have you kids, our children or grand or great grandchildren may end up being 'mixed' blood kids. This horse is already out of the gate and it is not coming back. Extreme Political correctness is bad and extreme cultural correctness is wrong too.

The world that is coming will be vastly different then the world of a hundred years ago or more and we must, no we need to decide what our legacy will be. Will our collective legacy be of hatred and fear or of understanding and love? Can me and my Muslim friends not be considered 'western'? We love to hunt, we love our neighbors, our kids, wives etc, we vote, we contribute etc we just pray 5 times a day, cover our bodies more (generally), we fast, we give charity and we believe in one god... why can't this be western too? Why do we have to be feared because our clothing is different? These sisters swimming on the beach, are not hurting people, so let them be... otherwise after the government finishes taking liberties from Muslims/Jews/whoever you may find they come for you next.

(3)

A link for starters;
http://aattp.org/here-are-8-christian-terrorist-organizations-that-equal-isis/

So daesh claims to be muslim, they deal drugs and kill people...

The italian mafia claims to be catholics, they deal drugs and kill people.

Google link, because to much exists.
https://www.google.ca/search?client=ms-android-bell-ca&ei=qFS_V9rHKI_GjwOt-6ngDw&q=the+catholic+connection+to+the+mafia&oq=the+catholic+connection+to+the+mafia&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.12..35i39k1.5980.6219.0.8387.3.3.0.0.0.0.207.368.0j1j1.2.0....0...1c.1j4.64.mobile-gws-serp..1.2.366...30i10k1.r-emj5TGqss

And other religions... so im not unfair...
https://www.google.ca/search?client=ms-android-bell-ca&ei=OZO_V93QBNHejwO4hqnYAQ&q=buddhist+extremists&oq=budhist+extrem&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.1.0.0i10k1l5.21081.24466.0.25686.16.15.1.3.3.0.167.1537.5j9.14.0....0...1c.1j4.64.mobile-gws-serp..1.15.1281.3..0j35i39k1j0i67k1j0i10i67k1.0-B_K58wpTM

https://www.google.ca/search?client=ms-android-bell-ca&ei=VJO_V6ChGZbWjwOKzJaICg&q=hindu+extremists&oq=hindu+extremists&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.3..0i67k1j0i7i30k1l3j0.51414.54027.0.54490.14.12.0.0.0.0.325.1539.2j8j0j1.11.0....0...1c.1j4.64.mobile-gws-serp..7.7.1077.rgZgRJmY68A

https://www.google.ca/search?client=ms-android-bell-ca&ei=jJO_V8adGofSjwOVhazgBg&q=sikh+extremists&oq=sikh+extremists&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.3..0i7i30k1l2j0l2j0i30k1.24583.26640.0.27004.10.9.0.0.0.0.200.1048.2j5j1.8.0....0...1c.1j4.64.mobile-gws-serp..5.5.720...0i67k1.xnpl1sRM2NQ

https://www.google.ca/search?client=ms-android-bell-ca&ei=qZO_V4PWBJPAjwPBibXQCg&q=jewish+extremists&oq=jewish+extremists&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.3..0i67k1j0i7i30k1l3j0i67k1.15975.18177.0.18589.11.11.0.0.0.0.201.1097.4j5j1.10.0....0...1c.1j4.64.mobile-gws-serp..3.8.890.ftFiMtT1R2Y

Central african 'christian' extremists mass behead people nsfw
http://heavy.com/news/2015/12/anti-balaka-christian-extremism-terrorism-central-african-republic-car-africa-mass-muslim-islam-execution-behead-murder-mass-grave-genocide-uncensored-youtube/

Now I personally believe the Mafia reflects upon christians, just about as much as AQ or Daesh do. Ie not at all. But to claim there are no Christian's out there slaughtering people is incorrect.

I think for the laymen extremists in a poor country, his economic status is a huge factor in so called radicalization. Ie he just needs money, so all these idiots in syria, Afghanistan, CAR etc are motivated more by money... if they all had comfortable lifestyles I suspect the rates of radicalization would reflect the rates that are seen in western countries. So if we can band together militarily exterminate extremists, then rebuild the infrastructure and educate the people, we can eliminate extremism. But without all three legs of this plan it will fall. Pure military power won't win, even coupled with infrastructure, we need to do all three and educate the next generation to eradicate this disease.

Attacking Muslims is tatmount to attacking Islam to a very many people, which ticks them off and adds fuel to this problem.

So instead of making it an issue of us vs them or west vs Islam or whatever. We should just find common ground and work together, banning burqinis, niqabs, ramadan etc just makes the gap both our parties need to jump bigger.

In my humble opinion, 'the west' is not defined by the clothes we wear, the food we eat, the religions we observe. It is defined by the idea and ideals of freedom, whether it be of movement or religion, the west means that every life is sacred and no one is better then the other. It means democracy, the freedom to voice objections safely etc etc etc

These are what we should defend as the 'west' our clothes, food and religions may change over time, but we need to leave something bigger behind and I for one do not want to leave a legacy of fighting behind. So leave us alone and go after the true problem and it is not the burqini or niqab or beard.

Abdullah

 

[Brad Sallows]

If people are carrying on with habits and practices which they've indulged for years here with no prior hoopla, there isn't much practical reason to suddenly start objecting.

If people are suddenly taking an interest in atypical habits and practices to make a cultural point, then it is an exercise in cultural dick-waving / triumphalism and therefore undeserving of the usual respect and tolerance, because they are making the aggressive first step to get up someone's nose.

There is a risk to the stability of our extremely liberal (free, permissive) culture inherent in over-reacting with totalitarian instincts and responses.  But there is also a risk to the stability of our extremely liberal culture inherent in tolerating behaviours and practices which militate against liberal values and attitudes.  Ours is a liberalized, westernized culture.  Keep it that way.  Those who prefer other cultures: go where they are and live that way.

I don't know whether the women who wear garments out of fear of the men in their clan outnumber the women who wear garments because they genuinely wish to, so I don't know whether this sudden expressive modesty fad should be regarded as a problem.  I do know, with certainty, that it is unwise to always grant the benefit of doubt where a substantial undercurrent of compulsion may exist.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I just want to see their face. If I have to deal with you, I want to look you in the eye. Other than that, I don't care if you walk around in a full wetsuit.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Abdullah what's your views on public swimming pools having their schedules changed around to male only and female only swim times in order to accommodate cultural sensitivity?  (or gym etc..)

As well what about situations where students want male or female only teachers and instructors in order to accommodate their cultural beliefs?